External Synths and Sequencers - Still Not Working?

[Bri1]

I'm running 256 samples buffersize right now, because with less I sometimes run out of juice with some of my more VST intensive projects.
But no matter how high the round trip latency, REAPER should definitely be able to compensate for it.

256 samples is not tooo bad eh? the problem with realtime audio is always going to be delay--even with a great computer--the soundcard interfacing cannot play back as soon as heard--even the best interfaces have fractional delays--it's the nature of sound and how it's processed since time..
TBH- your probably better off doing all your tracking/recording using the bare essentials-- just like the good 'ol dayzzz--then do your tweaking and super dooper processing tricks and effects with that recorded material afterwards?
I find it's much better when good plug_ins come with really good effects onboard--some plugs does any needed compensating before it even hits a fader.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by Doc Brown

Your little experiment is irrelevant as you have zero instances of Diva in "devine mode".

Where can I buy that?

It sounds like it must be reeely good if it will bring my machine to it's knees!!!

[Bri1]

It sounds like it must be reeely good if it will bring my machine to it's knees!!!

Lol--hmm what sample rate do you track/work @?- suggest changing s.rate to 192khz-- then post a report of same set up> please.?
Try any multitimbral sample player at 192khz-hit more than 10keys at any 1 time --without-- effects >>and see how that taxes your system--or,not.?

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by Bri1

Lol--hmm what sample rate do you track/work @?- suggest changing s.rate to 192khz-- then post a report of same set up> please.?
Try any multitimbral sample player at 192khz-hit more than 10keys at any 1 time --without-- effects >>and see how that taxes your system--or,not.?

I attempted using 24/96 once since my 17 year old Delta 2496 cards will let me set it like that. I got a few tracks of audio and then started getting artifacts. I did like seeing that it was giving me 1.0ms latency, but was less happy only getting three audio tracks.

I'm totally happy with 24/44 and never having any audio problems. Running out of memory is about the only thing I have to watch if loading huge Superior Drummer kits, but I'm moving away from that and using acoustic drums with mics again, so even that's not really a problem for me currently.

[Bri1]

I attempted using 24/96 once since my 17 year old Delta 2496 cards will let me set it like that. I got a few tracks of audio and then started getting artifacts. I did like seeing that it was giving me 1.0ms latency, but was less happy only getting three audio tracks.

Ya kno-my bro swears by mixing @ 44.1 as well-just sticks to that always,but even with his quite powerfull pc-some projects do start to choke at that s.rate with lots of voices all going on.
I stick to mixing @48/24 but for 'finalizing or hq rendering' normally go for 96k 32b renders---buffer set to rec @ 5-20ms on an emu card--but i got multicard setup--so that's nice for use and mixing rates/interfaces on the fly.
Powers of 2.
MIDI is so old now it's not even funny-- external syncing has always been a pita from experiences had so far..

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by Bri1

Ya kno-my bro swears by mixing @ 44.1 as well-just sticks to that always,but even with his quite powerfull pc-some projects do start to choke at that s.rate with lots of voices all going on.
I stick to mixing @48/24 but for 'finalizing or hq rendering' normally go for 96k 32b renders---buffer set to rec @ 5-20ms on an emu card--but i got multicard setup--so that's nice for use and mixing rates/interfaces on the fly.
Powers of 2.
MIDI is so old now it's not even funny-- external syncing has always been a pita from experiences had so far..

I've thought about trying 24/48, and my machine while getting pretty old, could probably pull that off, and I'd be industry standard for video. Thing is though, I can glob on FX all day long, and never worry about it, so I'm real hesitant to fix that which ain't broke!

MIDI's baud rate is still slower than a dog slow old modem. A mind numbing 31250 baud. Hehe, I once wrote a librarian program for my little briefcase Commodore SX64 in BASIC, but it was too slow to keep up with that baud rate and lost bytes of data. Then I tried compiling my BASIC program, which was better and still failed.

I then bought a 6502 assembler package and re-coded my app in assembly code. Finally it could do reliable MIDI SysEx dumps back and forth between all my MIDI synths and computer.

Then I expanded it to have random number generators for every parameter on one of my Sequential Circuits synths, and with all the number generators running, you could hit space bar and it would transmit all the random data to the edit buffer of the synth, as if you had turned all the knobs. If you liked the sound, the librarian could store it to either floppy disk, or in the synth, and if you didn't like the random patch, you could just hit space bar again. Kinda like playing a slot machine in Las Vegas! <g>

-

[evosilica]

Originally Posted by Bri1

256 samples is not tooo bad eh?

Well it leads to about 20ms delay between external sources and internal VSTis.
In the context of electronic music, this is unacceptable.

Originally Posted by Bri1

the problem with realtime audio is always going to be delay--even with a great computer--the soundcard interfacing cannot play back as soon as heard--even the best interfaces have fractional delays--it's the nature of sound and how it's processed since time..

I'm well aware of that. Reaper just needs to delay all other tracks by the same amount to make them line up and everything would be fine.

Originally Posted by Bri1

TBH- your probably better off doing all your tracking/recording using the bare essentials-- just like the good 'ol dayzzz--

Like I could also just use a tape machine and one mic - like in the good old days

Originally Posted by Bri1

then do your tweaking and super dooper processing tricks and effects with that recorded material afterwards?

Unfortunately that's not how I want to work at all, as processing interacts with the source, which many times requires adjustments at the source again.

"Tweaking and super dooper processing tricks" are an essential part of the "music" I want to make. My music is 5% actual composition and 95% sound design.
Many may think this is garbage, but that's the way I want to do things
Not to mention that MIDI clock sync is messed up as well, no matter if i use any fx or not.

I'm starting to feel stupid about mentioning ableton live all the time, as I'm really not a fan of live at all, but what I want to do works perfectly fine with live, so I'm using it as an argument that what I critique here should absolutely be fixable.

I realize that it's not a top priority for many.

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by evosilica

As soon as I add plugins on the master track that introduce latency

Ok, the thing about REAPER is that one does not simply use the master track for, like, anything. Putting plugins on it wrecks the added latency party trick (or as they call it "anticipative fx processing"). Plugins on the master also use more CPU than in other DAWs, so the workaround is to put a stereo bus before the master and place end-of-chain plugins there.

Did you know that the program was actually called WEAPER in the beginning? Workaround Environment for Audio Problems, Exasperation and Regressions? Guess they decided that wasn't very marketable :shrug:

Anyway, the devs don't use synths, hard or soft, so don't expect them to work well anytime soon.

[evosilica]

Wow, that is one cynical post

Originally Posted by noise_construct

Ok, the thing about REAPER is that one does not simply use the master track for, like, anything. Putting plugins on it wrecks the added latency party trick (or as they call it "anticipative fx processing"). Plugins on the master also use more CPU than in other DAWs

If I stay completely ITB I'm ok with it as it is right now. But you're right, having too much stuff on the master can slow things down overproportionally (not much multithreading going on).

[IRONY] But as we all know, you're not supposed to do this anyway, because the mastering engineer is in charge of that [/IRONY]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

Anyway, the devs don't use synths, hard or soft, so don't expect them to work well anytime soon.

My softsynths work perfectly fine but regarding hardware I'm afraid this could be true ...

[noise_construct]

Originally Posted by evosilica

Wow, that is one cynical post

Well I have a reputation to maintain ;-) Facts peppered with something extra over the top for the fanboys to rip their pantalones on.

Bussing everything before the master track could help with the latency issue.

There's also a per-track setting (r-click on the record monitor icon) "Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items" that you could test, iirc that helped with audio recordings of VSTis, never tested it on hw as like you said, in Live this shit just works. Maybe if you're tracking through some plugin FX it could play a role.

[Luster]

Originally Posted by evosilica

So you don't have any timing issues with external MIDI gear in reaper at all? Everythings perfectly on beat? How did you do this? Teach me, master

Reagarding workflow - yes, I prefer reaper by a mile. That's why I'm here ranting and not silently switching to Live

My problem with Ableton wasn't just workflow. Every time you change something regarding the plugin delay compensation in the project the offset of midi sequenced (track from Live) external synths are off and now with another value. So the groove relation between tracks when you change plugins is constantly changing.

I tested my setup again with Reaper and it's way more predictable. I have 2 ms delay in the audio recording and this doesn't change with any plugin load on the track itself, another track, the folder track, the master track - only when I put something on the input FX. Why the input FX aren't compensated is still a mystery to me.

I am open for further testing. Just tell me what to do.

Edit: BTW the input FX are now also delay compensated in the recording which is a great way of using plugins like hardware inserts on your recording chain.

[Germps112]

Originally Posted by noise_construct

Well I have a reputation to maintain ;-) Facts peppered with something extra over the top for the fanboys to rip their pantalones on.

Bussing everything before the master track could help with the latency issue.

There's also a per-track setting (r-click on the record monitor icon) "Preserve PDC delayed monitoring in recorded items" that you could test, iirc that helped with audio recordings of VSTis, never tested it on hw as like you said, in Live this shit just works. Maybe if you're tracking through some plugin FX it could play a role.

Feiking fanboys xD guitarplayers..drumheads

[zakwax]

Hello

I have to admit i'm still not sold on Reaper but I do like to persevere with it because you hear great things about it... but it just seems I always run into silly problems that stop you dead in your tracks and then.. Boom! the creative streak has just disappeared again.

My issue this time is my external synth ( Sub 37) is having probs with Reaper.
I play in midi and it is fine ...soon as the item is looping and I start to move controls on the 37 it all goes pear shaped..

I have tried resetting in the Midi devices preference ..switching 37 on/off... and a few of the other things but can't sort it....I thought maybe it was the synth playing up so I tried it in Logic & Ableton and it works like a charm.

Please can somebody shed some light on this ...something I feel that is so basic.... its so fustrating!

[Indirect]

Originally Posted by zakwax

Hello

I have to admit i'm still not sold on Reaper but I do like to persevere with it because you hear great things about it... but it just seems I always run into silly problems that stop you dead in your tracks and then.. Boom! the creative streak has just disappeared again.

My issue this time is my external synth ( Sub 37) is having probs with Reaper.
I play in midi and it is fine ...soon as the item is looping and I start to move controls on the 37 it all goes pear shaped..

I have tried resetting in the Midi devices preference ..switching 37 on/off... and a few of the other things but can't sort it....I thought maybe it was the synth playing up so I tried it in Logic & Ableton and it works like a charm.

Please can somebody shed some light on this ...something I feel that is so basic.... its so fustrating!

Probable problems: midi loop. In/auto/off should fix it. Also it might be it plays back already recorded midi info. Maybe split midi into 2 tracks? 1 - only notes . 2 - only cc's. You would need to figure out normal and overdub record for each one. Filter data on input. Save as template and reuse as long as yiu have sub37.

[zakwax]

Originally Posted by Indirect

Probable problems: midi loop. In/auto/off should fix it. Also it might be it plays back already recorded midi info. Maybe split midi into 2 tracks? 1 - only notes . 2 - only cc's. You would need to figure out normal and overdub record for each one. Filter data on input. Save as template and reuse as long as yiu have sub37.

Thanks for getting back I appreciate it...

Have to admit tho Im scratching my head ...To play my Sub 37 and tweak some controls I have to do these steps? Really?!...why would I do that? I logically will just have it simple and carry on in Logic or Ableton.

I honestly thought it was some preference setting or external midi instrument I might of not known about or missed.

As I said tho thanks for the quick reply Indirect... I use my Sub 37 heavily its a beast... I don't think i'll be going round the houses like that.