Old 04-18-2021, 02:32 PM   #1
AZpercussion
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Default Plugin pin connector discussion

+ VST/JSFX: add option in pin connector dialog I/O menu to pass through or zero out unused output channels

There was added an option in v6.27 to pass through signal or zero out in the plugin pin connector.
But it is unfinished and needs to discuss.

First I want to talk about main function, and second about managing pin connector.

1) Look at the picture. For now we have no intuitive and no flexible system.

There is two very similar results (in fact the same) at different marked states. With new option or without.

But we can have logically clear and functionality flexible system.



Also right routing behaviour maybe represented such way:




Let's talk about routing cases.
1. General - signal comes in, changes, and comes out. All right.

2. Signal comes in, but no out.
It could be useful for parallel fx, to sum several threads on other channel.
It useful for side-chain to avoid sums side-chain signals on bus track and avoid worrying what channel used for side-chain.
This was described recently by ferropop: https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...19&postcount=2

By the way, currently tails from parallel chains go to parent track.
And i need to use for side-chain may be 9/10 or higher channels. Channels from 3 to 8 reserved for unuseful mess.

3. This setup usually used for parallel fx, to hang out signal from other channels to this one.

4. Case, when plugin have influence on another channels and should stay bypassed on this ones.
Useful for parallel fx as well.
And for exclusive effects. Such as different reverbs for left and right ch, different compression, eq, especially in surround mixes, if i whant to detach center or sides.



Currently I have no beautiful solution for a simple task.
Here is an example.
Multichannel music need to compressed in center by side-chain compressor looking at SFX. Then, their sum - ME need to compressed in center channel. Also with side-chain, but looking at DX track.
So, compressor should skip non marked channels, but zero out on channels with marked inputs and no outputs.
But for now i have such situation:

Option to pass through: side-chains sums.




Zero out option: only 3 channel plays.





2) Management
Although the system described above is best, I guess, and should be default, old behaviour should stay for compatibility with old projects.

For now the pins state saves in plugin presets. The same I expect with option, which influence to result of pins state.
To change it by hands and remember about - just waste energy.

UPDATE:
Forgot about small feature for management
It will be more comfortable if plugins with non-standard routing will marked by color.
Non standard means anything that differs from diagonal:



Maybe like this:



Superuseful for understanding old and anothers projects.

Last edited by AZpercussion; 04-19-2021 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 04-18-2021, 02:49 PM   #2
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This is very thoughtful, but the behavior would be ambiguous with plugins (instruments) that have no inputs. I think what you're really asking for is a way to control the pass through or zero out behavior per-channel.
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Old 04-19-2021, 12:40 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
This is very thoughtful, but the behavior would be ambiguous with plugins (instruments) that have no inputs. I think what you're really asking for is a way to control the pass through or zero out behavior per-channel.
Hmm, currently we can hear signal from audio items on a track with instrument plugins. No matter what option checked, pass through or zero out. That's useful behaviour.

And my suggestion differs from current zero out mode only in one state, when both input and output unmarked.

How this interferes with instrumental plugins?
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Old 04-19-2021, 12:51 AM   #4
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Per-channel control in theory very flexible. But too complicated.
And it's management will be a lot complicated.

It could be as extension, but more important to have user friendly defaults.

I don't see any reason to mute channel if plugin unchecked on this channel at all.
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Old 04-19-2021, 05:47 AM   #5
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I thought maybe pre channel could be done with a mouse modifier click and some kind of visual indicator?
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Old 04-19-2021, 09:47 AM   #6
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I added a small visual feature for management in the end of main post.
Non-standard routing should be seen for a distance.
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Old 04-19-2021, 02:37 PM   #7
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Default Internal TX mapping confusion and question.

First time blog user here... so I'm not sure how to aim my questions. (Actually, It's been so long I forgot) This thread seems to be somewhat close, though.

What I'm trying to do is put the Reacomp in a feedback mode with a custom filter in place of the detector Hi-Lo pass filter. Is this even possible?

I'm using Ver. 6.27
thanks.
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Old 04-25-2021, 04:07 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefivestring View Post
First time blog user here... so I'm not sure how to aim my questions. (Actually, It's been so long I forgot) This thread seems to be somewhat close, though.

What I'm trying to do is put the Reacomp in a feedback mode with a custom filter in place of the detector Hi-Lo pass filter. Is this even possible?

I'm using Ver. 6.27
thanks.
As I can understand, it isn't possible. But ask this in general forum, here is pre-release.
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Old 05-16-2021, 11:56 AM   #9
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Recently I made a song mix with more side cheins, than usual.
And the problem with bleeding sidechein signal to parent track is really made me nervous.

If there's already plugin with side chain on parent track and then you decide to send side chain to any track inside, you need remember about parent one and need to choose other channels except 3/4.
Otherwise you will seek for cause wrong sound and waste your time.

It isn't hard to remember, if you have small simple project. But with brunchy project it becomes a task. Especially if you need return to old project.


The new option to zero out unmpapped outputs may solved that, but alas, it switch off by default and forces to check it every time you add side-chain.
And more. If you want to process some channels exclusively, this option is unusable, because you get silence on channels with unmapped both inputs and outputs.

For those who mix surroud music it is critically important, I guess.

Is there at least one reason for current behaviour?
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Old 05-16-2021, 03:58 PM   #10
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In reference to the upper-channels bleeding up to parent issue:

1. Reaper's approach in giving you full access to the "grid" of connections is awesome, it's very Reaper, and obviously inspires people do do fun and incredible things.
2. It also creates unbelievable complexity when trying to do something extremely simple. When things get in the way of creativity, they are bad.

Every other DAW simply gives you a drop-down from where you choose the sidechain source you'd like to tap. Internally it creates a direct path from that channel to the sidechain of your current plugin. No bleed, no outside interactions, no possibility of error, a literal 1:1 cable connection.

I would super super super strongly vote for the ability of two tracks to be tied to one another in a 1:1 sidechain relationship, mimicking the behaviour of every other DAW. It is SUCH a common workflow that it deserves its own dedicated fool-proof structure.

ex: Yeah the Linux terminal is incredibly powerful, but 99% of the time we're just trying to copy a file to the desktop without worrying about permissions and keeping tabs on pointers. Having both available let's you quickly do simple tasks as well as incredibly profound ones when you need them. To be forced to use the convoluted approach when doing simple things is just not good.

Last edited by ferropop; 05-16-2021 at 06:05 PM.
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Old 05-16-2021, 04:02 PM   #11
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Also I believe the internal lack of 1:1 mapping between channels is going to be a fundamental roadblock in Reaper ever having a functional Effects Rack.
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Old 05-16-2021, 09:32 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Also I believe the internal lack of 1:1 mapping between channels is going to be a fundamental roadblock in Reaper ever having a functional Effects Rack.
There is not necessary 1:1 mapping like in other daws.
If we could have bypass in case both input and output unmapped in zero out mode, and if this mode would by default.

Such way we could get unbleeding side-cheins and other stuff used often.
We will need to switch the pass through option only in case we want to make parallel fx layer and don't want have a splitter plugin in a stack.
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Old 05-17-2021, 11:35 AM   #13
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I guess what I mean is this:

- if something is used in a certain way 99.9% of the time, there's good reason to expose that workflow as solidly and painlessly as possible.

It's the difference between taking an airplane vs a car. Airplane gets you there directly, quickly, reliably - you have a destination and it gets you there. Car gives you the freedom to stop, look around, do some interesting things along the way, but takes longer and there are 101 ways your trip can get complicated/messy along the way.

The way routing works in Reaper is car travel. Infinitely configurable, infinitely crashable into a brick wall on the freeway.
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Old 05-18-2021, 01:34 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
I guess what I mean is this:

- if something is used in a certain way 99.9% of the time, there's good reason to expose that workflow as solidly and painlessly as possible.
Agreed! But here I see a way to reach these 99.9% with current functional and very small optimisation. That's easy for devs and for compatibility caring.
Moreover, this optimisation will have good influence on non 99% cases.
Honestly, for surround work it's really important, no matter about percentage.

It's like a tram, if you want. Safety, already works since 1900x, easy to go out on any stop, clearly to observe the way.

So, here a thread regarding recently added option to zero out unmapped outputs. (That's why in pre-release forum.)

All I want is to show folks that it needs only two small steps for good behaviour.

And what do you think about these:
- let channel be bypassed in zero out mode when input and output unmarked
- make new zero out mode default?
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Old 05-19-2021, 05:05 PM   #15
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Now that the reasurround pan is released.. can the plugin pin connector solve the following issue ? Pls ?

Pls take a look at this video where I explain clearly the problem


https://youtu.be/UEz0qD4rmqg
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Old 05-19-2021, 10:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svijayrathinam View Post
Now that the reasurround pan is released.. can the plugin pin connector solve the following issue ? Pls ?

Pls take a look at this video where I explain clearly the problem


https://youtu.be/UEz0qD4rmqg
Multimono support would be amazing!!
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Old 05-20-2021, 01:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svijayrathinam View Post
Now that the reasurround pan is released.. can the plugin pin connector solve the following issue ? Pls ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonictim View Post
Multimono support would be amazing!!
Have you tried:

MCFX_filter16 in the MCFX suite for 16ch EQ? http://www.matthiaskronlachner.com/?p=1910

MultiEQ & FDNreverb in the IEM suite for up to 64ch EQ & reverb? https://plugins.iem.at/

ED: FDNreverb has 2 shelving filters as per your FR.

Or what other FX do you want?
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Old 05-20-2021, 01:17 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svijayrathinam View Post
Now that the reasurround pan is released.. can the plugin pin connector solve the following issue ? Pls ?

Pls take a look at this video where I explain clearly the problem
https://youtu.be/UEz0qD4rmqg
Svijayrathinam, the multi-mono is useful feature, of course, but here is a thread more about recently added option "zero out unmapped outputs".
Have you difficulties with side-chein signal bleeding to parent track?
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Old 05-20-2021, 04:08 AM   #19
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In complement, I wish we could have access, via new actions, to copy/paste or specific routing manipulations of the FX pins. Would be super usefull.
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Old 07-05-2021, 08:17 AM   #20
AZpercussion
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After great developments with loudness, this thread may be pushed up, I think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
This is very thoughtful, but the behavior would be ambiguous with plugins (instruments) that have no inputs. I think what you're really asking for is a way to control the pass through or zero out behavior per-channel.
Schwa, please answer, what is ambiguous do you mean?

As I understand, the case with instrumental plugins, which have no inputs, is exception for current system too.

Anyway it's looks non-:contradictory if plugin have no inputs, its signal should be added to signal on mapped channel, otherwise, it should be routed as I suggested above.
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