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Old 03-08-2018, 04:22 AM   #41
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Great, thanks !!
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:02 AM   #42
edding
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The migration to reaper its beeing very frustrating becouse of this lack. It's a core functionality in a lot of profesionals workflows, and that's why the other DAWS implement it:

Protools : Playlist
Samplitude : Revolver Tracks
Logic Pro X: Track Alternatives
Cubase : Track Version
Studio one : Layers
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Old 04-06-2018, 01:07 AM   #43
edding
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobobo View Post
i.m.o. all core features are implemented already.
playlist is nice to have, but core?

And we don't have any certainty, there will be any future, i'm afraid.

we'll see.
I think we can consider a core feature something that more of 90% of other serious DAWs implement:

Protools : Playlist
Samplitude : Revolver Tracks
Logic Pro X: Track Alternatives
Cubase : Track Version
Studio one : Layers
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Old 04-06-2018, 06:04 AM   #44
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What is a "serious DAW"?
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Old 04-07-2018, 01:48 AM   #45
edding
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
What is a "serious DAW"?
Sorry, no intention to flaming for my side.


For me serious just mean the most important options in the market according to functionality/support/reliability. Every Item on the list i think that meet this definition. But is just my opinion.
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:29 AM   #46
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... but you suggest just a single DAW for each item. i.e. not 90% but (if they are not more of them) 20%.

OTOH, there are hundreds of features Reaper offers, that 90% of the other DAWs don't have (Supposedly this kind of saying is true for any DAW...)

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 04-07-2018 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 04-07-2018, 11:15 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
... but you suggest just a single DAW for each item. i.e. not 90% but (if they are not more of them) 20%.

-Michael
Well, yes, every item in the list i wrote is a single DAW that implements the feature 'playlist' we are talking about on this thread. Every DAW of this list named this feature in a different way, but is the same concept at the end.

What i really wanted to remark is not only a Protools feature, its a common feature of the DAWs i wrote in the list. IMHO this list is representative of the professional audio production DAWs that actually are on the market.

Why a lot of DAWs implement a concrete feature is not a random matter, when they meet like this, usually it's becouse is useful feature for differents workflows
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Old 04-07-2018, 12:13 PM   #48
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There are actually more DAWs out there that DON'T have that feature, than the ones that do. Yet they are all used to produce music, and in some cases even worldwide hits, too, believe it or not. So don't pull the elitist "professional audio production" crap here, please.
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Old 04-07-2018, 12:19 PM   #49
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EvilDragon, I don't understand why you're so narrow-minded when it comes to new workflows. It seems like you're defending the status quo and don't want to get yourself into new things.
No offense, but there often comes across the opinion: "reaper doesn't already have it, so reaper doesn't need it".
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Old 04-07-2018, 12:36 PM   #50
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In fact improvement on Reaper should first of all benefit Reaper users. So "this other DAW has it" is not an argument (but also of course not a conter-argument).

-Michael
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Old 04-07-2018, 03:40 PM   #51
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I'm not defending the status quo, I am countering a weak argument.
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Old 04-08-2018, 01:38 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emarsk View Post
I think it's unlikely that this feature can be satisfactorily scripted, it should be implemented natively.

The big point that the script is missing is presenting the playlists as lanes where I can see what's going on and move clips around (is there even a way to move single clips from a playlist to another with that script?).

The great thing about Pro Tools playlists is that they are very simple, very flexible, and very intuitive.

The big drawbacks of the Reaper take system are mainly two: you can't have takes of different lengths (and - by extension - you can't have empty space in a take), and you can't freely move takes independently from each other and in and out of the take lanes. Fix these points - natively - and we'll have a vastly superior and more flexible comping system (probably very similar to Tracktion's, I guess, which would be great).

.
thank you for your productive contribution.

Yes it's really interesting how Protools handle it using lanes.
In Samplitude (Revolver Tracks) is impossible to see all "track versions" in the same screen. The only guide you have is the name of the "revolver track" you wrote and go switching and hearing one by one.

I think Reaper can handle it in a nice way, becouse the concept is hierarchically superior to reaper takes. So the good new is you don't need to modify how reaper takes works.

You can make a comping of a track using takes like always. Then use the track as whole (toggle option "show takes in lanes" to off)
Playlist is just a collection of this allready comped track, preserving different envelopes, insert FX, etc..

Indeed now is possible to fake it using a third party "SWS Resources extension" track templates. The bad thing, is that all "playlist" become to be global to all projects, and it start to be a mess when you have a lot of different projects.

But the option to graphically see all the playlist content (in this case tracks) that you are talking about could be a killer!

Last edited by edding; 04-08-2018 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 04-08-2018, 02:11 AM   #53
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@edding, didn't you see this? https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=203828
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Old 04-08-2018, 02:29 AM   #54
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There is a certainly a bit of protectionism in these forums, probably not innocent myself.
In terms of this FR, I have no idea if this is feasable to implement coding wise. But man, track groups/playlist style workflow just totally slays item groups in certain situations, it just does...
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Old 04-08-2018, 03:43 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
Yes, thank you. @Sexan is making a good job. I was in this thread trying to help
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Old 04-17-2018, 10:34 AM   #56
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Gotta give my +1 vote for this feature. I do appreciate all the work that's gone into the scripting shown in this thread, but I agree with the idea of this being a core feature. It's super-useful and I use the corresponding feature in Cubase (Track Versions), Pro Tools (Playlists) and even Studio One (Track Layers). Would be wonderful to have this capability in Reaper, and would go hand-in-hand with the current lanes implementation. Would also be really great if this applied to other track types like tempo map, etc... I have found it useful in Cubase, where you can have Track Versions of pretty much any track type and do some creative exploration that in other DAWs would require many extra steps or lots of copying and pasting.
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:19 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang View Post
EvilDragon, I don't understand why you're so narrow-minded when it comes to new workflows. It seems like you're defending the status quo and don't want to get yourself into new things.
No offense, but there often comes across the opinion: "reaper doesn't already have it, so reaper doesn't need it".
Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to come here and accuse someone of being narrowminded when your entire intention is to convince an entire community of people that the software they use should cater to your preferred workflow simply because you are the one who can't open your mind enough to adapt to a different workflow?

I've used both ProTools playlist features, and Reapers take system, and I prefer Reapers take system by and large. I simply do not understand the hate it gets. Every take is there for you to see. Comping is as simple as clicking the take you want to make active. I suppose "advanced" comping requires a bit of knowledge about how to edit audio or manipulate takes and items in Reaper, and maybe how to autopunch or something, but I've never found any of these actions so "tedious" that its made me want to move to another DAW, or long for the way another DAW does it.

I seriously feel like people aren't taking the time to understand editing shortcuts and features of Reaper that make comping painless, and I guess that's kind of indicative of what turns off newcomers to Reaper so frequently; the fact that Reaper has tons of ways of doing things that aren't necessarily immediately apparent, and you need to really do your homework up front in order to be able to more easily do things quickly in Reaper.

It seems to me like everyone who comes to Reaper from Protools and complains about the take system is just annoyed that they need to learn how the take system works or something. I sincerely cannot find a way in which playlists are so superior to Reapers take system as to warrant the amount of complaining I see so frequently about it, to the point where people literally say its the reason why they haven't switched over. Seriously? Of all the things Reaper offers up front that are so much more convenient you're going to complain that learning a different comping workflow and adapting to it is really the thing that's holding you back? Sounds like a bad case of RTFM, because I'm preeeeety darn sure if I had an "edit-off" with someone on ProTools and myself on Reaper, I could acheive the same results in relatively the same amount of time, except maybe in some rare instances (and even then, if I could just know what the case is, Im sure I could create a few shortcuts and macros to make the process just as fast).

The only thing I can't speak to is specific instances, perhaps where there's something that playlists can do that Reapers take system simply cannot, just implemented in a different manner, and I've yet to see that example.

The reason I typed so much about this is because I feel this is a seriously silly argument that gets wayyyy too much focus, and I feel like too much energy is spent arguing the case that Reaper NEEDS to have a playlist function when ProTools is practically the only DAW that has it, and Reapers take management system is perfectly functional. For some reason, forum after forum, thread after thread its like the one argument keeps people hovering around switching, and coddling people with "well, maybe Cockos will add it soon!" is just pointless. Its different software. Expect different methodologies and embrace them instead of complaining that it doesn't work the way the other tools do. An ounce of research will show you that the take system is just as powerful as playlists, and there are all kinds of scripts and options to customize the experience for you.

Man, talk about a practical non-issue.
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Old 08-01-2018, 10:26 PM   #58
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Some people dig Reapers take system. I always see Karbo pop up in these threads and he has found a way to make it work. I've tried soooo many times, watched videos, read the manual, sat and practiced, and actually tried. The criticism aimed at people who want a PT workflow is that we just aren't open to new ideas. I am open to new ideas and I love Reaper, I've tried to use the take system and at the end of the day I still feel like PTs is hugely superior. Edit groups and playlists, I really can't understand why it isn't implemented.

Obviously Reaper is successful, but I feel like it would make its way into so many more studio, like actual studios that have sessions with multiple people, if playlists and edit groups were implemented. I have many friends who use PT and won't even think about Reaper because of this. For them it's a deal breaker. And every time I run a session on PT I get so excited that I get to work in such a way that feels so simple and right.

This will sound so stupid, but once my dad ended up sitting next to jimmy johnson, former coach of the dallas cowboys, on an airplane. He was a huge cowboys fan and it was like a dream for him. I have imagined situations where I'm on a plane, or maybe in an airport waiting for a flight, or anywhere you pretty much just have to wait, and magically I cross paths with a Reaper Dev, and we get to talking. This one issue, playlists and edit groups, I don't even care if you implement it or not. I just want to know why. Why can't we have playlists? Why can't we have edit groups? And then I want the ghost of christmas future to show all the happy Reaper users using playlists and a hallmark card of some engineer saying no... I don't need to renew my protools license, reaper now has playlists and edit groups. I just wish there was a reason instead of the same group asking for it, and the same loyal users saying either we don't need it, or the ones who want it are subhumans incapable of embracing change. We're in the fishbowl. I'll keep hoping for it
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:07 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang View Post
EvilDragon, I don't understand why you're so narrow-minded when it comes to new workflows. It seems like you're defending the status quo and don't want to get yourself into new things.
No offense, but there often comes across the opinion: "reaper doesn't already have it, so reaper doesn't need it".
Agreed. I had to leave a certain REAPER group that ED was in because nearly everything I asked about was met with negativity and push back from ED. Not everything in REAPER can be done with a script or compromised solution.

It's too bad because the group had some good helpful people but ED ruined it. To be fair, he did help me solve at least a few things but 97% of the interaction was negative as others have noted here.

After two solid years of using REAPER daily, I still maintain that the ONE thing Pro Tools handled better without question is playlists. I think PT handles them better than any DAW really and among the non Pro Tools DAWs, REAPER ranks pretty low in this area.

I don't do recording and mixing anymore but as much as I absolutely love REAPER for what I'm using it for now, it would be hard to justify recording and mixing a full EP or album in REAPER due to the lack of Pro Tools style playlists.

Luckily with what I'm doing now, I'm only working with single stereo tracks/items and rarely have more than 2 or 3 "takes" of a section of audio so the current take system works, but I can't imagine dealing with a half dozen or more vocal takes or worse yet, drum takes captured with multiple microphones.
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:38 AM   #60
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Accurate parlance helps, Playlists (Track versions in Cubase) are sort of a separate feature/addition to the take system. Most approach it as a broken take system and try to dismiss what's there now, which isn't broken at all, which will receive the appropriate pushback due to the conflation.

So, as I've mentioned in a few threads now, it would be most helpful to reduce the conflation by asking for the addition to the system instead of trying to compare playlists to takes which is incorrect - they both fall under the same system but not the same components within that system - this is true even if you use playlists for your "takes".

Btw, playlists is a terrible name IMHO, track versions as Cubase calls it is much better choice FWIW. I think they would be a very useful addition, but we need to treat it as an addition instead of trying to use it as ammo against what's there now which is never going to get much traction.
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Old 08-02-2018, 06:43 AM   #61
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Ya know...
I think that a Playlist feature can actually be integrated with a kind of pattern, blocks, scratch-based, optional workflow to arrangement.
And honestly, I was just about to add to my thread (https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=209336)
that a possible approach to such could be through more in-depth Take management,
stored at a track level (maybe through manual selection and saving)
and can be recalled at anytime (drag and drop/dblclick).
They can even be joined with takes of other tracks into "patterns" that can be recalled on multiple tracks at one time.

This would require a separate pane to view the takes (and preferably a preview of waveforms and midi).
There, the takes can be named and whatever. Also, these takes/items can be removed from the arrangement
yet retained in the project (like in the Project Bay).

This can also probably be done very well with LUA.
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Old 08-06-2018, 04:08 AM   #62
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Almost ready for bug hunting:


Shows all versions at once and you can select them via script or mouse click on item. There is some API bug regarding playback of items that I hope will be resolved soon so I will upload it then

Last edited by Sexan; 08-06-2018 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 08-06-2018, 05:37 AM   #63
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Thansk for the scripting efforts. There as always arguments for both sides (script vs. native solution).

+1 for the native solution still.
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Old 08-06-2018, 02:13 PM   #64
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one more incoming feature along with show all versions:

Last edited by Sexan; 08-06-2018 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 08-06-2018, 03:08 PM   #65
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Um, is that swipe comping combined with playlists? That's effing brilliant!
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:25 AM   #66
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Major update coming soon for those who are interested:
1. Auto Save version changes
2. Show all versions in track
3. Editing while in all versions mode
4. Copy selected part or whole version to other versions
5. Swipe comping versions
6. New real empty version



P.S. There is still unknown API bug with playback when items are in FIPM mode
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Old 08-17-2018, 04:02 AM   #67
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almost forgot about 7.

7. copy part in time selection to other version (like ProTools playlist does it)


works in both single and multi view mode

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Old 08-17-2018, 05:37 AM   #68
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Looks nice, I'll check that. Is there a way to copy directly to the first version with a single click (or better single shortcut)? That would be nice to be fast when editing. Or is the comp version made for this purpose?
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Old 08-17-2018, 06:04 AM   #69
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I can make it single click or shortcut. But to avoid limitation to only one version (in this case first one) I can make general option to copy only to "Main" version so then it will be single click, or I can make destination user selectable so it will always copy to selected destination and still be single click?

Lets say I make "COPY TO" a menu which will set destination (you select to which version you want to copy) and after you activate it will send data to selected version

What do you prefer?

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Old 08-17-2018, 06:39 AM   #70
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Set copy destination:


Is this ok? By default with this implementation if you do not select destination it will be Main/Original version, but you can still choose other if you want

BTW this version is not yet uploaded, need to polish few things and add few more things

If there is some feature you would like please inform me. I'm adding autoloop record (auto create versions from loop recording)

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Old 08-17-2018, 07:23 AM   #71
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I dont know yet. I think the normal workflow would be to record to different takes and copy just to one final version. So this behaviour should be fine.

Is there a way to get this work for multiple tracks at the same time? PT shines when it comes to drum editing and you edit just one track while all the other group members follow.
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:32 AM   #72
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send copies of multiple versions to multiple tracks?

track 1 v1
track 2 v1
track 3 v1

to

track 1 main
track 2 main
track 3 main

?
yes its possible
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:37 AM   #73
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Nice. I'll check that as soon as possible.
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:39 AM   #74
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I will need to implement that first,will asap. The easiest way to do it will be to "ARM" the folder (add one more button) where all items are, then when editing one version , all other version in the folder follow
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:44 AM   #75
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Dear Sexan, this is truly amazing work, thank you so much !
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Old 08-17-2018, 08:40 AM   #76
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Works in both multi view and single view
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:54 AM   #77
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Nice. How to choose which tracks are affected? E.g you got drums you wanna edit and a guitars which are already edited. Does it wotk using parent/child tracks?
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Old 08-17-2018, 10:06 AM   #78
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When creating versions with folder,all childs inside get same versionID as folder. When doing editing/switching etc with folder it looks for childs that have the same versionID as parent (so they wont interfere with versions that are not created by folder (different versionID).
In this case it will affect all tracks/childs that are created by folder.

TL : DR
Yeah parent/child scenario (also works with nested folders)

For this to work folder version must be created ATM (if track is not in folder and already has versions, make folder and make version (it will create duplicate version) and then you can edit them as one

For multiediting button will appear only on folder track,when armed you can do what you want

I can also make it that you can choose versions which will be added to main

Track 1 v1
track 2 v2
track 3 v3

to

track 1 main
track 2 main
track 3 main

or if you have some video which explains what behavior you want that would be even better

Last edited by Sexan; 08-18-2018 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 08-18-2018, 09:21 AM   #79
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I hope this will bring someone joy, as it brought me tears while coding (been looking at lots of YT playlist videos)



(yes it will be make comp or copy or whatever)
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Old 08-25-2018, 07:34 AM   #80
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you know, it was just too funny watch this from a total laziness rant and when someone actually learned to ignore all of that, not complain and do just an amazing work with all of this new extra, add in, OPTIONAL functionality incorporated into reaper then now its been just too quiet, no action, no more childish complaining and now everyone dies over and loves reaper. So props and definitely a big high five to you, sexan. You actually did something about this, and did it really well, probably silencing more than one in the process.
And as he said,
lets work together first, have something decent to show, have a REAL proposal for functionality and then, negotiate to get this implemented natively, if possible.
no other "big, serious" DAW company that I know of, like ahem, your so beloved Avid one takes customer feedback so seriously.
Go write to them asking for a reaper functionality and lets see what they, including their own users say about getting it even remotely envisioned and lets come back here an talk about that experience. I'll sit here very patiently ALL DAY and wait for a response.
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