Old 03-03-2014, 01:40 PM   #41
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Excuse me if I don't get it 100% yet... but are you saying if I have a SSD drive for my OS and my VST programs and THEN run my Reaper projects on another drive separate from my SSD drive (cutting audio, running my VSTs), that my system will be SLOWER vs. having EVERYTHING (my OS, programs, audio and VSTs) all running AND recording on 1 SSD drive?
Exactly. OS/apps/audio all on the SSD is the highest performance.

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IF so, what about ASIO Buffer Size? I'm currently running at 512 latency but would like to use 256 or less. Can all this be done on 1 SSD drive?

Currently I'm using 3 drives. 1 for my OS and programs, 1 for my projects cutting audio and running VSTs, and 1 drive for streaming samples.

Thanks!
If you aim to run live sound, then you need "real-time" low latency performance (ie. 11ms or less total system latency). Recording audio to a SSD will let you get that performance.

For studio post work, latency is a moot point since you are not monitoring anything live through Reaper. In this case, simply set your disc buffer to a healthy value that works error free for any size session you are working with.

I set my disc buffer to 128 samples for live sound. This puts me right at 11ms total system latency. This "high-ish" value is a concession for all the Waves plugins I like to run live.

For studio post work I set the disc buffer to 2048 samples and just forget about it.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:47 PM   #42
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For studio post work I set the disc buffer to 2048 samples and just forget about it.
When I'm cutting tracks on a keyboard or midi drums I monitor what I'm playing through my speakers. At 2048 there's like a 1/4 of a second delay. For edting on the play back 2048 would be fine.
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Old 03-03-2014, 01:58 PM   #43
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When I'm cutting tracks on a keyboard or midi drums I monitor what I'm playing through my speakers. At 2048 there's like a 1/4 of a second delay. For edting on the play back 2048 would be fine.
Live performance would be just like running live sound then. I do that too actually. Reaper is my guitar rig now with amp sims, loopers, and so forth. Same 128 sample disc buffer for the performance rig.

Test your system and see where the breaking point is with the plugins you want to use. 11ms is the threshold of human perception for latency. This means for a straight delay. This does NOT address situations where the "original" and then the delayed sounds of something are combined and create phasing! (Obviously you would not hear any "original" in a latency situation.)

Also note that the latency value Reaper displays at the top of the screen is ONLY the latency added by Reaper itself. Total system latency also includes any delay caused by your analog to digital converters and your audio interface. (When you hear people claiming they can hear 11ms latency and it's too high, it's because they assumed the value reported by Reaper was the system total. That number is actually about 1/3 to 1/2 total system latency.)


Oh... The other concession for live sound performance is lowering my sample rate to 48k (instead of 96k). This all revolves around the plugins you want to use. If I were to open a blank session with no plugins, I can pass live audio and record all 36 channels to disc at 96k with a 32 sample disc buffer. With the plugins I like to run, I had to go with 48k and a 128 sample disc buffer.

The audio is still 24 bit and the latency is still "real-time", so the word "concession" is just semantics.

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Old 03-03-2014, 02:14 PM   #44
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So serr... if I'm cutting my audio and running my VSTi and Reaper on my SSD OS drive, I would still need a drive for streaming samples correct? I mean... I have like 1TB of samples or more so I can't fit everything on a 480 SSD drive.

And then any other HDD drive would be used just for archiving I take it.

With that being said.

1. One 480 SSD for OS, VSTis, recording audio and midi in Reaper.

2. One 4 TB HDD for streaming samples

3. One 4 TB HDD for archiving projects.

Does this make sense?

Thanks again!
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:23 PM   #45
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So serr... if I'm cutting my audio and running my VSTi and Reaper on my SSD OS drive, I would still need a drive for streaming samples correct? I mean... I have like 1TB of samples or more so I can't fit everything on a 480 SSD drive.

And then any other HDD drive would be used just for archiving I take it.

With that being said.

1. One 480 SSD for OS, VSTis, recording audio and midi in Reaper.

2. One 4 TB HDD for streaming samples

3. One 4 TB HDD for archiving projects.

Does this make sense?

Thanks again!
Put a subset of the samples you use on your SSD.

Not sure if your sampler plays from the hard drive or loads the samples to ram to play. Even if the latter, putting the ones you use on the SSD would speed up loading.
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:26 PM   #46
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Put a subset of the samples you use on your SSD.
Cool! Plus a lot of samples load into ram.

I was wondering.... if they come out with a larger SSD drive like 1TB, could you make a mirror drive of the 480 SSD to the 1TB SSD and then swop out drives have more room for samples?
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Old 03-03-2014, 02:33 PM   #47
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Cool! Plus a lot of samples load into ram.

I was wondering.... if they come out with a larger SSD drive like 1TB, could you make a mirror drive of the 480 SSD to the 1TB SSD and then swop out drives have more room for samples?
Sure. I use Carbon Copy Cloner for backups. This lets you clone entire volumes. A clone of your system drive(s) will be bootable and identical to the original in every way. There are a number of choices for backup clone software too - this is just the one I know and have used for a long time.

SSD's are high performance drives with high performance cost. So it makes sense to still use HDD's for large storage space and manage the system. I believe I just saw a 750GB SSD from someone. Too high of a luxury cost for me though.
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Old 03-03-2014, 05:46 PM   #48
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I believe I just saw a 750GB SSD from someone. Too high of a luxury cost for me though.
I found a NEW SEALED Samsung MZ-7TE750BW 840 EVO Series 750 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive SATA on Ebay.

Buy It Now for $405 it says!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SEALED-S...-/400662738897
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Old 03-03-2014, 07:22 PM   #49
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Cool price. But you could get a 250GB SSD + a 120GB SSD + a 2TB HDD for about $300. This gets you a backup system ready to go at a moments notice. You can even run audio to the 2nd SSD just because it's there. And then a lot of storage space on the HDD and even that has a lot of performance ability.

The bottom line would be if you needed more than 200GB of highest performance audio workspace. But that is a really cool price for a 750GB SSD!
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Old 03-04-2014, 07:50 AM   #50
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Default Add a RAM Disk to Your Computer for Faster-than-SSD Performance

Is anyone doing this?

http://lifehacker.com/5969767/add-a-...sd-performance

Here's an article that says why you shouldn't use them!

http://www.howtogeek.com/171432/ram-...uldnt-use-one/

Thoughts?
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Old 03-04-2014, 08:00 AM   #51
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Here's a T TB SSD for $495

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Electr...=1tb+ssd+drive

Crucial makes a 960 gig $449 as well!

http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-2-5-In...=1tb+ssd+drive
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:08 AM   #52
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Cool price. But you could get a 250GB SSD + a 120GB SSD + a 2TB HDD for about $300. This gets you a backup system ready to go at a moments notice. You can even run audio to the 2nd SSD just because it's there. And then a lot of storage space on the HDD and even that has a lot of performance ability.

The bottom line would be if you needed more than 200GB of highest performance audio workspace. But that is a really cool price for a 750GB SSD!
Thanks serr! Something to think about for sure!

Say... would my system be FASTER if I have 2 SSD drives like... 1 for the OS and 1 for recording OR... would I have the same performance in my recording running everything on 1 drive (OS, VSTs, Reaper etc.)?

Currently I have 253 gigs used on my recording drive. I would assume I would move that data to the SSD drive when my new DAW is built.

As for my OS drive, I'm currently using about 220 gigs on that. So... if you put the 2 together that's 473 gigs right of the bat.

Now I'm sure there's stuff that can be cleaned up or moved and archived. For example. I have written like 100 songs on my recording drive PLUS I have some stuff archived on it that I might be able to move and free up a few gigs or so
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Old 03-06-2014, 02:06 PM   #53
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Because of the speed audio gets written, you will not notice one ounce of a difference whether you record to an SSD or to a regular HDD. Plenty of field recorders use SD cards, which have a much lower read/write speed compared to a computer hard drive, and because of that, no SSD will improve performance. It will only improve access times when you load a session. Once the session is loaded, there will be zero benefit to an SSD.

I have an SSD for my OS drive, and then I have 3 HDDs for projects, samples and my personal files. Once a session is loaded, I assure you, there's no wait. Even at that, the new drives are very reliable, fast and load sessions quickly enough for everyone I know. Everyone I know who works professionally is perfectly happy running off regular drives. One of my friends is still basking in the glory of having worked on audio for Gravity, and he's using a somewhat older machine with no SSD.

Archiving older projects to an external and getting them off your machine when you don't need them readily anymore is the best improvement you can do to get the best performance.
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Old 03-06-2014, 02:43 PM   #54
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Because of the speed audio gets written, you will not notice one ounce of a difference whether you record to an SSD or to a regular HDD. Plenty of field recorders use SD cards, which have a much lower read/write speed compared to a computer hard drive, and because of that, no SSD will improve performance. It will only improve access times when you load a session. Once the session is loaded, there will be zero benefit to an SSD.

I have an SSD for my OS drive, and then I have 3 HDDs for projects, samples and my personal files. Once a session is loaded, I assure you, there's no wait. Even at that, the new drives are very reliable, fast and load sessions quickly enough for everyone I know. Everyone I know who works professionally is perfectly happy running off regular drives. One of my friends is still basking in the glory of having worked on audio for Gravity, and he's using a somewhat older machine with no SSD.

Archiving older projects to an external and getting them off your machine when you don't need them readily anymore is the best improvement you can do to get the best performance.
Thanks JGrabowMST for your reply!

Would you still recommend an SSD for the C drive (for your OS and programs) vs a HDD C drive and then cut your projects on a separate HDD drive and stream samples from a 3rd HDD drive?

Currently I have 4 internal drives. 1 for the OS and programs, 1 for recording on, and 2 for streaming samples.

Thanks!
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:28 PM   #55
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SSDs for streaming sample apps is a must.
Notice my signature below.

This DAW was built as a part of the manifest as I couldn't afford it, but the most read and random read instensive sample app out there is no longer bottlenecked by ASMedia or Marvel SATA III 6GBps controllers.

Using the PCIe bus and the LSI 3008 controller w/the 3x24 Extender is insane.

Here's some benchmarks that were pretty useless as these drives broke all synthetic testing.

http://www.thessdreview.com/our-revi...gbs-850k-iops/

I can vouge that the 8 drive RAID 0 is so insanely fast I can use an 8 drive RAID 10+ where a realtime rebuild if a failure occurs, will not affect streaming. As 3 of the drives will kick right in during a rebuild.

This isn't necessary for anything other than live performance. But in 2 years these enterprise drives and the motherboard will be affordable to all.
I plan on using this for at least 5 years, as everything has a 5 year warranty.
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:14 PM   #56
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SSDs for streaming sample apps is a must.
Notice my signature below.

This DAW was built as a part of the manifest as I couldn't afford it, but the most read and random read instensive sample app out there is no longer bottlenecked by ASMedia or Marvel SATA III 6GBps controllers.

Using the PCIe bus and the LSI 3008 controller w/the 3x24 Extender is insane.

Here's some benchmarks that were pretty useless as these drives broke all synthetic testing.

http://www.thessdreview.com/our-revi...gbs-850k-iops/

I can vouge that the 8 drive RAID 0 is so insanely fast I can use an 8 drive RAID 10+ where a realtime rebuild if a failure occurs, will not affect streaming. As 3 of the drives will kick right in during a rebuild.

This isn't necessary for anything other than live performance. But in 2 years these enterprise drives and the motherboard will be affordable to all.
I plan on using this for at least 5 years, as everything has a 5 year warranty.
My daw will be in my studio (not for live). For live I'll either be performing to a track as a solo artist (all originals) or have a live band one day.

So for that being said... would an SSD for my OS and programs be the way to go and then just cut and stream on 2 HDDs or still get an SSD for streaming (or just cut it all on the OS/program SSD as mentioned in this thread?)

I'm also planing on these components (unless there's something better to go with)

CPU = Intel Core i7-4930K Ivy Bridge-E 3.4GHz LGA 2011 130W 6-Core

Mobo = Asus Sabertooth X79

Cooler = Corsair H100i

PSU = Either the Corsair RM Series 850 Watt ATX/EPS 80PLUS Gold-Certified Power Supply or the Corsair 1200 ax modular.

Memory = 32 or 64 gb Corsair Vengance

Video = NVIDIA - GeForce GTX 660 Ti 2GB GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 Graphics Card or perhaps the new EVGA GTX 750 Ti.

OS = Win 7 64

Thanks!
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:19 PM   #57
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Here's some benchmarks that were pretty useless as these drives broke all synthetic testing.

http://www.thessdreview.com/our-revi...gbs-850k-iops/

So is this basically your setup?

Also are you using your DAW for recording live or performing live? If performing are you using Reaper and performing to tracks playing live in Reaper while you are playing VSTis synths at the same time or what?
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Old 03-06-2014, 05:10 PM   #58
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Thanks JGrabowMST for your reply!

Would you still recommend an SSD for the C drive (for your OS and programs) vs a HDD C drive and then cut your projects on a separate HDD drive and stream samples from a 3rd HDD drive?

Currently I have 4 internal drives. 1 for the OS and programs, 1 for recording on, and 2 for streaming samples.

Thanks!
Yes. I recently decided to upgrade to an SSD for my C drive. Only OS and Programs are on it, all other data gets saved on various other internal HDDs I have. I have a dedicated 1TB drive for samples only, a 2TB for only active projects. This setup was also fairly cost effective, and was easily done.

As far as your parts go, I'll try and steer you in a better direction.

Quote:
CPU = Intel Core i7-4930K Ivy Bridge-E 3.4GHz LGA 2011 130W 6-Core

Mobo = Asus Sabertooth X79

Cooler = Corsair H100i

PSU = Either the Corsair RM Series 850 Watt ATX/EPS 80PLUS Gold-Certified Power Supply or the Corsair 1200 ax modular.

Memory = 32 or 64 gb Corsair Vengance

Video = NVIDIA - GeForce GTX 660 Ti 2GB GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 Graphics Card or perhaps the new EVGA GTX 750 Ti.

OS = Win 7 64
Get a good tower air cooler. There are many many of them. I do not trust liquid coolers, and have seen expensive problems caused by them. There are lots of very good air coolers on the market that will be fine for you. Noctua, Prolimatech, Xigmatek and Thermalright all make very good CPU coolers. I would strongly recommend going that route over water cooling. I'll make sure you're the first to know when I see a tower cooler go bad or have any problems over time.

I personally have a Gigabyte Windforce OC GTX660Ti 2gb. Great card, lots of outputs, and it works.

I personally have 32gb of RAM, more than I need, especially regarding Reaper. My most intense audio apps barely use any of it. Having 64 would merely be a convenience, but likely unnecessary, even in the long term.

You do not need any 850W power supply. I have a Dual Xeon workstation, and I have a 750W unit myself. Your single CPU will not use as much power as my two CPUs. I guarantee that. Get a very good 550-600W from Seasonic, BeQuiet, Enermax, Corsair or Antec. It'll be more than you need, and will be more than enough for your use. I promise.

The CPU is fine, I'm not a fan of the i7's anymore, but it'll be plenty fast for you, and should last several years with no hiccups. The same goes for the Asus motherboard.

For hard drives, I'm very biased to Intel SSDs and Western Digital HDDs. Specifically Western Digital Velociraptor and Black series drives. For projects and samples, the Black series drives are very fast, and more than you'll need. I have a 1TB and 2TB Black. I also have a regular 640gb (before there was Blue/Black/Green/Red) and it works fine for just my own personal data (music, photos, etc).

Operating System is all preference, so whatever you want. Just know that you have to get Professional. I don't see any reason to get Ultimate (all it gives you is more updates to cause trouble compared to Professional). Beyond that, whatever you want. Home Premium will max with 16gb of RAM, so that option is out the door.

As long as you take care of the machine, it will take care of you.
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Old 03-06-2014, 05:35 PM   #59
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Because of the speed audio gets written, you will not notice one ounce of a difference whether you record to an SSD or to a regular HDD. Plenty of field recorders use SD cards, which have a much lower read/write speed compared to a computer hard drive, and because of that, no SSD will improve performance. It will only improve access times when you load a session. Once the session is loaded, there will be zero benefit to an SSD.
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SSDs for streaming sample apps is a must.
Humm, heh heh, definitely two different takes on this.

I've always admired your setup XITE-1, but you're coming from a live approach, could it be your needs and demands are a little different than some of us who are simply doing this in our studios? When your running samplers like Kontakt with your SSDs, are you running them in Sampler mode or DFD mode, or does it matter?

I know for myself, I've never had a problem playing back or recording using HHDs as long as my computer could handle what I gave it. By that I mean, when I hit play, my DAW started playing immediately and continued to play until I hit stop. If there was any lag time between from when I hit play and when it all played, it wasn't noticable or at the very least bothersome. I should mention a huge part of what I do is with samplers, primarily Kontakt. But it also includes recording & playing back vocals, guitars, cellos, fiddles, bass, etc., basically lots of acoustic instruments.

I should mention I put HHD recording in my studio back in the early 90s.

So how important are SSDs in the overall picture when it comes to performance in our non live studios?

Now I'm not against SSDs, I'm going to be getting them myself, but I would like to make some knowledgeable choices because money don't grow on trees. However, if it turns out that SSDs make a huge difference in recording and playback performance, I sure wouldn't be afraid to put money in that direction.
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Old 03-07-2014, 10:14 AM   #60
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Default CPU Mark Relative to Top 10 Common CPUs

Check this chart out!

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?...2620+@+2.00GHz

I then checked the price of the AMD FX-8350 Black Edition (which seems to blow away everything) and its like $199?

Here's the link at Newegg http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113284

Can this be right? If so, wouldn't this be the one to get?

I also did a search (AMD FX-8350 black edition vs Intel Core i7-4930K )and found this review.

http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/449..._i7-4930K.html

Thoughts?
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:08 AM   #61
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So how important are SSDs in the overall picture when it comes to performance in our non live studios?

Now I'm not against SSDs, I'm going to be getting them myself, but I would like to make some knowledgeable choices because money don't grow on trees. However, if it turns out that SSDs make a huge difference in recording and playback performance, I sure wouldn't be afraid to put money in that direction.
Not as much.
I run live sound + make the computer record all the inputs to disc simultaneously. That certainly demands I/O performance! Requires a SSD in fact.

So, that's kind of my benchmark for an example of high performance use (ie. Set yourself up to do this and your system will be able to do anything).


If someone comes along asking how to build a system and get the biggest bang for the buck, I'll point to this. Especially if someone is already talking about wanting to buy server class 8-core i7 machines loaded with ram... All that would sit there idling and absolutely never be utilized unless you built an I/O system to match (ie. use an SSD).


I was just working on a session last night running off one of my archive drives. I had already FLAC'd the wav files. It was only just under 30 tracks and only 48k sample rate but Reaper had to decode and play the FLAC files on the fly and I also had some time compression going on on the fly with a few edits. The archive drive is an older external firewire drive. Reaper had no issues.


Back to the live sound thing. My late 2008 C2D Macbook Pro is my backup machine for live sound. It does the live sound + recording gig with the SSD I installed in it. It's punishing for it with CPU use in the 90% range but it does it.

My conclusion is that if you're on a budget, an older machine upgraded with a SSD will do a lot more for you than an i7 with tons of RAM but only a standard HDD. And if you're only mixing a couple dozen tracks, not doing live sound or performance, and not using one of the newest most CPU hungry VSTi orchestral synth something something maxes anything out something, you can do a lot with a modest budget.

Last edited by serr; 03-07-2014 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:37 AM   #62
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Thanks serr for your input!

I have a question. How do you use you DAW for live? Do you play back the tracks in Reaper then play along to those tracks using VSTis or are you using it for recording?

Thanks!
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:42 AM   #63
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So is this basically your setup?

Also are you using your DAW for recording live or performing live? If performing are you using Reaper and performing to tracks playing live in Reaper while you are playing VSTis synths at the same time or what?
Right now I use a 1U Supermicro server w/ Reaper as a host for live work.
MIDI tracks are preferred to cover parts I can't play using hardware and Sample streaming in realtime. OS+Apps is a Seagate Momentus XL Hybrid and samples stream from 3 x OCZ Vertex 4s. It was a reasonably priced live rig, and since I use an XITE-1 DSP rack the CPU isn't where the calculations are done. I prefer dedicated audio chips as they only need a few lines of code from the OS and have audiorate modulations on all FX, Mixers and synths.

The rig being tested now in my signature below will be able to use those massive Orchestral instruments in realtime, all patches loaded and ready for recall, and also finally found a soft synth that adds to my DSP hardware and analog hardware, so the CPU will finally get a workout too.

But the best thing about SSDs is access time. Right now if I were to upgrade and was a project studio guy who only needs more speed for workflow, SSDs are perfect and cheap now.

This sight is run by a guy who knows his stuff and is at every trade show, so when buying anything, his reviews are always a good place for details other reviewers don't look for.

http://www.thessdreview.com/
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:49 AM   #64
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Thanks serr for your input!

I have a question. How do you use you DAW for live? Do you play back the tracks in Reaper then play along to those tracks using VSTis or are you using it for recording?

Thanks!
No, I run live sound with it. Reaper is the mixing board.
I set up a band on a stage, put mics in front of the drums, instruments, and vocals (up to 36 channels at present). Then the band plays and I mix the sound through PA amps and speakers. And while the computer is doing that I also make it record all the inputs (and any fx outputs I create ITB) to multitrack so I can take the tracks back to the studio and remix it from the ground up. I use the devices mentioned in my signature to wirelessly remote control the computer from anywhere in the venue.

And I've got to admit that even after using this rig for almost 5 years now it still feels like being in a scene in Star Trek. (Actually Revenge of the Nerds would be more visually accurate )

And there are only 2 mixing boards I've ever heard that sound as good as Reaper's mix engine (even debatable better): SSL and Neve. Nothing else is remotely close! Even the larger Midas and Soundcraft boards are truly put to shame. Reaper blows away that newer X32 digital mixer for sound quality too if anyone was wondering.

I need to qualify of course that the fidelity of your inputs is a factor of the mic preamps and digital converters you're using. Reaper simply preserves this (and up to the highest levels you throw at it).

That's also the beauty of the system. Everything is modular. You can put together different interfaces with different inputs and add to it at any time.

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Old 03-07-2014, 11:51 AM   #65
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And yes Brotha' Man Tod. I still have a pair of Scope/Giga/Cubase DAWs using 3 x DSP cards, and 360,740, 1500 and 2500 Raptor HDDs.
Used those rigs live too w/o a problem.
My upgrades were simply for downsizing the rigs, and I was adding PLAY/VSL instruments which are not going to work unless you break the SATA III bottleneck.
You can record a track at a time and edit, but yes, my needs for realtime are quite demanding.
In all honesty a cat with a good ear and mock up chops can do wonders with a laptop.
Just listen to what Big Red did when working with GaGa.
Logic and a MacBook.
But still, I would get SSDs using the SATA III ASMedia/Marvel stuff simply for the access times compared to HDDs.
This means you can keep your older HDDs for retrieval and storage, even playback.
Someday I can bypass the realtime DSP stuff, but audio is a niche area, and if you only need 32 tracks or less Native is fine, but I really wish they would just get rid of the slavery to Windows and Macs. The CPUs are powerful enough for realtime work if they had their own reduced instruction set/OS.
The idea of asking the CPU for permission on every move is so 1900s.
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Old 03-07-2014, 12:32 PM   #66
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And there are only 2 mixing boards I've ever heard that sound as good as Reaper's mix engine (even debatable better): SSL and Neve. Nothing else is remotely close! Even the larger Midas and Soundcraft boards are truly put to shame. Reaper blows away that newer X32 digital mixer for sound quality too if anyone was wondering.
I'll have to do this one day for my live show!
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Old 03-07-2014, 03:27 PM   #67
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Check this chart out!

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?...2620+@+2.00GHz

I then checked the price of the AMD FX-8350 Black Edition (which seems to blow away everything) and its like $199?

Here's the link at Newegg http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113284

Can this be right? If so, wouldn't this be the one to get?

I also did a search (AMD FX-8350 black edition vs Intel Core i7-4930K )and found this review.

http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/449..._i7-4930K.html

Thoughts?
Thanks SEA, my thoughts have been on an i7 for the last 6 months and I probably won't change that but it sure makes a person stop and think about the AMD.

And thanks to serr and XITE-1, you guys certainly have some great gear. Heh heh, in all honesty I do't know what half of it is but I do get the picture.

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And there are only 2 mixing boards I've ever heard that sound as good as Reaper's mix engine (even debatable better): SSL and Neve. Nothing else is remotely close! Even the larger Midas and Soundcraft boards are truly put to shame. Reaper blows away that newer X32 digital mixer for sound quality too if anyone was wondering.
Wow, you must have some really good interfaces with top notch AtoDs and DtoAs, I would think that would be the main factor for this wouldn't it? I see you have a couple of True Precision 8, I googled them and they are pretty impressive as well as expensive. That would account for 16 inputs so you must have another 20 some where.

I've got to admit serr, what you're doing is pretty mind boggling for me. So are you controlling/supplying all the sound equipment too like, Amps, Spearkers, stage monitors, Crossover, Mics, etc.?

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And yes Brotha' Man Tod. I still have a pair of Scope/Giga/Cubase DAWs using 3 x DSP cards, and 360,740, 1500 and 2500 Raptor HDDs.
Used those rigs live too w/o a problem.
I'd love to see you play live some time XITE, I'll bet you're pretty good.
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Old 03-07-2014, 04:30 PM   #68
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Tod,

I think SSDs make a difference for me.
Hey my friend, thankyou, you kind of popped in while I was typing.

Yes, you certainly have an impressive system and now that you've reminded me I will be discussing this with you before I make the plunge.

I think one of my biggest concerns is noise. The computer I have in my studio right now is a pretty good computer, it's an i5 quad with 8 gig. My biggest problem with it isn't working with Reaper but working with video software, it gets the job done very well without crashing but can be pretty slow.

However, putting video aside, this computer is the quietest computer I've ever seen/heard. I can record with condenser mics 2.5 feet from it without a problem, almost zilch noise. The computer is small, it's called a cube which is very light and maybe 2/3rds the size of a regular desk top computer.

Now it's doubtful I can get the desktop computer that I want, that is this quiet. There have been some say that they have very quiet systems, but exactly how quiet is that, they don't go on to explain what they mean by quiet? To me quiet is being able to record with 1, 2, 3, 4 microphones in your control room without any problems of undesirable noise.

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Old 03-07-2014, 05:00 PM   #69
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As you know, the noise floor comes from the preamps and
microphone when using the Zoom R-16 (not from fans running
in the background which would be way louder than the noise
generated by the preamp or microphone).
What it ultimately comes down to is a confusion between the physical noise floor of the room, and the noise floor of the equipment.

Regardless however, in this case, considering the comment was made specifically about what quiet really means, noise floor, physical or otherwise, are being lumped into a single category. Yes, the equipment will have a threshold where it will not pick up sounds below a certain frequency and amplitude, but having many devices together increases the amplitude of any given frequency. In that regard, this is correct.
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Old 03-07-2014, 06:05 PM   #70
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Yes.
For example, if my interface on the computer has a noise floor of -90dB
with a decent microphone being used, then, add in the noise of
the fans in the background, that changes the noise floor to around -50dB.

The noise floor of the room is always louder than the noise floor
of the equipment because of my fans running in the background.

That is a great reason for me to use a ZOOM R-16 for certain
material where I do not want to hear the room noise (fans) in
the background.
Aah okay, so you basically turn off your computer and record with your ZOOM.

The only problem with that is I've got umpteen recorded tracks going to the head phones, all of which need to be heard by the artists while recording.

Or are you sending the ZOOM a sub-mix of some kind? Still if I understand correctly, that would be rather inconvenient.

Really and truly I don't care about equipment noise at this point, it's the acoustical noise from the computer that is objectionable.

Not that it matters but my control room is specially built and is a very quiet room.

Thanks SMM.
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Old 03-07-2014, 06:30 PM   #71
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Considering that quite a few of us have spent time, money and considerable effort to treat our mix rooms - try this:

Get a fan. Turn it on. Talk into it.

Above and beyond the noise of a fan is the fact that it creates turbulent airflow, and if you think the hard corners of a room reek havoc on how things sound consider a force that can alter pitch.

It's a very small force when talking about your computer fans, and more than likely negligible but eliminating fans and their noise is a no brainer in my books.
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Old 03-07-2014, 07:21 PM   #72
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It's a very small force when talking about your computer fans, and more than likely negligible but eliminating fans and their noise is a no brainer in my books.
This is something I would argue. Not in that I disagree that the source should be eliminated, because it absolutely should. The problem is that not all fans are created equally. Thousands of hours of development go into the creation and design of fans that are very quiet. Those fans are a really good tool to be utilized when building a machine that is going to see professional studio life. This is primarily because of the fact that many places that build "professional" systems, throw lots of fans into the machines.

If I have 1 fan that produces 20dB of noise, and I add a second identical fan, now the two produce 23dB. Add a third identical fan, and now the three produce 26dB. This is under the assumption that the fans are very low noise (and 20dB to begin with). I will put a significant amount of money into purchasing higher quality fans in order to reduce the overall noise they produce, as well as only purchasing fans when necessary. More fans does not equal better cooling, nor does faster fans.

The whole idea behind airflow is to move the most, produce the least amount of noise while doing so, and use the least amount of power. There are many good fans that have fin spacing, blade angles, and textures or extra features in order to help accomplish these goals. Compare those to your run of the mill off the shelf fans, and the price difference will seem insane. The $10 fan you can pick up at radio shack will be much louder, move less airflow, and perform generally far worse when compared to say a $35 fan from Noise Blocker or Noctua.

When getting into the physical number of fans, many people see a place for a fan on their case, and they get an extra one to go there. I see many builds like this, and it's simply wrong. Case manufacturers do this, and I honestly don't know why. There are Intel spec sheets about thermal design and airflow strategies that are less than 3 years old that still emphasize "proper" front to back airflow. Something these sheets don't explain is the importance of air pressure, the hole sizes in grills, or the positioning of fans to allow physics to do it's natural job. Heat rises. Place exhaust fans higher up, and towards the top and rear of the case. A single CPU fan is in most cases equally efficient as two, while reducing the noise by 3dB in comparison.

I build servers, and they make little to no sound whatsoever. I also maintain servers that make enough noise to make me very irritable while they're starting up. Computers do not need to be so noisy. Choosing proper components saves you money, makes the machine quieter, and allows the machine to run cooler. There are a number of aftermarket coolers that are very good at cooling, and allow for studio computers today to be quieter than ever. In some cases, even fanless.

This is a topic I could drone on about for days on end, because it's what I feel is most overlooked when it comes to building any computer. If you wanted to count every fan in my computer, the number is 7. That includes 2 on the stock graphics card cooler and 1 in the power supply. 2 CPU fans (one for each CPU), and 2 exhaust fans (one top, one rear). Intake fans are useless, they put a source of noise close to you, and not only does it create noise, but as Andy Hamm mentioned, it's turbulent. This doesn't have to exist, and that's why it's so incredibly important to really plan builds out before ordering any parts. Select the quietest parts to start with, and the system will have a great starting point. Add DynaMat or AcoustiPack. Use rubber fan grommets to reduce vibrations. Suspend hard drives, or select a case that has soft mounts for the drives. Select higher quality, quieter fans. Use coolers that are "overkill" for your needs. This will allow the system to run cooler, last longer, and just be quieter.

I'll go eat some cookies so I stop ranting, but especially in the case of people who are working in untreated rooms, this is immensely important to learn, or at least take advice from others about. I've seen a lot of "professional" systems from the likes of Puget, Boxx and other brands. Sometimes they have specific models that are for "studio use" and are supposedly quieter than others. Not all of these brands deliver this promise. Some used to, and no longer do. It's important to know what you're getting into before you drop a huge chunk of change into it.
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:42 PM   #73
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I find that computer noise in my room impacts more on my monitoring experience than on the actual recording. It's just incessant. Tiring.

I went to a fanless power supply and an sdd for my boot drive but to tell the truth, I don't notice that much difference although a difference there must be. My video card is fanless too so it's just two hard drives and the cpu fan.

If it irritates me enough I may consider putting it in a custom box.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:55 AM   #74
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I find that computer noise in my room impacts more on my monitoring experience than on the actual recording. It's just incessant. Tiring.

I went to a fanless power supply and an sdd for my boot drive but to tell the truth, I don't notice that much difference although a difference there must be. My video card is fanless too so it's just two hard drives and the cpu fan.

If it irritates me enough I may consider putting it in a custom box.
My current daw has a Big Typhoon in it and the side panel is off and is LOUD! LOL! To solve this, I put my daw in the bedroom next to my studio, through the closet. I cut a hole in the wall and ran the cables. TOTAL SILENCE!
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:08 PM   #75
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My current daw has a Big Typhoon in it and the side panel is off and is LOUD! LOL! To solve this, I put my daw in the bedroom next to my studio, through the closet. I cut a hole in the wall and ran the cables. TOTAL SILENCE!
Heh heh, that's a good way if you can do it. So did you buy extra long cables, and was there any problems getting it all hooked up to work?

Can you get cable extensions for something like this? I wasn't aware you could use extensions with a computer although that's from several years back.
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:43 PM   #76
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Heh heh, that's a good way if you can do it. So did you buy extra long cables, and was there any problems getting it all hooked up to work?

Can you get cable extensions for something like this? I wasn't aware you could use extensions with a computer although that's from several years back.
My interface is the Focusrite Liquid Saffire 56. It uses fire wire. I have an extension on it that has a repeater (or whatever they call it) It boost the signal of the fire wire.

It's about 15 or 16 ft from the computer. The cable runs from my the Focusrite that sits next to me on my desk to about 6 feet to the closet, then through the whole in the back wall of the closet then up about 3 feet to where my computer sits in the other closet in the other room. I also use a wireless mouse and keyboard with extensions on those. Works great!
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:45 PM   #77
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I have a question. When you open a Reaper project on a particular HD, is recording to THAT drive?

For instance. I have a HD I record to and another HD I stream samples from.
ALL my projects are backed up ON my sample HD. Now... If I open the project FROM my sample drive, am I now recording my project ON the sample drive or my recording drive?

Also, if I open the project from my recording drive, then back it up on my sample drive, am I NOW recording on my sample drive?

Thanks!
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:47 PM   #78
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Put a subset of the samples you use on your SSD.
If I do this serr, how do I tell Reaper to load FROM the samples that are now on my SSD (OS drive) vs. keep on streaming them from the sample drive?

Thanks!
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Old 03-09-2014, 05:23 PM   #79
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I have a question. When you open a Reaper project on a particular HD, is recording to THAT drive?

For instance. I have a HD I record to and another HD I stream samples from.
ALL my projects are backed up ON my sample HD. Now... If I open the project FROM my sample drive, am I now recording my project ON the sample drive or my recording drive?

Also, if I open the project from my recording drive, then back it up on my sample drive, am I NOW recording on my sample drive?
Hi SEA, I would think they would go where ever you setup the folder in Project Settings/Media, right.

All my projects have their own project folders and the first thing I do when I start a new project is create the folders and then direct the new project to them.

Quote:
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If I do this serr, how do I tell Reaper to load FROM the samples that are now on my SSD (OS drive) vs. keep on streaming them from the sample drive?
I think this is a problem we all face when we build a new system. The only thing I can think of is when structuring the new drives and putting the samples on them, try to create a path of least resistance.

Since Kontakt is my main sampler (probably 98% of all my samples and instruments), and I know how it seeks the samples, if I structure it so that I only have one main sample folder and then branch out from there, it's just a matter of opening that one main folder and then simply click on another.

It's still a pain, but it's a pain I'm well aware of when I make the change and at least I know exactly where to look.

---------------

I've got a question concerning the SSDs. With Kontakt you can set up your instruments so that they are DFD, Direct from Disk. Further you can choose the size of the buffers that go into ram. Currently with K5 I have the buffers set to 30kb and I'm sort of squeezing by with it but really and truly they should be 60kb.

My question is, with SSDs can I set this buffer even lower?
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Old 03-09-2014, 10:14 PM   #80
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If I do this serr, how do I tell Reaper to load FROM the samples that are now on my SSD (OS drive) vs. keep on streaming them from the sample drive?

Thanks!
Keep the same organization for your system/os/apps/library/etc on the SSD. Keep the samples in the same folder structure.

But only keep the samples you want to use here!

Now keep a folder on your data drive for the EXTRA samples.
Make sidebar shortcuts to both in the Finder (Explorer and whatever sidebar shortcuts are called in Windows) and you can quickly drag and drop back and forth if you want to add or remove from your "working" sample folder.

Reaper will of course be directed to your "working" sample folder on the SSD by default and will know nothing of the extra sample folder on your data drive.

Further though, you can also change default paths in Reaper or redirect the sampler plugin (likely with some setup script) when it works that way.
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