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Old 08-08-2019, 06:28 AM   #1
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Default Win7 user thinking about moving to Linux...

What happens if I just keep using Windows 7? Will I be risking losing data or viruses etc.? I'd prefer not to have to learn a new OS if I can avoid it. If it's unavoidable though, what is the best linux distro for running Reaper and do they come with WINE and JACK etc. pre installed? I really hate Windows 10 and can't face the idea of caving into it, but linux seems complicated and I'm having trouble deciding what to do. I'm wondering if I should just disconnect my computers from the internet to reduce risk and just keep running Windows 7 indefinitely.
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Old 08-08-2019, 06:38 AM   #2
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I just upgraded my windows 7 to windows 10 for free. It ran the upgrade for an hour and was done. It works great.

I forget which link I used but here is one.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-...ws-10-upgrade/
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:00 AM   #3
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Thanks but as I said, I really don't like windows 10. Win 10 is not really an upgrade when your PC is not brand new, it just slows everything down, too much bloatware, privacy issues, Cortana spies on you and I just hate the aesthetic look of it. That's why I'm looking to Linux, or even better, seeing if I can keep Windows 7.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:04 AM   #4
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I understand. I ran linux for many years and find it a major pita. I also ran
"shut up windows 10" to turn off a lot of things.

I'm really happy in windows 10 and have "start menu 10" replacing their menu system.
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:26 AM   #5
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I have heard shutup10 recommended before but it still doesnt solve the main issue i have with windows 10 which is the constant need for updates (Shutup10 recommends that you don't disable the win 10 updates). Using an older PC, i think windows 7 is my only option unless I'm willing to learn Linux or buy a Mac. I am ethically against windows 10 and everything it stands for, so I feel quite strongly about not migrating towards it.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:29 AM   #6
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Thanks but as I said, I really don't like windows 10. Win 10 is not really an upgrade when your PC is not brand new, it just slows everything down, too much bloatware, privacy issues, Cortana spies on you and I just hate the aesthetic look of it. That's why I'm looking to Linux, or even better, seeing if I can keep Windows 7.
You aren't alone in not liking Windows 10. Microsoft is all about data harvesting now and their OS is the the best tool ever devised for it.

That said, I setup a dual boot Window 7 and Xubuntu Linux DAW last year with the thinking that I would boot Win7 to do music and disconnect it from the internet. Once I setup REAPER in Linux it started becoming obvious that I didn't need Windows at all.

I have all my Windows plugins functioning in Linux, including Kontakt, Superior Drummer, Etc., but since I record mostly real guitar, bass, drums, and other real instruments, I'm not extremely dependent on virtual instruments. Almost all the music on my music page was done 100% in Linux and I don't miss Windows at all.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:35 AM   #7
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I have heard shutup10 recommended before but it still doesnt solve the main issue i have with windows 10 which is the constant need for updates (Shutup10 recommends that you don't disable the win 10 updates). Using an older PC, i think windows 7 is my only option unless I'm willing to learn Linux or buy a Mac. I am ethically against windows 10 and everything it stands for, so I feel quite strongly about not migrating towards it.
No worries. Use what works for you. Doing things in linux always took me forever. You can defer updates for 35 days at a time. At my age I prefer to be the water that goes around the rock and windows 10 is my best path atm. Good luck with all you do !

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-d...etting-updates
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:57 AM   #8
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If you are planning to continue to use Windows VST plugins and other Windows software then I recommend you continue to use Windows. It's not impossible to make Windows VST plugins work in Linux but the fact you seem scared to learn about a new OS hints that you might not like jumping through any hoops that are required.

Each OS has things about it that you need to learn. Current Linux distros are lot better at being user-friendly than they used to be, but you will still have to go through some growing pains once in a while.

If you are not using any Windows software in Linux then I think the biggest change you'll notice is how you install software. The idea of simply downloading an EXE and installing it is a foreign concept to Linux. You would generally install software through a software / package manager. It's a good system but you are not as free to mess around with different versions of software anytime you want without potentially making a conflict which requires resolving. There are other ways of installing software (for some things which are not available from a package manager) and some are easy to do, but you have to be careful about what you're doing so you don't cause conflicts in your system.

Another thing you might not be used to is the idea of running commands in Terminal sometimes. It's easier than ever because there's so much information you can easily search for on the Internet when you need to troubleshoot Linux. But the idea of typing commands like that scares some people off. A lot of times it's not even necessary to use Terminal, but since every distro is going to have Terminal (and the people giving troubleshooting advice want to make it general for as many people as possible), you'll find a lot of troubleshooting advice requires using Terminal.

Likewise if someone says you should build a particular software package (some software which is not in a package manager), well in that case you are going to have to be more comfortable using Terminal and doing any housekeeping on the system required. This will take more learning. It's not rocket science but some of it is esoteric when you're coming from Windows.

What might make the decision easier to assess is knowing what software you intend to run and if there are any substitutes you find acceptable available as native Linux software. Make a list of the things you find important and maybe we can help you decide if you can substitute the software.

Also your particular audio device might not be compatible in certain ways so it's good to mention that too. Lots of audio interfaces work fine in Linux but some of them don't have drivers and also a lot of them won't have the same control panels / mixers available to them (since that part is actually Windows software).

I'm running native Linux software only. I installed Jack just for the odd thing; I don't need it for Reaper. I don't have Wine installed. My day-to-day experience in Linux is virtually the same as anyone's in Windows.
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Old 08-08-2019, 08:32 AM   #9
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Win10 is not as bad as it was. Cortana can now be fully disabled along with all the other bloat.

Having just done the upgrade after stubbornly refusing to do so for years, I have no regrets and I don't miss anything about 7. With Classic Shell and AeroGlass installed, the experience is almost identical, with some definite improvements.

It's definitely faster for me, but I've got a Ryzen. I did tests with LatencyMon to ensure it wasn't my imagination.
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Old 08-08-2019, 08:34 AM   #10
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@JamesPeters 100% agree
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:02 AM   #11
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Win10 is not as bad as it was. Cortana can now be fully disabled along with all the other bloat.

Having just done the upgrade after stubbornly refusing to do so for years, I have no regrets and I don't miss anything about 7. With Classic Shell and AeroGlass installed, the experience is almost identical, with some definite improvements.

It's definitely faster for me, but I've got a Ryzen. I did tests with LatencyMon to ensure it wasn't my imagination.
i have possibility to use different machines often, including latest intel and AMD machines and in my tests win10 wasn't faster than win7 on any machine, but on modern computers win10 works ok, i agree, while if you have old computer, like mine at home (Intel 2nd gen), it's better to stick with win7, less bugs, better driver compatibility, no annoying updates and other shite.



@danbb
I also hate, how win10 looks, awful design, actually it's not even a design, just a spit into customer's face, i wonder, how they designed it: "What, if we won't make beautiful functional interface and will make just some lazy mockup, will save a bunch of money, customers are stupid bovini, they will eat everything anyway".

You can try Manjaro distributive, from all distributives i tried, it's closest to Windows, pretty easy to use and if i remember correctly no need to use terminal in 99%, but i had some strange bugs, so i moved on to another distro, but maybe it will work ok for you.
Also very cool distributive is Ubuntu Studio, it comes with pre-installed audio/video/photo apps, Jack, Real-time core ,etc.
Now i use Debian+default interface(GNOME, i guess) from time to time, because it's very simple, fast, small and clean. but i wouldn't recommend it to someone as a first linux try.
I personally planning to stay on Windows 7 as my main OS for awhile, maybe few years, because alot off apps and VSTi i use don't work so good on linux as on Windows or don't work at all, atleast yet, than time will show what to do.
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:06 AM   #12
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i have possibility to use different machines often, including latest intel and AMD machines and in my tests win10 wasn't faster than win7 on any machine, but on modern computers win10 works ok, i agree, while if you have old computer, like mine at home (Intel 2nd gen), it's better to stick with win7, less bugs, better driver compatibility, no annoying updates and other shite.



@danbb
I also hate, how win10 looks, awful design, actually it's not even a design, just a spit into customer's face, i wonder, how they designed it: "What, if we won't make beautiful functional interface and will make just some lazy mockup, will save a bunch of money, customers are stupid bovini, they will eat everything anyway".

You can try Manjaro distributive, from all distributives i tried, it's closest to Windows, pretty easy to use and if i remember correctly no need to use terminal in 99%, but i had some strange bugs, so i moved on to another distro, but maybe it will work ok for you.
Also very cool distributive is Ubuntu Studio, it comes with pre-installed audio/video/photo apps, Jack, Real-time core ,etc.
Now i use Debian+default interface(GNOME, i guess) from time to time, because it's very simple, fast, small and clean. but i wouldn't recommend it to someone as a first linux try.
I personally planning to stay on Windows 7 as my main OS for awhile, maybe few years, than time will show what to do.
I guarantee you this is how it was designed.

1. Management comes in and says "We have to support cell phones in windows 8".
2. Devs "It will require an entire rewrite of the gui engine and take a few years.
3. You have 3 months.
4. Devs "fuck it"
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:15 AM   #13
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If you are planning to continue to use Windows VST plugins and other Windows software then I recommend you continue to use Windows. It's not impossible to make Windows VST plugins work in Linux but the fact you seem scared to learn about a new OS hints that you might not like jumping through any hoops that are required.
Regarding this, I only run a handful of Windows programs in Linux, mainly because I was able to use the very same applications in most cases. Firefox, Thunderbird, Stellarium, Hand Break, Google Earth, REAPER, Kodi, VLC, Etc., all have native Linux versions, so the only Windows apps I run are things like my own custom programmed stock ticker, programming editor, old NNTP news reader (Xnews) that I prefer to use for old school NNTP forums.

As far as VST plugins go, I'm using almost zero Windows audio plugins and have found free and paid native Linux audio plugins that work just as well as the Windows ones I have, but for VSTi instrument plugins, the selection of native Linux plugs is more sparse, so I use Kontakt, Arturia Minimoog, Toontrack's EZ-Keys, EZ-Drummer, and Superior Drummer plus a few others with zero issues.

I do also have a fully functional and set in stone version of Windows 7 as an alternate boot up option. I deactivated the network interface for the Win7 side, and did have to re-activate Windows 7 using the touch tone phone option, but now it will work till Hell freezes over without network connectivity or until I smoke it for the space it is taking up on my SSD.

Also, Windows 7 updates are failing on ALL my Windows 7 boxes because Microsoft is rolling out the same nagging they did several years ago with their heavy handed attempt to force you into Windows 10. I disabled all the mechanisms they were using then, and now the last time updates tried to install on my last Win7 machines, it fails and rolls back which is fine with me as one machine is permanently off the internet now, and the other final Win7 box will be converted to Xubuntu before the year is out.
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:30 AM   #14
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You can try Manjaro distributive, from all distributives i tried, it's closest to Windows, pretty easy to use and if i remember correctly no need to use terminal in 99%, but i had some strange bugs, so i moved on to another distro, but maybe it will work ok for you.
I have never had to compile anything on my Xubuntu, and do almost everything using a GUI interface. The only stuff I ever do in a terminal is usually security related, like checking if microcode is being updated, or what vulnerabilities have been addressed, but for every day use, I never get into a terminal even though I am quite comfortable using one stemming back to my days as an expert in a command prompt world with Amiga and DOS based machines.

One of the lightest desktops is xfce, and it works great on older hardware which is why I initially chose it for a MythTV server in a back room. Later when I started trying different flavors of Linux on my DAW, I found that the lightweight xfce desktop in Xubuntu was my favorite there as well, after trying Manjaro, Mint, MX Linux, Ubuntu, AV Linux, and some others.
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:04 AM   #15
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I have never had to compile anything on my Xubuntu,
That reminds me: I built the latest update to SWS yesterday. Justin made some fixes in it to go along with some changes in the latest Reaper dev builds. Let me know if you want the compiled files.
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:38 AM   #16
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That reminds me: I built the latest update to SWS yesterday. Justin made some fixes in it to go along with some changes in the latest Reaper dev builds. Let me know if you want the compiled files.
Thanks for the offer James, but I have never used anything that hooks itself into REAPER unless it comes straight from Cockos. I've had multiple bad experiences with other products when there were too many 3rd party cooks in the kitchen, and since I record pretty straight forward just like using rolls of old school 1" tape, I don't find myself really needing more than the basic tool set that a stock REAPER offers for multi-track recording of performances and then playing them back.
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:45 AM   #17
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heh, i find myself comfortable with only REAPER too , no SWS, no ReaPack or anything else, no scripts, just nude REAPER (the only exception is my own tiny extension)
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Old 08-08-2019, 10:54 AM   #18
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If you use plugins, it's essentially the same thing as loading SWS - except SWS would be safer since some of those devs are/were so closely aligned with Reaper. Not to kick you guys in the nuts or anything but the SWS reasoning given is kind of weird.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:07 AM   #19
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heh, i find myself comfortable with only REAPER too , no SWS, no ReaPack or anything else, no scripts, just nude REAPER (the only exception is my own tiny extension)
Yup. If REAPER starts acting weird, I have fewer places to look for where the root of the problem stems.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:11 AM   #20
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If you use plugins, it's essentially the same thing as loading SWS - except SWS would be safer since some of those devs are/were so closely aligned with Reaper. Not to kick you guys in the nuts or anything but the SWS reasoning given is kind of weird.
Just a couple of posts back, James mentioned that Justin had to make adjustments for some issue with SWS. I don't want that on my plate with the meat and potatoes that I get with REAPER by itself.

Besides, press record, play something, press play, hear something. How would SWS extensions make that better for me, coz it's all I need in REAPER.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:11 AM   #21
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If you use plugins, it's essentially the same thing as loading SWS - except SWS would be safer since some of those devs are/were so closely aligned with Reaper. Not to kick you guys in the nuts or anything but the SWS reasoning given is kind of weird.
if you use SWS, then yes, i just don't need all SWS functionality anymore, my workflow became very simplified, that's it.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:20 AM   #22
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if you use SWS, then yes, i just don't need all SWS functionality anymore, my workflow became very simplified, that's it.
Right, I just meant the hooked in danger/worry. No biggie.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:57 AM   #23
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Right, I just meant the hooked in danger/worry. No biggie.
Here's what kind of stuff I never ever have to deal with.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=223902

Does REAPER have a bug or is it the 3rd party stuff I bolted onto it?
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:04 PM   #24
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The key term was "I don't want anything hooking in" but that is exactly what anything other than Reaper.exe does, including VSTs and so on. If the new term is "I think SWS can be buggy" then no argument from me per se.

Of the myriad of great features SWS has though, a handful are buggy, same for Reaper as well. I can guarantee though you are not going to suddenly start getting crashes just because it's DLL is in the plugin folder and being loaded.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:14 PM   #25
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The key term was "I don't want anything hooking in" but that is exactly what anything other than Reaper.exe does, including VSTs and so on.

Of the myriad of great features SWS has, a handful are buggy, same for Reaper.
OK, but are SWS extensions there, with their hooks in REAPER, even when I'm not using them? I mean, if I don't add any plugins at all to a project, then there are zero hooks from anybody but Cockos being serviced. Is that true of SWS extensions or are they always lingering in the shadows, waiting for their hook to get the call?

Either way, I don't need them. I don't use 90% of all the stuff that comes with a stock install of REAPER. Takes are disabled here for instance. If the part I just recorded isn't the one, then I record again until I hear one that is the one. Just like I did it with the 1" Ampex AG440B-8 studio recorder I used to own. Really the only thing I use that's much different than working with tape is automation, and I use it pretty infrequently because most of my mixes are static where the balance of the instruments and vocals never changes unless the players/vocalists do it through dynamics.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:24 PM   #26
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OK, but are SWS extensions there, with their hooks in REAPER, even when I'm not using them? I mean, if I don't add any plugins at all to a project, then there are zero hooks from anybody but Cockos being serviced. Is that true of SWS extensions or are they always lingering in the shadows, waiting for their hook to get the call?
It loads the DLL to create the items in the extension menu but "hooking" isn't really the best term as that is typically about intercepting a function call, prying open memory, inserting your code, running it, then returning the call to where it would have went. SWS is an extension using an official API to do where it is more of a contract - similar and nitpicky yes but it does matter because the former carries an earned stench the latter doesn't.

That said, once the library is loaded, that's it, there is no code or boogieman getting in the way, causing issues or crashes, it's just importing function calls in the event you decide to call them - if you call them and use them and there is a bug in the code called, then that's when it affects you.

I certainly have no problem if someone does or doesn't want to use it or reapack but it's important readers understand so they can make a good decision either way. IOW, it doesn't need to be oversold or undersold, it just needs to be accurate. Barring any mistakes I myself made in explaining.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:32 PM   #27
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It loads the DLL to create the items in the extension menu but "hooking" isn't really the best term as that is typically about intercepting a function call, prying open memory, inserting your code, running it, then returning the call to where it would have went. SWS is an extension using an official API to do where it is more of a contract - similar and nitpicky yes but it does matter because the former carries an earned stench the latter doesn't.

That said, once the library is loaded, that's it, there is no code or boogieman getting in the way, causing issues or crashes, it's just importing function calls in the event you decide to call them - if you call them and use them and there is a bug in the code called, then that's when it affects you.

I certainly have no problem if someone does or doesn't want to use it or reapack but it's important readers understand as accurately as possible so they can make a good decision either way. IOW, it doesn't need to be oversold or undersold, it just needs to be accurate. Barring any mistakes I myself made in explaining.
OK, say I install the SWS extensions, but I never use them at all.

Is the library for SWS being loaded every time I launch REAPER in that scenario?
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:38 PM   #28
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I really don't like windows 10.....
There are tweaks that should help. See the sticky thread in the "Live" forum.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:41 PM   #29
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OK, say I install the SWS extensions, but I never use them at all.

Is the library for SWS being loaded every time I launch REAPER in that scenario?
Yea, like I said it loads the library of 4MB into memory, just like every other DLL in the reaper folder that gets loaded...

I just don't want to boogieman loading a library vs calling functions in it too much that's all. After all these years, it just sitting there and causing issues should be incredibly rare.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:43 PM   #30
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OK, say I install the SWS extensions, but I never use them at all.

Is the library for SWS being loaded every time I launch REAPER in that scenario?
SWS launches everytime you launch reaper. SWS has some code, which runs in background and waits for call, also SWS gets a bit of memory space, but the occupied space and cpu usage are so negligibly small, that you should not bother about it at all from performance perspective, also you can trigger a bug only if you run some action or function or open some SWS window, etc.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:47 PM   #31
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SWS launches everytime you launch reaper. SWS has some code, which runs in background and waits for call, also SWS gets a bit of memory space, but the occupied space and cpu usage are so negligibly small, that you should not bother about it at all from performance perspective, also you can trigger a bug only if you run some action or function or open some SWS window, etc.
Correct.
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:05 PM   #32
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Yea, like I said it loads the library of 4MB into memory, just like every other DLL in the reaper folder that gets loaded...

I just don't want to boogieman loading a library vs calling functions in it too much that's all. After all these years, it just sitting there and causing issues should be incredibly rare just like all of these.
If it auto loads every time REAPER loads, then it's hooked into REAPER in my book. Anything that leeches a ride with an app I'm using is a potential boogieman from my point of view. In another incarnation as programmer, I've seen weird stuff like memory use by one app causing problems with other apps before, even though they should have complete and separate memory space.
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:14 PM   #33
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If it auto loads every time REAPER loads, then it's hooked into REAPER in my book. Anything that leeches a ride with an app I'm using is a potential boogieman from my point of view. In another incarnation as programmer, I've seen weird stuff like memory use by one app causing problems with other apps before, even though they should have complete and separate memory space.
Your book and point of view are fine to have, but that wording above may turn someone away based on fear instead of accuracy, that isn't really fair to them. But.... it's better if several explain the details, then the reader can read all the posts, including yours and make their own decision which is the only reason I posted to begin with. Often when I say I'm not trying to argue, I'm really not, it's simply for those reading to get all the info.
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:17 PM   #34
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Your book and point of view are fine to have, but that wording above may turn someone away based on fear instead of accuracy, that isn't really fair to them. But.... it's better if several explain the details, then the reader can read all the posts and make their own decision which is the only reason I posted to begin with. Often when I say I'm not trying to argue, I'm really not, it's simply for those reading to get all the info.
On the flip side, how many people would know that SWS loads every time REAPER loads, then twiddles it's thumbs in the background waiting to do something if it weren't for the use of my book? <GGG>
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:35 PM   #35
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Your book and point of view are fine to have, but that wording above may turn someone away based on fear instead of accuracy, that isn't really fair to them.
I agree.

Do whatever you want, Glen, but have some respect for the devs of SWS including Justin who contributed recently (at the very least if not also in the past). It's as stable as anything I've ever relied on; it's been on my system with Reaper as soon as I learned of its existence, and used it on every OS (Windows, OSX, and a few Linux distributions). You don't notice me making threads talking about how SWS is crashing Reaper. And I've done comparisons to Reaper installs without SWS; I saw no discernible difference in performance.

Besides Glen, you use Windows plugins bridged in Linux. The way I see it, your system is far from "pure".

PS. I don't use SWS for much. It has some functions which get called with some scripts, it has the odd action which is really handy for me, and it has "Auto track color/icon/layout" which I like. (Even that last thing, you might appreciate.)
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Old 08-08-2019, 01:46 PM   #36
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SWS is awesome and makes Reaper kick into turbo drive. If your cpu is so weak that it is hit by SWS you're running a dog pc.
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:02 PM   #37
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OK, say I install the SWS extensions, but I never use them at all.
Do you use scripts? A decent number of them (notably some of my fancier ones) use features provided by SWS.
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:27 PM   #38
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I agree.

Do whatever you want, Glen, but have some respect for the devs of SWS including Justin who contributed recently (at the very least if not also in the past). It's as stable as anything I've ever relied on; it's been on my system with Reaper as soon as I learned of its existence, and used it on every OS (Windows, OSX, and a few Linux distributions). You don't notice me making threads talking about how SWS is crashing Reaper. And I've done comparisons to Reaper installs without SWS; I saw no discernible difference in performance.

Besides Glen, you use Windows plugins bridged in Linux. The way I see it, your system is far from "pure".

PS. I don't use SWS for much. It has some functions which get called with some scripts, it has the odd action which is really handy for me, and it has "Auto track color/icon/layout" which I like. (Even that last thing, you might appreciate.)
Cool with me, but do take note that my first post mentioning SWS extensions was in response to your offer for a precompiled version of it. When I said "I have never used anything that hooks itself into REAPER unless it comes straight from Cockos", it wasn't an attempt to talk anyone else out of using them or to piss off the grammar pleece patrolling the groops.

As for the bridged plugins I use, there is no replacement for Kontakt that is a native Linux plugin, and unlike the SWS extensions, I can't live without that. Just try emulating George Martin orchestration with the SWS extensions and you'll see what I mean.
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Old 08-08-2019, 02:39 PM   #39
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Do you use scripts? A decent number of them (notably some of my fancier ones) use features provided by SWS.
No scripts at all used here. My use of REAPER is pretty simple. I use record, playback, stop, rewind, along with the FX bins for adding EQ, compression, limiting, delay, reverb, Etc., and maybe some automation if a part needs to be goosed or ducked somewhere in the project. That is about the extent of what I use in REAPER. I could do pretty much the same with an old fashioned tape recorder. It just wouldn't sound as good.
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Old 08-08-2019, 04:57 PM   #40
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Again, use whatever you want. I just object to your use of strong language that implies SWS is a problem waiting to happen. So is every piece of software, if you look at it under that kind of lens. Any software/plugins/extensions can have bugs and/or incompatibility. SWS goes through "growing pains" once in a while as Reaper matures, but they get ironed out and/or more native actions get added to Reaper.

Currently there are improvements to Reaper's UI efficiency (in the pre-release builds), and some aspects of the API were modified. That broke some compatibility with some aspects of SWS. Justin fixed it within a couple days. All this happened during pre-release dev builds, so the only people who would've noticed are the ones using the pre-release builds. I offered the built (latest) SWS files knowing how chicken you are about building things. But no good deed goes unpunished, I guess.
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