Old 04-22-2019, 04:15 AM   #1
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Default functional but doesn't work

Been a Reaper user on windows for 5+ years. The windows update situation had me looking for another OS here in the studio. Spent over a week playing around with different linux builds and reaper for linux.

I was definitely expecting more! While the core software seemed to work on all builds as it would play through the computer monitor speakers with a bit of tweaking the soundcard setting in linux. Other than that it was totally useless...... I could find no way to rout audio through my Focusrite Saphire interface. No drivers apparently exist for this. If I had a cheap little bedroom type interface like a scarlett apearentnly It may have been made to work with WINE but I couldn't get the saphire online though I could see it in the UI.

VST's and soft sythns were another issue, no drivers again. None of the manufacturers seem to be very interested in providing support of any type for linux. So that leaves a DAW that really cannot stand alone. Without builtin drivers or code to run drivers for another OS This DAW is worse than dealing with the windows 10 updates.

IMO until this version can run all necessary plugins and interfaces on it's own it will never actually be useful as a real DAW but rather some geek experiment for guys more into computer programming than recording and producing music.

My thoughts, anyways gotta run to stop today's windows update before it crashes my studio.
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Old 04-22-2019, 05:45 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by B.Howard View Post
None of the manufacturers seem to be very interested in providing support of ... linux.
(while e.g. there is Pianoteq for Linux...)

As there are so few DAWs that run on Linux, it does not make sense to them to invest any effort.

The existence, quality and and acceptance of Reaper for Linux might help on the long run.

Of course a built-in Windows-VST bridge in Reaper could help a lot in this quest.

-Michael
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Old 04-22-2019, 05:55 AM   #3
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The first six songs on my music page were all recorded in the Linux version of REAPER. Most of them are using lots of Windows plugins too. I've recently been looking at used rackmount audio interfaces and the Focusrite Saphire is one I've investigated. (I can do four simultaneous inputs with my two M-Audio Delta 2496 cards but am thinking about upgrading to something rack mountable that can do eight) Just a day or so ago I read a post on the net about setting one up in Linux and how to get all the channels working. The person posting said the ADAT interface was all they had not gotten working so far.

The point is that if you want to use Linux, it can be done, BUT it isn't going to be like Windows. It's going to require more work to get things figured out and working. I dislike Windows and Microsoft enough to put up with less compatibility, less support from 3rd parties, and more frustration getting it all to work in order to have better control over my own personal data and over what connections with internet servers that my machine is making.

This was one of the articles I mentioned.
https://linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic.php?t=18016
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:20 AM   #4
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I was definitely expecting more!
... some geek experiment for guys more into computer programming than recording and producing music
It seems as though you were the one doing the "geek experiment", if you dove in expecting to be able to run all Windows software/hardware in Linux without doing some Google searches first. My "geek experiment" on the other hand yielded a DAW system that's at least 30% more CPU efficient than Windows (using the same hardware), is more stable, runs at significantly lower latency with all the DAW software I need, and took no longer to set up than Windows (possibly less time overall).

As Glen says, it can take some work to get things set up in Linux. Or you can do as I did: choose an interface in advance which is known to work in Linux with no issues. The same can be said for all your computer's hardware. It's best to check in advance if it'll work in Linux and what its limitations are. Then you'll know if you need to do some work to get it running, or if you'd rather choose some other hardware. Linux, in a way, is like any operating system. It works with what it works with. It's up to you to figure that out. Some people run a "live" USB distro to help check if the hardware works, before doing an install to their HDD/SSD. (That's a good last step once you've done your homework, in my opinion.)

Focusrite Saffire will work in Linux. I did a Google search and immediately found a thread on Linuxmusicians forums with people talking about how to configure and make it work. (It seems it's the same thread that Glen found.) Tip: Google for "(hardware) Linux" and chances are you'll find some results of people discussing it.

There are lots of built-in drivers in the Linux kernel. Not everything is covered though. I find it impressive that so much is actually capable of running "right out of the gate" after a fresh install of a Linux distro.

When I switched to Linux I was fine with the software selection that is available for Linux. I'm not trying to run Windows software at all. But if you're an entrenched user of some Windows-only software (or also Mac software), you're going to have to deal with the fact you've just switched to a different OS with different software. Software companies can be reluctant to write software for Linux since maybe a few percent of worldwide computer users run Linux. You can make some Windows-based software work in Linux just fine (lots of it, actually), but this is a different OS so your expecations need adjusting.

You decide what's "necessary" for plugins, for you. I have more than enough software necessary to have a professional DAW, for my needs. For that matter I could use strictly freeware/open-source software and have a DAW that people 20 years ago would've been jealous of.

I have no idea what you mean when you said "no drivers again" when referring to VSTi. VSTi are just plugins, not drivers.

If you want to give Linux a proper evaluation, you'll need to get your interface working and then see if you can make whatever Windows-based software (I assume just some plugins) work in Linux. You can get help on this forum if you ask.
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:42 AM   #5
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It's also quite possible that by just using qJackCtrl he might be able to expose the eight channels of the Focusrite Saffire to REAPER.

I use the routing matrix in qJackQtrl to make my two M-Audio Delta 2496 cards show up as four discreet audio ports that REAPER can use.

It's funny because I've been looking at these . . .

Used Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 interfaces on GC's used pages. You can get 'em for as cheep as two hundred bucks.
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Old 04-22-2019, 07:16 PM   #6
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Never had a problem with Focusrite & Linux. They work well.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:30 AM   #7
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Who provides the drivers ?

-Michael
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:54 PM   #8
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IMO until this version can run all necessary plugins and interfaces on it's own
- It can run actual Linux VSTs just fine; you're (I'm assuming) trying to run VSTs from a different operating system through a wrapper. That's not Reaper's problem, and having to emulate enough of Windows to do that is well outside Reaper's scope.

- Likewise, the interface isn't Reaper's fault. Pretty much nobody offers proper Linux support, so everything is cobbled together by end-users. And again, that's outside of Reaper's control.

I agree that it's a crappy situation. My Roland Quad-Capture is able to get sound in and out, but I effectively have to choose between either the analog or SPDIF connections and the interface's knobs spontaneously decided to stop working.
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Old 04-23-2019, 11:27 PM   #9
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that's outside of Reaper's control.
From the User's POV, it's the same as with - say - 32 bit vs 64 bit Windows.

It's outside of Reaper's control that 32 Bit plugins (dlls) provided by 3rd parties don't run with the 64 bit version of Reaper and vice versa, but in their incredible helpfulness, the Reaper devs included a courtesy "bridge" software functionality in the distribution that automatically is activated when necessary. (Even though there is a 3rd party JBRIDGE product available that does exactly that but needs to be instantiated / configured by the user for any such plugin.)

Something like this would be possible (even if a lot more complex to be accomplished) for running VST crafted for Windows in a Reaper version crafted for Linux.

-Michael
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Old 04-24-2019, 06:42 AM   #10
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From the User's POV, it's the same as with - say - 32 bit vs 64 bit Windows.
Except you're running Windows VSTs on something that isn't Windows - there should be no expectation on any user's part that it will work smoothly.

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Something like this would be possible (even if a lot more complex to be accomplished) for running VST crafted for Windows in a Reaper version crafted for Linux.
It already is, it's called LinVST, it requires Wine, and for me at least it's worked almost perfectly on everything I've tried.

Given how DIY Linux is already, why should Reaper be doing this when a good solution already exists? Should Reaper be bundling a custom version of Wine to make sure it works correctly?
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:01 AM   #11
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Except you're running Windows VSTs on something that isn't Windows
That's not something that the end user is interested in at all.

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Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
there should be no expectation on any user's part that it will work smoothly.
Of course it's only worth to be released if it in fact fulfills the users' expectations in most cases. The (abandoned) Muse Receptor did prove that this is possible in a well performing and user friendly way. And AFAIK, Wine is a lot more advanced than at the time Muse released that product series.

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It already is, it's called LinVST
This is what JBridge is for the 32 Bit / 64 Bit issue. So it should be able to automatically be installed by Reaper in a similar (but of course under the hood by far more complex) way. (AFAIK there is "WineLib", providing the functionality of Wine to be implemented within 3rd party programs. I don't know if LinVST uses same or needs to explicitly needs Wine as an executable.)

Of course I do know that there are a lot of licensing, version control and other non-technical issues. The devs need to decide how hard they want to push forward the Linux thingy. But as this sounds like fun, who knows....

-Michael

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Old 04-24-2019, 08:03 AM   #12
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That's not something that the end user is interested in at all.

The (abandoned) Muse Receptor did prove that this is possible in a well performing and user friendly way.
-Michael
I wonder why it was abandoned.

Not always about what the end-user expects.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:04 AM   #13
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When I first came to Linux about 8 or 9 months ago, I had zero expectations that REAPER would be usable and set my machine up to dual boot Windows 7 and Xubuntu.

I thought I would use Windows 7 offline since support ends in 2020, and do everything besides music in Linux which would be online.

I never even tried the Windows version in WINE, but a month after installing Linux Justin dropped the test version for Linux on the main site, so I grabbed it. A week later I posted about the high latency I was getting with Windows plugins but I was using "airwave" as my VST bridge and could only run it with a minimum of 512 samples.

Then I found LinVST and can now run Windows plugins at the same 64 samples latency that I used in Windows. Since then I have replaced most of my audio processing plugins with native Linux versions, some free and some paid.

Because of all this unexpected success in running REAPER for Linux, I am now contemplating the vaporization of the Windows 7 half of my dual boot DAW, because I need Windows that much.

In summary, my experience with REAPER after switching OSs has been quite like my move from Win7 32-bit to Win7 64-bit. When I moved to 64-bit, every one of my plugins were bridged except for the native REAPER plugs. One-by-one I replaced them with native 64-bit versions only using a handful that I couldn't find replacements for. That's where I'm at with REAPER for Linux. Only stuff I'm bridging now are VSTi plugins like Kontakt, Piano Essentials, Superior Drummer, Etc. Almost all my audio VST plugs are now native Linux, and I'm only still bridging a couple like PSP Vintage Warmer which I'll eventually replace with U-he's "Presswerk", but are going to cost me some coin to do.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:20 AM   #14
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I wonder why it was abandoned..
That can't be compared, as the Receptor product is a hardware box. It never was advertised to use Linux, they simply claimed that Windows VSTs would run. They even did a bundle-deal with Native Instruments products for some time.

I suppose it was abandoned, as selling dedicated hardware for such applications is a rather hard job.

-Michael
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:26 AM   #15
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Only stuff I'm bridging now are VSTi plugins like Kontakt....
Obviously. As there is not even no Linux version of Kontakt itself, but also no Linux product that is able to "run" the thousands of Kontakt libraries that are available.

Hence, a kind of script or installer that without the user needing any expertise installs and manages Kontakt (full and Player, including Licensing Kontakt itself and any payed Linraries with NI) would be a huge first step.

-Michael

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Old 04-24-2019, 08:30 AM   #16
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That's not something that the end user is interested in at all.
Then the end user is, quite frankly, an idiot. You wouldn't use a Mac and expect Windows software to work, or vice versa. Nobody should be installing Reaper on Linux under the impression that they'll be able to use their non-Linux plugins out of the box.

Quote:
This is what JBridge is for the 32 Bit / 64 Bit issue. So it should be able to automatically be installed by Reaper in a similar (but of course under the hood by far more complex) way.
Bridging 32<->64 is effectively a big pile of math. Running Windows software on something that isn't Windows is nowhere near as straightforward because all of the runtimes and libraries Windows provides are simply not there.

LinVST works really well, but it requires that you have Wine installed and can require a special Wine config for some plugins. Reaper simply cannot emulate enough of Windows to do this without involving Wine.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:48 AM   #17
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That can't be compared, as the Receptor product is a hardware box. It never was advertised to use Linux, they simply claimed that Windows VSTs would run. They even did a bundle-deal with Native Instruments products for some time.

I suppose it was abandoned, as selling dedicated hardware for such applications is a rather hard job.

-Michael
It is as valid a comparison as using Receptor as an example that the REAPER developers should make and actively maintain a bridge for Windows plugins within Linux.

Yes, Receptor was a hardware box. It was also rather expensive. What do you think the incentive was for its engineers and developers. They got paid well. And still it was abandoned.

You keep popping up on threads trying to make a point that the REAPER developers should do this. I would not expect that of them and I don't think you should either. Remember it's not just about making the functionality, it's about actively maintaining it indefinitely.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:59 AM   #18
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Obviously. As there is not even no Linux version of Kontakt itself, but also no Linux product that is able to "run" the thousands of Kontakt libraries that are available.

Hence, a kind of script or installer that without the user needing any expertise installs and manages Kontakt (full and Player, including Licensing Kontakt itself and any payed Linraries with NI) would be a huge first step.

-Michael
Had I also bought 3rd party Kontakt libraries, I'm pretty sure I could get them to work in Linux. Unless their installers use PACE and an iLok dongle that is.

Like I told the original poster. It all depends on how much you want to be running Linux. I'm willing to put up with more difficult installs, and the possibility of some Windows plugin not installing or functioning in order to free myself of everything Microsoft.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:04 AM   #19
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LinVST works really well, but it requires that you have Wine installed and can require a special Wine config for some plugins. Reaper simply cannot emulate enough of Windows to do this without involving Wine.
Maybe Justin could just include a full embedded version of Windows 7 in REAPER for Linux for full compatibility with Windows plugins.
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:28 AM   #20
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Maybe Justin could just include a full embedded version of Windows 7 in REAPER for Linux for full compatibility with Windows plugins.
Windows XP, Windows 7, Windows 10, 32-bit and 64-bit, VST2 and VST3, for ARM and x86-64. All of it. "As a courtesy" to Linux users.

Also why not Mac OS plugins. Do it all!
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Old 04-24-2019, 11:26 AM   #21
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REAPER for Linux should also include Pro Tools while at it, so that we can use AAX and RTAS plugins.
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Old 04-24-2019, 11:46 AM   #22
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They should also just embed Da Vinci Resolve rather than continuing with the video processor plugin.
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Old 04-24-2019, 01:14 PM   #23
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You keep popping up on threads trying to make a point that the REAPER developers should do this.
Only as an answer to somebody poping up and claiming that Reaper for Linux is a nonsense product, to show that there might be improvements in the pipeline that might pop up at some point in time.

-Michael (always happy that the devs do what they think is fun)
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:01 PM   #24
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Only as an answer to somebody poping up and claiming that Reaper for Linux is a nonsense product, to show that there might be improvements in the pipeline that might pop up at some point in time.

-Michael (always happy that the devs do what they think is fun)
You seem more happy to try to convince others to gang up on the devs do what you want.

If you actually want to help people like the OP, how about helping him understand LinVST. Or if you think making a Windows VST bridge in Reaper for Linux is so easy to do, especially since you've mentioned you're a programmer, I nominate you to do it.

While you're at it, you can write documentation for all the JS plugins, including all third-party ones and all scripts. How's that quest going for you? (Yes, that's another thing you kept insisting people do on various threads, to the point of lying about having trouble using the plugins and scripts.)

If anyone thinks "Reaper for Linux is a nonsense product", they're an idiot.
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:41 PM   #25
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The OP in the Thread topic suggests that Reaper for Linux is a nonsense product.
So trying to provide any help to him does not seem to make sense.

I understood your explanation that LinVST is exactly that "Bridge". It's just not integrated in Reaper (while the 32/64 Bit bridge is).

(As you might have noticed I started an effort to do an "online" (i.e. usable for non-experts) documentation for the Reaper stock JSFXes, but again this needs integration in Reaper and ReaPack to be useful, and as this does not happen this project is stalled. Regarding 3rd party JSFXes the main problem is that there often is not even a hint what can be done with them, and even if there is, there is no way to find it if not knowing the thing in advance. Of course all JSFXes I wrote are (hopefully sufficiently) documented and available and findable in ReaPack.)

And in fact I don't "request" anything for myself. Of course it would be great if it would be possible to move my "Live" setup to Linux, but I am not in a hurry with this. I just try to provide some research results I came across to those who might be interested.

-Michael

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Old 04-24-2019, 04:03 PM   #26
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The only way to help the OP is to address his issue in a way that is sensible: help him get his system working the way it's intended to work. Want to use Windows software? Use Windows, or use some WINE-based solution.

Showing up to say "maybe the REAPER devs will add functionality to run Windows plugins" is ridiculous at best. You're not "providing some research results". You're trying to get more people to push the development of REAPER in the direction *you* want. Stop pretending it's any different.

Like your previous quest insisting all JS plugins and scripts should have documentation, this makes no sense. If the developers of the scripts and plugins want to make documentation, that's great. If not, that's also great--because they're making free software and scripts available to everyone. You were harassing them on several threads. (Way to show your appreciation for their work that you're not paying for!)

Again, you claimed to be a programmer. Why don't you make a bridge such as this. It's easy, right? It would be perfect for everyone and make REAPER for Linux "not a nonsense product", right? Then do it.
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Old 04-25-2019, 12:14 AM   #27
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(way off topic...)

James, while your opinions are perfectly welcome, please try to stay with the facts.

I never said "its easy". On the contrary I verbally said (twice) "a lot more complex to be accomplished". I just claimed that is seems to be possible, providing the example of the Muse "Receptor" product, that works exactly in that way: in PC-Linux providing a Windows-alike environment for Windows VSTs by using the open source "WineLib" (and not working with any other then PC hardware and other plugin standards but Windows VST, so I can't discuss those at all).)

My "suggestion" (or whatever) is a bridge built in Reaper in the same way as the 32/64 bit bridge is built in. As Reaper is not open source, this can (and should) only be done by the Reaper devs themselves. (In case they decide it's fun to do it. BTW thanks a lot for their GREAT work !)

And regarding documenting Stock and User plugins, this is only possible in a viable, easy usable way, since we have ReaPack (Thanks a lot to cfillion !!! ). Hence it is no wonder that older work does not feature appropriate documentation. But stating that such work is hard to use and that this is a sad situation regarding the great stuff laying around and being hard to access is just stating the obvious. (My latest research was about LBX Stripper and I am crying tears about what seems to be possible with it but inaccessible to the "public" in any straight forward way due to lack of "findability" and documentation. Even though I think I did a rather decent research regarding using Reaper in certain kinds of "Live" situations, it would never had occurred to me that LBX Stripper might be a tool to accomplish this, until I very recently happened to come across the great Video by Pipelineaudio about this issue. Thanks a lot to pipeline for this ! )

-Michael (hating cryptic screen names)

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Old 04-25-2019, 02:33 AM   #28
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Talking about Win VST plugins there's something I've always wonder, if the basis of Mac Os is Linux then why not try to bridge MAC VST plugins rather than trying to bridge Win VST plugins?

Wouldn't it be easier to do?
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Old 04-25-2019, 02:50 AM   #29
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Talking about Win VST plugins there's something I've always wonder, if the basis of Mac Os is Linux then why not try to bridge MAC VST plugins rather than trying to bridge Win VST plugins?
The basis of Mac OS is not Linux but some version of BSD Unix. But of course your argument is correct, as Linux and BSD both are siblings of the grand old Unix project.

But the Unix / Linux API is just the environment for the "standard functional processing" of the software. There are lots of other APIs that are very different between BSD and Linux, and even between different Linux distributions. E.g. the Graphical and the Audio subsystem.

Maybe Windows seems less of a moving target here and hence the open source "Wine" "Linux -> Windows Bridge" became popular (and available in free versions) , while "Linux -> Mac Bridge" projects - that I suppose do exist - are hidden somewhere.
-Michael
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