Old 11-18-2018, 11:46 AM   #1
Jae.Thomas
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Default I love this Squire VM Jaguar...



.. but the first few frets are a bit sharp. I was thinking of working on the nut a bit, or getting a graphtech nut for it.

I already have a thread going with a discussion of getting small files - but the intonation is right, the neck is straight, and yet the intonation feels weird to me...

E is 0 cents, F is 4/5 cents sharp.

am I just being annoying?
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Old 11-18-2018, 12:53 PM   #2
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leave the nut alone if the strings are right up further


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Old 11-18-2018, 01:06 PM   #3
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it's not perfect. I need to learn more about this - an open E chord sounds odd to me, in a way it doesn't sound odd on the strat. Funny enough, when im playing gigs it doesn't bother me. Only when recording.
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Old 11-18-2018, 02:06 PM   #4
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how are the notes say above the third fret Jason?

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Old 11-18-2018, 02:16 PM   #5
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If your have sharp notes on the first few frets, say 1st up till the 4th or fifth frets it means the nut is too high off the frets.

What happens is your actually bending the string sharp as you fret it.

A general guide for the correct height is if you fret the string at the
3rd fret there should be only a bees dick of clearance under the string at the 1st fret.

You'll need to either take it to a good set up person in your area or it is an easy diy job if you have a set of nut files, just take it slow and keep each string height the same.
BE CAREFUL !! if you go too far you'll have to get a new nut as you'll get string buzz from open strings.

If you have a few guitars compare it to one of your guitars that plays true and use that as a guide.

Have fun.

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Old 11-18-2018, 06:01 PM   #6
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Yeah, pretty well every guitar I've ever acquired had this problem....as Wolffman explained, the nut slots need to be carefully cut down. Think of those guitars that have a zero fret....with an open string the clearance at the 1st fret is pretty well the same as the clearance at the 2nd fret when playing the first position..that's what you want. Just go real slow checking with a tuner after each gentle pass. If you've never done this before maybe get an old dirt cheap guitar to work on...it's a craft. Well worth learning how to do this sort of thing yourself.

Last edited by Goldreap; 11-18-2018 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 11-20-2018, 05:59 AM   #7
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Be very careful with files - I've seen more than one neck destroyed by people trying it for the first time.

This actually works pretty good for minor issues
http://www.fretrefinishing.com/fretdressingkits.html

I've done two squier Jazzmaster necks and they came out *really* nice.

edit: LOL - sorry, I thought you meant the frets were "sharp" (edges) not the "notes" were sharp! Nevermind....
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Old 11-20-2018, 12:58 PM   #8
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you first really need to draw a fretboard and strings
then check and set your intonation ie nut and bridge for each string
Then check notes writing in the results for all fret positions for each
string to the 12th fret
You will then have the info for a plan of attack!
Then you can start deciding what to do with your nut and fretboard

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Old 11-20-2018, 01:12 PM   #9
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Nut to high, I had that 'a little sharp' problem on a LesPaul copy I otherwise liked. Bought nut files from China dirt cheap. Filed down slit after slit CAREFULLY, managed to not over do it. Files did good job. Now fret 1-4 tuning is perfect and string height lower (bonus and big improvement in playability). Did the nut job on every guitar an bass i own. Wish I had done that years ago. Maybe a not a job for nervous first timers on an expensive instrument tho. A pro fix nut height easy and for not so much money i believe.
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Old 11-20-2018, 01:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldreap View Post
Yeah, pretty well every guitar I've ever acquired had this problem....as Wolffman explained, the nut slots need to be carefully cut down.
This sort of blows my mind a tiny bit, I just checked three of my guitars none have this issue. Of course it isn't possible not to bend a string 'slightly' sharp when fretting as it's impossible to move the string to the fret without increasing tension; it's also critically important to set intonation by fretting with some semblance of the pressure you actually play with.

Not saying JBM doesn't have the issue, it's just something I don't experience much, he should properly intone it using correct pressure then recheck it just to be sure, and confirm neck relief and overall string height is correct for sanity. Also, if it is merely nut height, why are you guys sawing on nut grooves when you could just remove a few microns from the bottom of the nut?
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Old 11-20-2018, 02:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Not saying JBM doesn't have the issue, it's just something I don't experience much,
Nut height ( too high ) is not a common problem on electric guitars, more so on the cheaper end of acoustic guitars but it does happen.

Our bass player got a used fender bass a while back and it was badly out of tune on the first few frets but after filing the nut and setting the neck relief and intonation it now plays sweet.

As far as filing the grooves vs the U/S of the nut, its a lot easier ( for inexperienced persons ) to file the grooves ( if you have the right files ) than to remove the nut, without damaging the guitar, also to remove material from the underside of the nut and keep it flat and square for maximum contact with the neck is almost impossible without the correct jig and a very sharp plane or good sanding block.

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Old 11-20-2018, 03:52 PM   #12
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Can you chuck in a photo of the tuning pegs strings area Jason
Just to keep an old man happy?

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Old 11-20-2018, 03:59 PM   #13
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I wrote this on your acoustic guitar problem post.
"I noticed something about the way you have your B String over the nut
I have a habit of winding my strings on the side of the tuner pegs that enable
the string to have a straighter ride over the nut change and see/hear if
anything happens, most of the strings could do with the same treatment in my
humble opinion."

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Old 11-20-2018, 08:06 PM   #14
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Neck relief, saddle height, intonation (saddle adjustment/the 12th fret harmonic thing), finger pressure....of course you want to have these things ballpark before attacking the nut, but none of these things affect 1st position sharpness any where near as much as optimising the nut slot. I believe that over the last few years some manufacturers have paid more attention to this, not just in terms of attention to nut slots, but by actually installing the nut a tiny bit forward (towards the bridge) from it's mathematically correct position. I know luthiers who have been doing this for years. I've done it with several of my guitars, some of them 'high end'. This sharpness due to adding tension when fretting happens on every position of course and to varying degrees dependent on a lot of things, but the killer is the first position (physics). In practice, if you get the first position happening, then you only need slight pressure differences to get the 2nd, 3rd etc in tune (given having adjusted overall intonation). But say a nut has been installed such that it's leading edge is actually in the mathematically correct position (to fit with the fret position calculations) then you'll never get the 1st position exactly right (because of the added tension when fretting) but you can at least optimise it. Of the 30 or so guitars I've owned all but maybe one needed a bit of nut slot work. Just shaving a bit off the bottom of a nut, apart from being technically difficult and potentially damaging, is not the answer, because the nut slots will probably still need to be fine tuned anyway..and individual strings have different tensions and thus will require slightly different nut slot heights. E.G. let's say a particular guitar comes from the factory where by fluke the nut is actually a tiny bit forward of mathematical...your bottom E string might well be OK even though the clearance is not bare minimum, but your D string (usually more tension than the low E) might need some nut filing. Take each string at a time, use a tuner, tune the open string, play the 1st position with minimal pressure, figure out what needs doing. But of course if you don't feel confident about it don't do it yourself.
BTW, just a reminder...even if your guitar is 'perfectly' intoned, you'll still experience some 'out of tune-ness' because it's tempered tuning...another topic really.
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:23 PM   #15
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I get all that but I think the above comes down to "personal tolerances" because if most of thirty of your instruments have it and hardly any of my 15 do then that has to be part of it. In 35 years of playing this hasn't been a problem in my life (maybe once or twice at most and I'm guessing on those) and my guitars surely aren't that out of tune. My setup acumen is good enough to be confident of that.

^that doesn't include JBM, if he picks the guitar up and hears this I believe him, it's just an issue that isn't common for me or most of the professionals I happen to play and work with for whatever reason, but as I said, personal tolerances. It's also possible this is something small that I've grown to adjust with my playing after all these years, guitars are like that, aka imperfect and the playing of them, even how in tune they sound falls into the player's hands to some extent.
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Old 11-20-2018, 08:59 PM   #16
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it's so weird.. the tuning on the strat sounds so right to me... the tuning on the jag feels odd when i play an "E" chord.

but i wonder if it's the resonances coming from behind the bridge?!?!?

I just don't know. It doesn't feel too stable. I'm gonna take it to someone I trust tomorrow for an opinion in person, but you all have been very helpful
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Old 11-20-2018, 10:16 PM   #17
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Hey JBM, maybe Karbo's right, the nut thing (cents disparity) you're measuring is within your personal tolerance and is not actually what's bothering you, but rather it's to do with the general instability of the axe...short scale (floppier strings), dodgy tremolo come back, bend a string..it slides over the bridge..doesn't come back fully)?
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:53 AM   #18
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JBM, I think a couple of things are at play with your Jaguar.

First is that a Jaguar is a significantly shorter scale guitar than a strat. Jaguar's feel and sound looser. You know that feel and sound of a guitar when the strings are slacked a bit? It's the same sort of thing.

And if the nut slots are a bit high, causing sharpening of notes at the first fret, it is going to be exaggerated by the shorter scale.

So then, it definitely wouldn't hurt to try and get the guitar setup dialed in, including the nut. But keep in mind too that a Jaguar is a different sort of guitar than a strat. It's loose and sloppy by it's nature, so try and work with that to see if it brings out a different way of playing for you, rather than trying to play it like a strat.
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Old 12-03-2018, 06:10 AM   #19
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ok, so I had a guy look at it - a new guy from down near scranton.

We have more gigs down there these days, and I don't really trust the local guy here, so we went down that way.

He brought out some tool with what looked like a pressure meter and little spears that went down on my fretboard...

and then proceeded to shave the nut slots down.

... plays amazing.

He did it whilst we waited
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Old 12-03-2018, 03:19 PM   #20
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Good to hear

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Old 12-03-2018, 03:25 PM   #21
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https://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tool...ing_Gauge.html

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Old 12-04-2018, 01:26 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
.. but the first few frets are a bit sharp. I was thinking of working on the nut a bit, or getting a graphtech nut for it.

I already have a thread going with a discussion of getting small files - but the intonation is right, the neck is straight, and yet the intonation feels weird to me...

E is 0 cents, F is 4/5 cents sharp.

am I just being annoying?
Sounds like your nut slots aren't cut deep enough - there is a spec. for it.
First, you NEED the neck relief to be correct, then measure the distance under the string at the first fret with a feeler gauge - off the top of my head, I think it's 0.18-0.20 mm.
It's a pretty common 'thing' on mass produced Asian guitars.
Regarding fret ends, it's very humid where these things are made - like living in a sauna - so it may be the fret board's dried out and shrunk. I'd oil the board, and then if the frets are still rough after a couple of days, I'd file 'em. Fret work on these things does tend to be minimal at the factory. Some dealers sort it out, some don't. You often find the frets need levelling etc.
I converted one of those to 'Johnny Marr Sig' spec a couple of years back. Nice guitar for the dough, especually after the conversion.
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