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Old 03-05-2018, 09:16 AM   #81
azslow3
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Unfortunately the difference in format is too big...
It is going to be significant effort to support such old format,
I see three options:
1) support what I can from the project you have sent, that means:
tracks with clips (audio and MIDI), tempo map, markers. But in particular: NO routing (no buses, sends, etc), NO FXes/SoftSynth.
2) we can try to work together to find missing parts. I will need more projects, probably some special projects (you will need running Sonar for that).
3) we declare that format "too old" for the conversion. You still can install Sonar 8+ to get the data into Reaper.

What you think?
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Old 03-05-2018, 10:43 AM   #82
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dear azslow3,

Many thanks for your implication in helping me.
Unfortunately, as i said above, Sonar 8 is no more installed on my pc and i really can't reinstall it.
But your first solution would probably suit all my desires, that is to say mainly tracks (audio and midi), even tempo maps and markers.
It doesn't matter if i don't find the original FXs or Synths, because the ones i use today are no longer the same as those i used 15 or 20 years ago.
And it doesn't really impact the composition itself.
So thanks for this unexpected support of yours.
I suppose it will do for all my old projects.

I am looking forward to hearing from you soon

Regards

Last edited by jico27; 03-05-2018 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 03-06-2018, 06:07 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by jico27 View Post
dear azslow3,
I am looking forward to hearing from you soon
Regards
I have uploaded b40. I was able to get your project loaded with it.

WARNING: your project has absolute path to audio files, be careful when playing with conversion, if files are really on the drive G:, Reaper can think they are under its control

For already explained reason, converted are:
* tempo map
* markers (absolute markers can be wrong, I have not found frame rate)
* audio clips (stretched clips can be wrong, I have not found corresponding info)
* MIDI clips

NO mixing parameters, no FXes, no envelopes, no routing, project assumed to be 44100.
So, it is more then MIDI+WAV export/import, but much less then for "modern" (less then 10 years old) Sonars.

It can happened that some other projects still can not be loaded. In this case just upload another example (CWP only, no Audio) and send me the link (in PM).
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:32 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
I have uploaded b40. I was able to get your project loaded with it.

WARNING: your project has absolute path to audio files, be careful when playing with conversion, if files are really on the drive G:, Reaper can think they are under its control

For already explained reason, converted are:
* tempo map
* markers (absolute markers can be wrong, I have not found frame rate)
* audio clips (stretched clips can be wrong, I have not found corresponding info)
* MIDI clips

NO mixing parameters, no FXes, no envelopes, no routing, project assumed to be 44100.
So, it is more then MIDI+WAV export/import, but much less then for "modern" (less then 10 years old) Sonars.

It can happened that some other projects still can not be loaded. In this case just upload another example (CWP only, no Audio) and send me the link (in PM).
Dear Azslow, you make my day...
Thanks again for the great work and your help.
YES ! Version b40 can open nearly all of my old projects.
Audio and midi came properly. Tempo is perfect.
All i miss is just the name of FXs & Instr. so that i could know what to put instead.
But it's already a big pleasure to open these old things.
I'm trying to make a list of what doesn't work sometimes and i'll let you know if we can think of something better.


Regards
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Old 03-09-2018, 09:02 AM   #85
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Alexey - first, let me say thank you for implementing this functionality. I have finally tested it, and was able to quite easily get a SONAR project converted to Reaper that has failed all prior attempts.

The project functions 100% upon opening. However ...
The converted project structure is more complicated than it needs to be. I've read the thread at your site, but I'm still not certain if these side effects are intended. If they are, I'm still happy. If not, then maybe your conversion routine can be simplified.

Here's the scenario:
In SONAR I have a standard Instrument Track; separate MIDI & audio/VSTi tracks. The audio/VSTi track has a volume automation envelope.

The resulting Reaper project has a Synth Rack folder that contains the audio/VSTi track, which is also a folder that contains the MIDI track. This MIDI track has Parent Send disabled, and an explicit send to its parent instead. Additionally, the audio/VSTi track has Parent Send disabled, with an explicit Send to another audio track that has the volume automation.

The most straight-forward approach, with or without the Synth Rack Folder, would be to have the VSTi, MIDI item(s) and automation all on the same track.

The source project is in SONAR Platinum.

The above is the same for multiple VSTi; 2 instances of SampleTank 3 and 2 instances of Rap Pro.

There are other oddities, but I thought I would start with just one.

If it will help, I can copy the project and reduce to a single VSTi with no other tracks in SONAR, then convert/load into Reaper and provide both project files to you.
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Old 03-09-2018, 11:19 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobF View Post
The project functions 100% upon opening. However ...
The converted project structure is more complicated than it needs to be. I've read the thread at your site, but I'm still not certain if these side effects are intended. If they are, I'm still happy. If not, then maybe your conversion routine can be simplified.
The following "side effects" are intended. Some parts can be simplified... but only from your perspective. For converter side, I have to write quite complicated "project simplification" functions for that

But let me explain in details:
Quote:
Here's the scenario:
In SONAR I have a standard Instrument Track; separate MIDI & audio/VSTi tracks. The audio/VSTi track has a volume automation envelope.
If I understand your correctly, you sometimes use Instrument Tracks and sometimes separate MIDI/synth track. Right?

Quote:
The resulting Reaper project has a Synth Rack folder that contains the audio/VSTi track, which is also a folder that contains the MIDI track. This MIDI track has Parent Send disabled, and an explicit send to its parent instead. Additionally, the audio/VSTi track has Parent Send disabled, with an explicit Send to another audio track that has the volume automation.
In Sonar you always have the Synth Rack. It is not a part of the track view, but it is there. In most cases it is a "separate thing", Synth is not a part of any FX chain, not even when "Instrument" tracks are used (an exception I will mention later).

That separation influence the signal routing, it is not just a "visual effect" (like track folders).

Think about multiple MIDI tracks routed to one synth which in turn is routed to several Synth tracks (multi-out synth).

Reaper has no separate Synth Rack. But I have to map all variations of the signal flow, that means I need a replacement, separated from MIDI and Synth (outputs) tracks. In Reaper everything is a track. So I have made a track called "Synth Rack", just as a placeholder (without signal routing at all).

I agree that in particular setups (f.e. one synth, one MIDI input and one output), the structure can be "optimized away". But that requires the optimization procedure which do that (for each particular case). I hope you can understand now why the "simplification" of the project structure means complication for the converter.

Reaper default behavior is to bind the signal flow to the project structure. If you put a track into a folder, its output is set to this folder. Converter in general follow that idea, putting tracks/buses into output buses/AUX tracks.

But Sonar users can be unhappy with that "big tree" result, especially if they was working in "flat" framework before. Also in Sonar the position of a strip was never influencing the signal flow. Such users may want to revert the project structure into flat or just move tracks around for mixing convenience. With default Reaper approach, they will immediately hit a problem: the signal flow will be changed after moving tracks.
So I have decided to stay in "two worlds", creating Reaper like structure but making all routing explicitly fixed. So moving tracks around is not influencing the signal flow (as in Sonar).

That allows you f.e. move MIDI tracks from synth to the corresponding bus/folder/sub-folder near synth output track by just dragging it into correct place. A big project structure can be completely reorganized in a minute, for particular taste. And the project will still sound correctly.

Quote:
The most straight-forward approach, with or without the Synth Rack Folder, would be to have the VSTi, MIDI item(s) and automation all on the same track.
About the "exception" I have mentioned before. Sonar in fact almost support the "straight-forward" approach, but it was not thought for Synthes and rarely used with them. To support MIDI input for FXes, Sonar support putting them into FX bin but allowing them to be "a synth". Technically speaking such FXes are Synth. Unlike pure synth, they use input audio in addition to input MIDI. But technically VST have audio input, even in case they are synth pure. Some plug-ins have such duality, they can generate sound from MIDI but also can use input audio.

Such case is special in Sonar. Such "Synth" is still shown in the Synth rack, but it can not have separate synth output track(s).

And I convert such synth use case specially, by putting it into the original track, where it was in Sonar (but not into synth rack), and putting corresponding MIDI track(s) in the near.

I mean "straight-forward" case in Sonar is converted as "straight-forward". But it is important to understand that this case is different from usual Sonar Synth processing.

Quote:
There are other oddities, but I thought I would start with just one.
If there are real oddities, I will try to eliminate them. Or explain why they are there. So please do not hesitate to ask.
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Old 03-09-2018, 11:32 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
If I understand your correctly, you sometimes use Instrument Tracks and sometimes separate MIDI/synth track. Right?
No. I NEVER used Simple Instrument Tracks in SONAR because Inst Tracks get hidden in the console if you choose to hide MIDI tracks.

The other oddity is with a SONAR project that has its OUT routed to another bus, that is then routed to hardware OUTs

I do this so that the other bus can contain monitoring FX and serve as a project monitoring volume control.

The end result is that the final bus becomes a folder in Reaper that contains everything that is not in the Synth Rack folder.

All of this can be untangled, so for the purpose of getting a project from SONAR to Reaper, I think your tool is great as is.

Thanks again
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Old 03-09-2018, 12:56 PM   #88
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No. I NEVER used Simple Instrument Tracks in SONAR because Inst Tracks get hidden in the console if you choose to hide MIDI tracks.
But in this case in Sonar you always have:
* MIDI track
* Synth output track
* Synth in the Synth Rack
I mean for you the number of "things" does not change after the conversion (just the position).

Quote:
The other oddity is with a SONAR project that has its OUT routed to another bus, that is then routed to hardware OUTs

I do this so that the other bus can contain monitoring FX and serve as a project monitoring volume control.

The end result is that the final bus becomes a folder in Reaper that contains everything that is not in the Synth Rack folder.
Yes, I also have almost the whole projects inside the "Master bus". But that is how the signal is routed in the project, so I do not see that as "odd". While I could optimize "Master bus" into Reaper "Master", I (and I guess other) sometimes have the second bus "Headphones", with extra FXes and different hardware output. And in this case the optimization will not work.

Quote:
All of this can be untangled, so for the purpose of getting a project from SONAR to Reaper, I think your tool is great as is.
Thanks again
There are still several big things which are not converted:
We (I and Cool) currently try to convert ProChannel EQ into ReaEQ (DAW project conversion by itself is a "new area", but converting one plug-in into another preserving the sound is yet another "new area")
Comping/take lanes and archived tracks are pending.
MIDI track properties (channel, bank, patch).
May be Sonar folders... I still have not decided, but for some projects that can be handy.
Not sure I proceed with Drum maps, so far there was no such request.
Looped audio is not properly converted when there are tempo changes (but also no explicit requests to fix).

Once/when/if all that is done, if there is still some interest, I will write some "optimizations".
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Old 03-09-2018, 01:49 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
There are still several big things which are not converted:
We (I and Cool) currently try to convert ProChannel EQ into ReaEQ (DAW project conversion by itself is a "new area", but converting one plug-in into another preserving the sound is yet another "new area")
Comping/take lanes and archived tracks are pending.
MIDI track properties (channel, bank, patch).
May be Sonar folders... I still have not decided, but for some projects that can be handy.
This is...astounding in its ambition. The ProChannel EQ doesn't even resemble the ReaEQ, does it?

I don't think you're (you, Cool, whoever else) getting enough credit for this, especially over on the Sonar forum. When in the history of DAWs have you been able to convert a complicated, full-blooded project from one format to another, preserving everything a user could reasonably hope? If it exists I've never come across it. I see this as a very unique opportunity to preserve or resurrect projects from a doomed (personal opinion, recent developments don't change the feeling) piece of software. I think you've created a real opportunity for people here.
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Old 03-09-2018, 03:26 PM   #90
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This is...astounding in its ambition. The ProChannel EQ doesn't even resemble the ReaEQ, does it?
These EQs are different. But for Bells things look promising. Current version does the conversion already, we work to improve the quality (so that the sound is the same, which is much more challenging then just make the same parameter values).

Quote:
When in the history of DAWs have you been able to convert a complicated, full-blooded project from one format to another, preserving everything a user could reasonably hope? If it exists I've never come across it.
Yes, till someone has an example, that is the first complex DAW projects converter ever made
It may be not so important between each DAWs it does the conversion, but important is the fact such conversion is possible. Who knows, may be that precedent can motivate DAW producers to finally allow users to exchange not only WAVs/MIDI and sometime containers like OMF, but also FX chains, complete automations and other common information. At least they no longer can claim "such converters do not exist, that is impossible" when users asks for the feature.
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:12 AM   #91
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We (I and Cool, without him that could not happened...) have tuned parameters of ReaEQ as far as we could to match QuadEQ.
Only one QuadEQ mode (Hybrid) is covered and there are some limits (see docs), but that is an attempt to:
replace one plug-in with another, matching resulting sound
I see it as TDR for more wide use case: imagine when you replace an EQ/Comp in FX chain with another EQ/Comp, this new plug-in is automatically set to match the previous one...

It will be interesting to know what other think how successful we are
Alpha 3 is uploaded.
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Old 03-19-2018, 08:37 PM   #92
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Thanks for the latest update!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 05-04-2018, 12:12 PM   #93
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Thanks so much for this! I'm exploring some old Sonar 8.5 projects and it's great to be able to do so!
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Old 05-12-2018, 09:09 AM   #94
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Hello!

Thanks ! I try, it's perfect !
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Old 06-29-2018, 12:15 PM   #95
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Hi azslow3,

Thousands of thanks for developing this great tool and sharing it with us here! :-D
I have Sonar 4 and 7 installed here - if you like I could do some tests/debugging against these versions, just let me know.
Anyway, keep up that cool work on this tool :-)

cheers
Chris
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:01 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhaze View Post
Wow man, awesome stuff !
This can draw alot (more?) ex Sonar users to Reaper
did you mean [S]ex Bonar users?
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:06 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris74 View Post
Hi azslow3,

Thousands of thanks for developing this great tool and sharing it with us here! :-D
I have Sonar 4 and 7 installed here - if you like I could do some tests/debugging against these versions, just let me know.
Anyway, keep up that cool work on this tool :-)

cheers
Chris
I am glad you have found the plug-in useful. Thanks!

I think reasonable way to covert very old projects is to re-save them using Cakewalk by Bandlab.

If something does not work as expected, I can only investigate under X1...CbB since I do not have older version. I can try to guess and that has worked for many elements, but not for all.
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Old 07-01-2018, 04:33 AM   #98
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It seems Reaper has randomly problems here with loading the converted projects.
This only happened yet in Reaper x86, the x64 version loads the project without problems (okay, some DX plugins are missing then, but that's a different story).

Here's the entry from Windows event log:

Name der fehlerhaften Anwendung: reaper.exe, Version: 5.9.2.0, Zeitstempel: 0x5b2adf3b
Name des fehlerhaften Moduls: Battery 3.dll, Version: 3.2.3.637, Zeitstempel: 0x4e4b9f8f
Ausnahmecode: 0xc0000005
Fehleroffset: 0x0060f836
ID des fehlerhaften Prozesses: 0x244c
Startzeit der fehlerhaften Anwendung: 0x01d40fe59fb5999f
Pfad der fehlerhaften Anwendung: D:\audio\REAPER\reaper.exe
Pfad des fehlerhaften Moduls: d:\audio\steinberg\vstplugins\Battery 3.dll
Berichtskennung: 385de9ee-3757-4b92-bc94-17815894b3f8
Vollständiger Name des fehlerhaften Pakets:
Anwendungs-ID, die relativ zum fehlerhaften Paket ist:

I first though that this crash is connected to Battery 3 as it is listed in the event log but it seems that this is in fact the last correctly scanned plugin. It seems like the real cause of the crash doesn't get it through to the event log at all.

All I have in addition is a screen shot: https://ibb.co/d97vCJ
While taking this screenshot I have renamed the Battery DLL, normaly it is not displayed as not available.
Sometime there are multiple error-windows from MSVC runtime.

This only happens with the x86 version of reaper here but also with older releases. I tried with 5.80 and it also crashes.

The original project file was from Sonar 7 x86.

OS is Windows 10 Pro x64, version 1709, build 16299.492

Please let me know what I can do to hunt the bug or provide more informations.

Thanks.
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Old 07-01-2018, 07:51 AM   #99
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Crashes after converter in general can be produced by (sorted by likelihood):
1) crashes in plug-ins, there are 2 cases:
1.a) plug-in is in general unstable in REAPER. It is known that some old DX plug-ins (f.e. Sonitus compressor) are crash prone, from experience sometimes 32/64 bit dependent
1.b) I incorrectly convert plug-in preset and that course the crash (can be for any plug-in)
2) I incorrectly convert some general structure and that produce troubles in REAPER.


For 1 (a and b) please try to localize the plug-in(s).
If you can not get project loaded at all (it crashes once the conversion is finished, in 32 and 64 REAPER), install "portable" REAPER, without specifying VST pathes. Also in "Plug-ins, Rewire/DX" unset "Enable DX plug-ins".
In case REAPER still crash, that is (2). Send me original CWP (see later) and I will take care.

Once you can save converted RPP, you can start lengthy (sorry) procedure to identify the problem. By removing plug-ins from the project and loading in REAPER version which originally crash, till it stop crashing.

Once the plug-in is identified:
* if you can not instantiate the plug-in in REAPER at all, also in not converted project, that is (1.a) for sure.
* if in some REAPER plug-in works, but stably crash after conversion, that is probably (1.b)
* if plug-in loads in converted project, but with incorrect preset (may be crashing later), that can be (1.b)
* if plug-in loads in converted project, with correct preset, but crash later, that is probably 1.a

Then:
* for 1.a cases, you will need to avoid the plug-in in reaper. "Options/Show REAPER resource path...", edit (in text editor) reaper-dxplugins.ini and set "Load=0" for the plug-in (DX). Bad VSTs you can simply remote from REAPER VST path (also possible to disable in corresponding ini)
* for 1.b and 2, please upload the project in question, with observation and the link, in PM. Please upload CWP file only (no audio) to some "safe" place. Note that if you publish the link here in the forum, EVERYONE can download it (probably not what you want, till that is a test project). For all plug-ins I do not have (majority) I will ask you to create special projects, one in Sonar and one in REAPER, each with plug-in on one track with exactly the same preset selected. But many plug-ins have demo versions, so I will be able to do everything myself. So I will ask explicitly when that is required.
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