Old 09-10-2011, 09:05 PM   #1
Badmotor
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Default Saffire 6 latency

Hi all

I am using a Focusrite Saffire 6 USB with Reaper for the purpose of (among the usual stuff) recording guitars direct using amp sims. I monitor from the software so I can see how it sounds as I record, and there is a slight delay detectable. I have also noticed some popping and clicking on my recorded tracks ( ). As far as I know, I have the buffer settings on the lowest I can go (see pic) and am getting some popping - but am only getting 7ms/10ms. After hanging out here for a while I can see people generally can get lower input latency that I get so now I am worried that my interface isn't going to do the job.

I have the most up-to-date driver (1.9) from Focusrite. Is there anything I am missing here? Can I get better performance?
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Old 09-10-2011, 09:42 PM   #2
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I never really undetstood this stuff so dont know If I can be much help.

However...Your Focusrite settings differ from mine only in that mine are set to a sample size of 134 and a sample rate of 44100. This give me the exact same latency readings as you have....but I have no issues at all. It WORKS beuatifully. So you could try matching my settings for the hell of it.
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:36 AM   #3
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That didn't seem to help. Hhmmm... I wonder if it has anything to do with it being USB 1.1?
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:03 AM   #4
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Probably not. What is your computer specs/OS/REAPER version (especially 32 or 64-bit)? Did you ever run the DPC latency checker ?
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:10 AM   #5
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Intel(R) core i5 cpu
4GB RAM
32 bit - Windows 7
Reaper version 3.651

I haven't run any latency checker.
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Old 09-11-2011, 03:18 AM   #6
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Latency check attached.
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:44 AM   #7
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BM you have a faster lappy with more memory than mine and yet I can run my saffire 6 down to 64 no problem. What happens if you take the slider fully to the left?

Oh and on 48 vs 44.1 since you will be masterin gto cd at 44.1 there really isn`t THAT much of a need for the little bit of extra headroom vs. the time etc to convert at mixdown.
Easier to go with 44.1 24bit at the lowest latency you an get away with, which shoul dbe less than you are seeing.
Bear in mind your actual round-trip latency is actually more than this.
I just judge it by my ears and the classic "can I play along with that much latency" test" (grin)
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:58 PM   #8
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That's weird. I have mostly the same setup, a Saffire 6 on Windows 7 (except I'm on 64-bit desktop), and I haven't had any troubles with it. On very rare occasion, the device will get kind of glitchy and distorted, and I'll have to unplug it and plug it back in to fix it, but that's extremely rare. Have you tried "rebooting" it like that?

Also, is this a brand new device? Is it possible you brought a defective one and need to take it back?
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:31 PM   #9
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I'm actually on a desktop. I've tried changing to 44.1 and that didn't seem to change anything - If I move the slider one more position to the left, it is all over... it struggles to even play back, and if it does it is a slow motion distorted mess.

I guess I've had the Saffire for about 8 months, but I haven't done any real 'serious' recording until now, and hadn't looked at the setup properly.

I don't understand why people on lesser systems are getting lower latency than me.

I just found this... I wonder if the USB bus is my problem When I follow the instructions to check if it is on a root bus, it doesn't tell me. I have a different layout to what they have.

http://www.focusrite.com/answerbase/...le.php?id=1127
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:46 PM   #10
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So did you read and follow this link on the same page?

http://www.focusrite.com/answerbase/...le.php?id=1128

I suspect you could be right about it being a non-root hub connection causing the problem, but the folks to ask are Focusrite, not us Reaperites.

We can only help so far but this certainly seems like a hardware conflict between your PC and the Saffire 6.
FWIW you are the first person I have encountered who has a problem with the Saffire 6 although to be honest most of us are running them with laptops.

There IS a solution out there, so good luck mate & let us know what was causing the conflict once you find it.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:53 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
So did you read and follow this link on the same page?

http://www.focusrite.com/answerbase/...le.php?id=1128

I suspect you could be right about it being a non-root hub connection causing the problem, but the folks to ask are Focusrite, not us Reaperites.

We can only help so far but this certainly seems like a hardware conflict between your PC and the Saffire 6.
FWIW you are the first person I have encountered who has a problem with the Saffire 6 although to be honest most of us are running them with laptops.

There IS a solution out there, so good luck mate & let us know what was causing the conflict once you find it.
Yeah I read that - gonna send them an email. Thanks for your help guys - loving this forum.

Urgh... just my luck though.
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:21 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badmotor View Post
Hi all

I am using a Focusrite Saffire 6 USB with Reaper for the purpose of (among the usual stuff) recording guitars direct using amp sims. I monitor from the software so I can see how it sounds as I record, and there is a slight delay detectable. I have also noticed some popping and clicking on my recorded tracks ( ). As far as I know, I have the buffer settings on the lowest I can go (see pic) and am getting some popping - but am only getting 7ms/10ms. After hanging out here for a while I can see people generally can get lower input latency that I get so now I am worried that my interface isn't going to do the job.

I have the most up-to-date driver (1.9) from Focusrite. Is there anything I am missing here? Can I get better performance?
Not that the Focusrite units are bad...
But they don't deliver the lowest possible round-trip latency.
Typically use a larger hidden safety buffer... (which increases round-trip latency)
Other than doubling the sample-rate (which increases the load), there's not much you can do to mitigate the problem.

If you're wanting to play/monitor in realtime thru AmpSim plugins, you'd be better off with a different unit. Any of the RME units are great, the M-Audio FastTrack Ultra and Ultra 8R are good (if you don't use the latest driver), MOTU units are good, as is the Steinberg MR816 if you use the 32-sample ASIO buffer size. With a fast well-configured i7 based DAW, you can sustain substantial loads at that 32-sample ASIO buffer size.
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Old 09-12-2011, 01:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Roseberry View Post
Not that the Focusrite units are bad...
But they don't deliver the lowest possible round-trip latency.
Typically use a larger hidden safety buffer... (which increases round-trip latency)
Other than doubling the sample-rate (which increases the load), there's not much you can do to mitigate the problem.

If you're wanting to play/monitor in realtime thru AmpSim plugins, you'd be better off with a different unit. Any of the RME units are great, the M-Audio FastTrack Ultra and Ultra 8R are good (if you don't use the latest driver), MOTU units are good, as is the Steinberg MR816 if you use the 32-sample ASIO buffer size. With a fast well-configured i7 based DAW, you can sustain substantial loads at that 32-sample ASIO buffer size.
Cheers. After all this, I'm thinking about getting something else more appropriate to be honest. I'll have to check those out - as long as I'm not downgrading in the preamp and A/D conversion department from the Saffire, I'll be happy. Not sure if I'll be able to afford the RME stuff, but we'll see.
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Old 09-12-2011, 02:42 PM   #14
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Surely that device supports direct monitoring? At least according to this it does. This could be your answer:

http://www.uniquesquared.com/eBayImg...erGuide-EN.pdf
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Old 09-12-2011, 03:36 PM   #15
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I had something similar to this the other day and after I hit every button and changed every setting on the soundcard I could find - I found a left over instance of Ozone on the master bus. errm...
Not that I understand too much of this, but I guess some VSTs (with look ahead functionality) need to buffer some time before they work, leaving you with the delay. So, in the future I'll make sure to switch off all effects as soon as I encounter something like this.

Sorry for the wall of text, maybe it helped someone.

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Old 09-12-2011, 05:59 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholas View Post
Surely that device supports direct monitoring? At least according to this it does. This could be your answer:

http://www.uniquesquared.com/eBayImg...erGuide-EN.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badmotor View Post
...recording guitars direct using amp sims. I monitor from the software so I can see how it sounds as I record...
direct monitoring doesn't really help what I'm trying to do here.
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:07 AM   #17
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Jim - for once in my life, my experience doesnt jive with yours.

Saffire6 on my humble Intel 2-core 1.6 laptop with 2 gig handles 32 buffer size no problems and regardless of the numbers involved, I have little or no latency in terms of making it difficult to play guitar in.
FWIW I have been using the standalone and vst versions of Pod Farm2 and Waves GTR Solo via the saffire6 and monitoring the actual affected sound, still at perfectly acceptable levels of latency.
In firness the biggest project I have recorded like this so far was only five tracks, but included EZdrummer and Kontakt as well as the guitar amp sims and a few processing vsts.
This is on a very clean install of W7 Pro 64bit.

Since I only use this as a mobile rig and it is all packed away, I can't easily quote you numbers for round trip, but like I say my perception is that there is nowhere near an unacceptable level of latency & I m pretty timing sensitive.
Bear in mind I am used to a fast 6 core with 8gb of ram running off fast SATA3 drives on the main computer. (grin) Reaper somewhat optimistically reports a one-way latency of 0.70ms for that one
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:29 AM   #18
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Frustratingly, I've only come across one other person on forums that has had the same trouble as me. Ah well, that is the nature of computer hardware. You never know until you plug it all in together.
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:40 AM   #19
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I have to agree with Ivanc. I have no complaints about the focusrite and I would like to know where you get this info from Jim....I did lots of reseach before I bought the USB 6 and it came out with flying colours.

I can also recommend their support....which is a lot more than can be said for the people at M audio.

I can not detect any latency when running it with Amplitube and Guitar Rig and Addictive drums all at once and also be running samples through another track.

My Experience is like Ivansc and so I cant see how your statement can be true. I suspect that the OP's problem is either a pc problem or he has a faulty unit.
The problem is not the USB 6 per se.
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Old 09-13-2011, 03:03 AM   #20
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Yeah, if you guys read the links posted earlier - there is a known issue with USB 1.1 devices and Intel core i-series (i3, i5, i7) machines running Windows 7 which prevents them from using a buffer size smaller than 3ms, therefore reaching a low latency.

I'm pretty sure this is my problem. Looks like they discovered this last year: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4335114

If I had an older machine, I'd probably be fine. Just talking to support - don't really see what they can do though, if it can't be fixed by an updated driver. I might have to ditch the Saffire if this is the case.
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Old 09-13-2011, 07:39 AM   #21
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I`ve been waiting to say this for quite some time....

SERVES YOU RIGHT for buying that Intel rubbish


(laughing my skinny white ass off. Finally)

Always assuming it really is an Intel i series vs the saffire6 issue.

Seriously, be interested to har more on this as I suspect my next build will include Intel components.
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Old 09-13-2011, 11:46 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
I`ve been waiting to say this for quite some time....

SERVES YOU RIGHT for buying that Intel rubbish


(laughing my skinny white ass off. Finally)

Always assuming it really is an Intel i series vs the saffire6 issue.

Seriously, be interested to har more on this as I suspect my next build will include Intel components.
Ha ha
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:13 PM   #23
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OK...

just in case anyone wanted to know the outcome of this issue - after 10 days of support emails, I am indeed having the USB 1.1 problem and (as I already knew) this is the solution:

- Try connecting via a USB 2.0 hub as this can change the way the 6 USB connects to the computer and can mean it doesn't connect via a generic USB hub (this didn't work - it still connected as a Generic hub for me)

- Add a PCI or PCIe USB 2.0 card to your system as this too can prevent the 6 USB connecting via a generic USB hub (I am reluctant to do this as my PC is fairly new with plenty of ports and still under warranty. Plus, there is no guarantee that it will work).
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:29 AM   #24
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the M-Audio FastTrack Ultra and Ultra 8R are good (if you don't use the latest driver)
Hi Jim, whats the deal with the latest drivers ?
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Old 06-10-2012, 05:35 AM   #25
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I have to agree with Ivanc. I have no complaints about the focusrite and I would like to know where you get this info from Jim....I did lots of reseach before I bought the USB 6 and it came out with flying colours.

I can also recommend their support....which is a lot more than can be said for the people at M audio.

I can not detect any latency when running it with Amplitube and Guitar Rig and Addictive drums all at once and also be running samples through another track.

My Experience is like Ivansc and so I cant see how your statement can be true. I suspect that the OP's problem is either a pc problem or he has a faulty unit.
The problem is not the USB 6 per se.
The saffire 6 kicks ass. USB 1 provides more than sufficient bandwidth for the unit's maximum I/O capabilities. 2in/4out max throughput.

It's a fantastic unit. I do use it on a desktop and have never had an issue. I have been using it since 10/2010.

Just had to add to this dead thread.
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:00 PM   #26
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Well it would appear I was right. I am now having issues getting decent performance from an i5 2.8 processor on my new laptop, where the old dual core was stellar!


What a pain in the butt....

I am back to France next week so will have time to explore possibilities.
Also I am on Windoze 8 on the new lappy, which may also be a factor.

I can't run anything much reliably under 128 whereas before on the old machine I was stale as hell at 64 and often, on smaller projects, at 32.
Go figure.....
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Old 06-29-2013, 01:10 AM   #27
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The saffire USB is one of the worst interfaces latency wise.

Are you sure that:

1) The others who have low latency don't run it in 96Khz?

2) That they don't have a firewire version. The firewire versions have extremely fast drivers beating even the RME stuff if I recall correctly.
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Old 07-07-2013, 07:39 AM   #28
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A final word from me on this.
Like I said earlier, I was having zero trouble running at 64 buffers on my old core duo lappy, but when I changed to an i5 it all went very pear shaped and still is.

The Intel i-series cpus seem especially sensitive to being asked to work with either win7 or win8 and a USB or USB1.1 device.
Confirmed by focusrite.
I am now facing replacing my perfectly good Saffire6 with an alternative.
A USB2 alternative.
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:27 PM   #29
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I bought my Saffire 6 from a friend who had trouble on his windows 7 machine, it's been rock solid here on XP with good latency performance but I will also be looking to change to a USB 2 interface when I upgrade my pc later in the year.

Ivan, I hear the Focusrite Scarlett series work very well and offer similar or better performance than the old '6', might be worth a look if you're after a similar 2 in-4 out kinda deal.
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:55 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by force_redo View Post
I had something similar to this the other day and after I hit every button and changed every setting on the soundcard I could find - I found a left over instance of Ozone on the master bus. errm...
Not that I understand too much of this, but I guess some VSTs (with look ahead functionality) need to buffer some time before they work, leaving you with the delay. So, in the future I'll make sure to switch off all effects as soon as I encounter something like this.

Sorry for the wall of text, maybe it helped someone.

FR
I know this is a SUPER old thread but I have been tearing my hair out ALL NIGHT over this and your comment absolutely fixed it. I had Ozone on my master bus. Who knows WHY that adds latency...but there we are!! Thank you so much!!!!!!!
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:18 AM   #31
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Just re-read this thread in its entirety & recalled the nightmares I had with focusrite back then. Glad they seem to have finally got their shit together on this, but way too late for me.
Actually, I am glad - forced me into buying a used Babyface which performs superbly.

But it DID cost a lot more than the saffire6...
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