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08-16-2018, 07:42 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Vocal Harmonies ...... How can I learn them .. see video link in this post ....
I am an amatur singer. I have background music that I sing to.
A freind of mine turned me on to this young guy named Jacob Collier who is an expert in harmonies and has created the following video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zua8...&start_radio=1
here is another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K28H...=RDzua831utwMM
In addition to just singing, I too have the ability to video myself and that has been my intent all along with my music. But, I just LOVE what this guy has done in these videos and would like to use his model for mine.
My issue is that I don't know how to read music. How I learn songs that I have never sung before is listen over and over again to the guide vocal that comes with each song that I download until it is burned in my brain and I can do it on my own after singing it 1,000 times!
The songs I get also come with background singers, but, they are all bundled into one single track. What I want to know is if anybody has any ideas how I can for the lack of a better term,'tear up' those backup singers tracks in order to discover each individual harmony part?
What I do not want to do is have a synthesizer create the harmonies for me. I want to actually be singing them myself.
Now, the kinds of songs I am singing are from people like:
-Barbra Streisand
-Bette Middler
-Frank Sinatra
-Karen Souza
-Phil Collins
-Christopher Cross
-Josh Groban
etc., etc., etc ........
Ideas?
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
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08-16-2018, 08:55 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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You will have to learn a bit of music theory. You don't necessarily have to learn to read notation, but you will have to get a basic grasp on intervals and chords. A cheap midi keyboard controller might help with this, as it's tough to sing chords by yourself!
You could try and solve this with technology and buy Melodyne 4 Editor to separate the vocal parts, but this is an expensive solution.
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08-16-2018, 09:37 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Somewhere PRO
Posts: 1,049
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You can do this with any keyboard... but it's a long road to achieve the mastery of the singer's you listed.
Start by playing C major on the keys, and trying to sing each interval (C to D, C to E etc)... then it becomes a long slug to learn these intervals without having a keyboard present.
Back in the day, I used to use certain songs for reference, ie Jaws is a minor 2nd, Star Wars is a Perfect 5th etc etc, which helped a lot with memorizing and internalizing these sounds.
__________________
"REAPER... You're simply the best" - Tina Turner
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08-16-2018, 10:17 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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I think Jason Collier (who is great) is like starting at the most complex point possible. The place to start is to learn intervals and simple diatonic chord/note structure in general. I think one of the greatest resources to learn intervals is to find songs (that you are already familiar with) that contain known intervals, that's how I initially learned them:
https://www.scales-chords.com/articl...Intervals.html
That's a start but there may be better resources, I still remember when I was practicing learning intervals..
Some-where over the rainbow (octave)
Here Comes the Bride (perfect 4th), Here Comes the Bride (perfect 5th)
Once you have intervals tied to songs you already know, you will progress much faster and... out of nowhere you'll start hearing them everywhere.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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08-16-2018, 10:21 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I think Jason Collier (who is great) is like starting at the most complex point possible.
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I did think the same thing!
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08-18-2018, 12:30 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3,201
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A few quick and common intervals for vocal harmonies:
+7 semitones
-5 semitones
-3 semitones
+3 (or 4) semitones
These are just a few intervals to try out if you want to experiment. It's very rare that a single interval will work throughout a song; usually it will change every few notes. Try going slow, concentrating on what interval works for a single note, before finding what works for the next note.
Which of these will work depends on what part of the scale the main melody is at and what chord the accompaniment is currently using. It is a bit of a moving target, since (interesting) music changes both chords and melody notes frequently. But nothing I can tell you here will make sense until you learn some basic chord and harmony theory. So this is a recipe to experiment with...
To get started with it in Reaper, duplicate a vocal track, select the item on the duplicate track, and use the E key to add the Reapitch plugin to the item. Then split the copy item each place the pitch changes. Now each note has a separate copy of Reapitch. Now you can go into each note and play with how many semitones you want to shift it up or down. Again, *do just one note at a time* until your ears learn what intervals sound good. Be patient. It takes time. If it was easy everyone would do it.
Last edited by Philbo King; 08-18-2018 at 12:40 AM.
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08-18-2018, 07:46 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Pretty much what everybody here is saying. However there are two things that can't be stressed enough. "Ear Training" and "Breath Control".
Ear Training: A must and is pretty much covered in the posts above. It just requires a lot of practice.
Unless you already know about breath control, then voice lessons is very advisable.
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08-18-2018, 09:09 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian
it's a long road to achieve the mastery of the singer's you listed.
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I'm not trying to! I only mention them so that you all know the 'style' of music I like to sing.
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
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08-18-2018, 09:40 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I think Jason Collier (who is great) is like starting at the most complex point possible.
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I guess I need to be more clear here too! I am NOT trying to duplicate Jacob! I never meant to express that I want to sing at his level of skill!
More to the point, it was the 'concept' of recording myself (or other family and friends) singing just screwing around and having a good time and putting our faces on the screen at the same time.
It was more the visual vs. the audio that really interests me here .....
I have VideoPad from NCH software that I have had for a long time that has the feature of multiple videos on the screen at the same time the same way that Jacob has in his.
I am also not trying and never will try to be a professional singer at all, just using the available technology to make my own music videos (I have a webcam and software for videos) and experiment with different concepts for the sole purpose of having a little fun.
When I was talking about learning harmonies, I guess what I meant to say is, lets say I am listening to the radio to a song that there are several people singing their parts and I like the song enough that I would like to 'start' to try to learn each harmony part (I said 'start') so that once I have had the time to learn and practice each part, however long that might take, I could then begin to record them in whatever way I decide to record them, either video or strictly audio or both!
The end result will not be my trying to sound like someone else but to make each song I sing m y own and in my own style and skill level!
More often than not, I am talking only about an audio 'effect' that sounds cool.......
I hope this helps clarify what I was originally trying to express here.......
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
Last edited by sjs94704; 08-18-2018 at 10:18 PM.
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08-18-2018, 10:07 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King
A few quick and common intervals for vocal harmonies:
+7 semitones
-5 semitones
-3 semitones
+3 (or 4) semitones
These are just a few intervals to try out if you want to experiment. It's very rare that a single interval will work throughout a song; usually it will change every few notes. Try going slow, concentrating on what interval works for a single note, before finding what works for the next note.
Which of these will work depends on what part of the scale the main melody is at and what chord the accompaniment is currently using. It is a bit of a moving target, since (interesting) music changes both chords and melody notes frequently. But nothing I can tell you here will make sense until you learn some basic chord and harmony theory. So this is a recipe to experiment with...
To get started with it in Reaper, duplicate a vocal track, select the item on the duplicate track, and use the E key to add the Reapitch plugin to the item. Then split the copy item each place the pitch changes. Now each note has a separate copy of Reapitch. Now you can go into each note and play with how many semitones you want to shift it up or down. Again, *do just one note at a time* until your ears learn what intervals sound good. Be patient. It takes time. If it was easy everyone would do it.
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Thanks ! I got a lot out of what you said here!
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
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08-19-2018, 02:04 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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thirds and fifths are relatively easy to "find" and sing, plus a huge majority of the tunes you hear with vocal harmonies utilise them
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Ici on parles Franglais
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08-19-2018, 02:37 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc
thirds and fifths are relatively easy to "find" and sing, plus a huge majority of the tunes you hear with vocal harmonies utilise them
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Yeah, I think that learning the difference between major and minor thirds is probably the most important part of music theory to grasp.
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08-19-2018, 11:57 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3,201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704
Thanks ! I got a lot out of what you said here!
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The thing I forgot to add:
Once you tweak away on all those note pitches, and get a harmony part that works for the whole song, it''s time to learn to sing that part. So:
- Mute the original vocal so you only hear the new harmony part. While listening to that, try to sing it. It helps to loop it, so you can practice it until you've memorized the part.
- Then record it, capturing several takes, and pick the best. This will train both your ears and voice, making you a better musician.
- ReaPeat the whole process for the next harmony track...
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08-22-2018, 09:00 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judders
Yeah, I think that learning the difference between major and minor thirds is probably the most important part of music theory to grasp.
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Apart from for the jammy buggers like me, who just naturally "hear" all the harmonies in their heads.
I am SO grateful for being able to just sing or write harmonies without thinking too much about it.
That and a good ear have saved me from embarrassment on many occasions.
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
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08-22-2018, 10:31 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berkeley, CA USA
Posts: 1,336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King
The thing I forgot to add:
Once you tweak away on all those note pitches, and get a harmony part that works for the whole song, it''s time to learn to sing that part. So:
- Mute the original vocal so you only hear the new harmony part. While listening to that, try to sing it. It helps to loop it, so you can practice it until you've memorized the part.
- Then record it, capturing several takes, and pick the best. This will train both your ears and voice, making you a better musician.
- ReaPeat the whole process for the next harmony track...
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YES! I agree with you! Manufactured harmonies to me are always so obvious. The only time I think I might do that is if I missed some sort of a short phrase somewhere that would end up being too labor intensive to record live. In this case the phrase will go by too quickly for anyone to notice but will be a BIG deal in truly finishing off the song.
__________________
Bayside Studios, Berkeley, CA - Music That Brings People Together
Steven Schuyler, Singer
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08-29-2018, 06:10 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King
A few quick and common intervals for vocal harmonies:
+7 semitones
-5 semitones
-3 semitones
+3 (or 4) semitones
These are just a few intervals to try out if you want to experiment. It's very rare that a single interval will work throughout a song; usually it will change every few notes. Try going slow, concentrating on what interval works for a single note, before finding what works for the next note.
Which of these will work depends on what part of the scale the main melody is at and what chord the accompaniment is currently using. It is a bit of a moving target, since (interesting) music changes both chords and melody notes frequently. But nothing I can tell you here will make sense until you learn some basic chord and harmony theory. So this is a recipe to experiment with...
To get started with it in Reaper, duplicate a vocal track, select the item on the duplicate track, and use the E key to add the Reapitch plugin to the item. Then split the copy item each place the pitch changes. Now each note has a separate copy of Reapitch. Now you can go into each note and play with how many semitones you want to shift it up or down. Again, *do just one note at a time* until your ears learn what intervals sound good. Be patient. It takes time. If it was easy everyone would do it.
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that's a neat way of doing it. I imagine there is some use for ReaTune to help 'locate' the key. from there it should be relatively easy to work out the harmony. for example, if you are in the key of C then you can do a simple harmony line for each note like this (the top line is the melody, the second line the harmony, and the third line is the difference in semi-tones):
C - D - E - F - G - A - B
E - F - G - A - B - C - D
4 - 3 - 3 - 4 - 4 - 3 - 3
Without getting too heavily into music theory, the harmonies are a major third (4 semitones) or a minor third (3 semitones). This applies to any key but obviously the notes are different. therefore you can know that if you're singing an F in the melody, the harmony will be an A.
the only drawback to this is that although the harmonies will sound pleasant, they will quickly become boring. interesting harmonies, even just 2-part harmonies, will have a mixture of different intervals. once you get into the swing of it you will find that it comes naturally - it's hard to explain but you just sing an accompanying part that is higher or lower, but still in key.
at the end of the day, if it sounds good then it is right (not useful advice for a beginner but worth remembering).
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