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Old 08-21-2018, 06:15 AM   #1
vanhaze
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Default Automation Items : still alot to be considerd please !

The introduction of Automation Items was a Hallelujah moment for many, just as for me.
But now, working with them, there are still alot of flaws / inconsistences which makes working with Automation almost undoable for me.

Here we go:
Situation: Media item with an Automation Item underneath it, with same length as Media Item.
a) Trimming edges of the Media Item doesn't trim edges of the Automation Item.
- Not intuitive behaviour imho.
FR: An option to always have trim edges of Media Item affect the underlying Automation Item as well.

b) Seems Grouping functionality is completely not working for Automation Items.
(ie: grouping AI with AI or grouping Media Items with AI's)
FR: Would come in truly handy if Grouping for AI's would work ..

c) Split Actions don't work on Media Item and underlying Automation Item together.
- Not intuitive behaviour imho.
FR: An option to always have Split Actions on Media Item affect the underlying Automation Item as well.

d) Quantize (to Grid) Actions and Snap Actions don't work on Media Item and underlying Automation Item together.
- Not intuitive behaviour imho.
FR: An option to always have these type of Actions on Media Item affecting the underlying Automation Item as well.

The bottom line of all this "issues" is that in Reaper, a Media Item and underlying Automation Item(s) aren't treated as a "whole entity";
So even if you would say that they are "belonging together cause they have same lengths and are visually "stacked", the 2 types of Items are still completely independant ,which creates the above described issues.

Only the Function "move envelope points with media items", when enabled, "ties" the Media Item and AI together and so they will stay together when moved.

Maybe some kind of "global" option that, when turned ON, treats Media Items and
underlying AI(s) of same length as a single "entity", so trim/split/quantize/snap Actions would work on both Media Item and AI(s) together...

I very hope Cockos will have a look at this all.
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:21 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhaze View Post
The bottom line of all this "issues" is that in Reaper, a Media Item and underlying Automation Item(s) aren't treated as a "whole entity";
So even if you would say that they are "belonging together cause they have same lengths and are visually "stacked", the 2 types of Items are still completely independant ,which creates the above described issues.
That's true, they are completely independent and that's by design - they SHOULD be completely independent. That's why you have:

Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhaze View Post
Only the Function "move envelope points with media items", when enabled, "ties" the Media Item and AI together and so they will stay together when moved.
Because in a lot of cases you can totally have AIs that are NOT the same length as the item, and you want to have it that way. My use case is most often like that, in fact.


I do agree with some of other things you mention, that there should be a way to trim or split (smart split) AIs along with media items, but only as a new modifier or action, not as a fix of currently existing actions (that'd break existing workflows).
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:47 AM   #3
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vanhaze. I have written about this too here: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=209999
if you think i should had anything there just say so!
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:57 AM   #4
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Into reply of ED:

they SHOULD be completely independent

That's subjective to one's (your) workflow.
For my workflow, thats a real annoyance.
Because in a lot of cases you can totally have AIs that are NOT the same length as the item, and you want to have it that way. My use case is most often like that, in fact.

Again: subjective to one's (your) workflow.

but only as a new modifier or action, not as a fix of currently existing actions

I didn't mention the word "fix", i mentioned "option"
But an extra mouse mouse modifier will, indeed, do also.
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
vanhaze. I have written about this too here: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=209999
if you think i should had anything there just say so!
Great, thank you !
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Old 08-21-2018, 07:19 AM   #6
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i agree with ED post! " "trim edges" have to stay independent in "general".

i don't mean: split, group, and all the others

edit: you said:

1) Trimming edges of the Media Item doesn't trim edges of the Automation Item.
FR: An option to always have trim edges of Media Item affect the underlying Automation Item as well.

and also:

2) For my workflow, thats a real annoyance.
Because in a lot of cases you can totally have AIs that are NOT the same length as the item, and you want to have it that way. My use case is most often like that, in fact.

I don't quite understand! you think it should be 2) independent or 1) dependent?

you seem you would like independent with an option to make temporarily dependent (which arrives with some issues like: and if edges are slightly off set from each other? ex: how reaper interprets? split or create the extra AI ? maintain edges space and their offset intact?

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Old 08-21-2018, 09:17 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
Because in a lot of cases you can totally have AIs that are NOT the same length as the item, and you want to have it that way. My use case is most often like that, in fact.

I don't quite understand! you think it should be 2) independent or 1) dependent?

you seem you would like independent with an option to make temporarily dependent (which arrives with some issues like: and if edges are slightly off set from each other? ex: how reaper interprets? split or create the extra AI ? maintain edges space and their offset intact?

I like them independent with the current option to move envelope points with media items.

If you use this option along with AIs, you will see that Reaper is smart there and doesn't split AIs if they are longer than the media item you're moving. They follow along. I like that very much - temporary dependancy, as needed. Perhaps somebody might like an option for AIs to split along with the item, I'm not sure how useful that would be but ok.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:37 AM   #8
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oh hey, AIs

since last year's AI testing bonanza, when i made a lot of noise and some goofy bathtub drawings in a desperate attempt to convey a concept, i have been using them extensively. because they are terrific.

they haven't been a dev focus for a while but there's definitely some things left to consider.

Quote:
FR: An option to always have trim edges of Media Item affect the underlying Automation Item as well.
a modifier would probably be better, because i want to do both, often.

Quote:
c) Split Actions don't work on Media Item and underlying Automation Item together.
they do, you just have to select both. it's just a little hard to select AI because you have to lasso the title bar. this is much easier to do when you're displaying AI in the media lane, which is all i ever do if i can help it.

i agree with the spirit of B and D, AI should behave as much like items as possible.

to add to this post with additional issues for consideration:

(1) i really hope to one day be able to drag an AI from one track to another, creating an envelope (and fx instance with envelope enabled) on that 2nd track. meanwhile, getting an AI from one track to another is a multistep process

(2) i also hope to have an option to disable AI's ability to "stack" on the same envelope. i never want this. i understand the function and benefit, but i only ever want 1 AI on the parameter lane at a time. this also has implications when recording passes of envelope data by controller - there's no way to not stack them when you're doing that.
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Old 08-21-2018, 09:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
If you use this option along with AIs, you will see that Reaper is smart there and doesn't split AIs if they are longer than the media item you're moving.
Yep! with moving yes and is useful, but changing item edges to be reflected in AI's under them i am not sure too except if its used as a workaround to copy paste automation, which i don't think it is the purpose of AI.
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:00 AM   #10
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^ regarding moving both AI and item edges at the same time, if both are selected, both edges should be moved -- just like when multiple items are selected. otherwise, they should be independent.

current behavior: if an AI and an item are both selected, and you attempt to move an edge, only the clicked object's edges are moved. desired: both, if both selected.

that should solve both use case requests
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:06 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
^ regarding moving both AI and item edges at the same time, if both are selected, both edges should be moved -- just like when multiple items are selected. otherwise, they should be independent.

current behavior: if an AI and an item are both selected, and you attempt to move an edge, only the clicked object's edges are moved. desired: both, if both selected.

that should solve both use case requests
good ! good heads up! this wasn''t talked so far. It's a different thing. i'll add this one in other request!
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Old 08-21-2018, 10:16 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
a modifier would probably be better, because i want to do both, often.
I am curious if you don't need this exclusively to workaround copying and pasting automation!

Anyway! it would be the way if useful

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post

(2) i also hope to have an option to disable AI's ability to "stack" on the same envelope. i never want this. i understand the function and benefit, but i only ever want 1 AI on the parameter lane at a time. this also has implications when recording passes of envelope data by controller - there's no way to not stack them when you're doing that.
Never thought about this ! and i feel exactly the same. I never want layers it just hassles me!
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Old 08-21-2018, 01:51 PM   #13
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I just want a left click modifier option for AI. I don't know why there isn't one. I can't split them with a left click like I do with media and items
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Old 08-21-2018, 02:12 PM   #14
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If there was an option to always bind Media Items and underlying Automation Items, (or at least make the "Group Items" feature also working for Media Items and AI's), the whole Area Selection discussion wouldn't such a hot topic, even more, wouldnt be problaby exist in the first place.
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Old 08-21-2018, 03:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travesty View Post
I just want a left click modifier option for AI. I don't know why there isn't one. I can't split them with a left click like I do with media and items
i know it's a different workflow than the one you're used to, but i have X key assigned to this action:

snapping: disable snap
split item under mouse cursor
snapping: enable snap
wait .1 seconds before next action
select item under mouse cursor

this allows me to just wave the mouse at items while hitting X, and it works with AI as well. even if they're not selected.
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Old 08-22-2018, 08:01 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
I am curious if you don't need this exclusively to workaround copying and pasting automation!
nah i use it (for example) to apply a lowpass cutoff sweep to a delay, or reverb tail, which extends beyond the item bounds
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Old 08-22-2018, 09:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
nah i use it (for example) to apply a lowpass cutoff sweep to a delay, or reverb tail, which extends beyond the item bounds
ok! i see! thanks. i would guess that the top priority to this related actions we talked in this thread is what you referred by:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
"^ regarding moving both AI and item edges at the same time, if both are selected, both edges should be moved -- just like when multiple items are selected. otherwise, they should be independent.

current behavior: if an AI and an item are both selected, and you attempt to move an edge, only the clicked object's edges are moved. desired: both, if both selected.

that should solve both use case requests"
Since it's the most widely used scenario and gives us more "flexibility". i think.
Do you all agree?
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Old 08-22-2018, 11:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
^ regarding moving both AI and item edges at the same time, if both are selected, both edges should be moved -- just like when multiple items are selected. otherwise, they should be independent.

current behavior: if an AI and an item are both selected, and you attempt to move an edge, only the clicked object's edges are moved. desired: both, if both selected.

that should solve both use case requests
Since it's the most widely used scenario and gives us more "flexibility". i think.
Do you all agree?
Yes! Selected MIs and selected AIs should move together, stretch together, split together, Ctrl+leftdrag "copy selected area within time selection" together, etc, similar to how selected MIs do all of this together.

(As suggested very long ago in the AI pre-release thread and other FRs.)

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Old 08-23-2018, 07:44 AM   #19
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please!
1 )"Selected Media Items and selected AIs and their Edjes should move together"

With this 1 we can have a base to work with ITems and AI more flowly.

Do you all agree this are the most priority thing to fix in this topic? Let's send a message together to devs?



PS: Splitting works here Julian

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Old 08-23-2018, 08:16 AM   #20
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?
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:22 AM   #21
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If we had area selection you could select: just the item, just the AI, both, a portion of the item, a portion of the AI, or a portion of both, in one single mouse movement. No need for any of this clunky "automation follows items" business that creates weird edgepoints etc. Just a single precise surgical tool that works accurately every single time with no corner cases, because it's literally copy and paste in 2018.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:35 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post


?
that is not edges! and you have: "Envelope Points move with media items" checked. Right?

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Old 08-23-2018, 08:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
If we had area selection you could select: just the item, just the AI, both, a portion of the item, a portion of the AI, or a portion of both, in one single mouse movement. No need for any of this clunky "automation follows items" business that creates weird edgepoints etc. Just a single precise surgical tool that works accurately every single time with no corner cases, because it's literally copy and paste in 2018.
Yep! that has been told. Area selection helps AI too. Anyway! what is being referred in this topic is AI editing. And it should be a coherent tool on his own.
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Old 08-23-2018, 08:57 AM   #24
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Quote:
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that is not edges! and you have: "Envelope Points do not move with media items" unchecked. No?
I know, you said "Selected Media Items and selected AIs and their Edjes should move together", I just figured I'd make sure you know media items and selected AIs do move together when you want them to. No biggie.

Ferropop, I agree simple area selection for AIs as well as other items, and also envelopes not encased inside AIs, would be better for many editing moves.

I do enjoy using automation items also for simple operations, though. Like duplicating and copy pasting and whatnot. Like this:



The multi-lane automation items are a no-go for me, so I don't use them, and even if I duplicate something and overlap, it's a clean drop :P (the lanes only showing as a referece of sorts while dragging)



After doing an editing move, most of the time I immediately just print the automation into envelopes. Encasing ^ them in this manner when I want to save them as items or as a part of duplicating-and-so-on moves.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:08 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post
I know, you said "Selected Media Items and selected AIs and their Edjes should move together", I just figured I'd make sure you know media items and selected AIs do move together when you want them to. No biggie.
i see! Thanks! but well! I am dealing with AI, not Envelope Points and i wouldn't like to be dependent of that option as I am dealing with 2 selected items (AI + Item)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post
I do enjoy using automation items also for simple operations, though. Like duplicating and copy pasting and whatnot. Like this:

nice! may i know which actions are you using?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post
The multi-lane automation items are a no-go for me, so I don't use them, and even if I duplicate something and overlap, it's a clean drop :P (the lanes only showing as a referece of sorts while dragging)
me too! but have you done something? or is it a consequence of the actions you used?
Thanks!
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:14 AM   #26
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See the "Automation item selection bundle" by cfillion @ ReaPack. With those actions, you can do this kind of targeted AI stuff ^ better. Then specify actions the way you want to handle editing for the selected items from there. I recommend doing custom "select all" types of shortcuts for item types as well.

The way to "print" the automation back to envelopes is a regular "Envelope: Delete automation items, preserve points."

Gotta go, hope this helped a bit.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
me too! but have you done something? or is it a consequence of the actions you used?
Thanks!
I think it's a regular preference , check out those -- sorry I really need to run, late for an appointment. Laters.
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Old 08-23-2018, 09:24 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post
...
Laters! Thanks a lot! but



damn! LOL i want to copy paste only.

i assume you are using AI's exclusively to copy paste automations, since you always select all AIs and convert all them to Points after doing something. Is this right?

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Old 08-23-2018, 12:37 PM   #28
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i assume you are using AI's exclusively to copy paste automations, since you always select all AIs and convert all them to Points after doing something. Is this right?
No, like I said, I'm encasing the automation in this manner (as AIs) when I want to save the automation as items, or when I want to do duplicating-and-so-on moves. Both are important, the reusability and the editing work. Anyway, as you can get rid of AIs after you have loaded and edited the data, and then very quickly encase the needed envelope sections into AIs again when you need it, I generally don't keep my automation inside AIs just for the heck of it , and I just "print" the automation into continuous envelopes in this manner instead.
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Old 08-23-2018, 01:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post
No, like I said, I'm encasing the automation in this manner (as AIs) when I want to save the automation as items, or when I want to do duplicating-and-so-on moves. Both are important, the reusability and the editing work. Anyway, as you can get rid of AIs after you have loaded and edited the data, and then very quickly encase the needed envelope sections into AIs again when you need it, I generally don't keep my automation inside AIs just for the heck of it , and I just "print" the automation into continuous envelopes in this manner instead.
i shoud be missing something! : ) you seem that you are using something like "convert all automation in timeline selection into AI" and then the opposite to print. I am not finding that action by cfillion.
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Old 08-25-2018, 04:00 AM   #30
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whats great is that its possible to make it perfectly copy paste. Thanks for the pointers
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Old 08-25-2018, 06:18 AM   #31
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whats great is that its possible to make it perfectly copy paste. Thanks for the pointers
i don't know what you talking about! : )
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Old 08-25-2018, 07:13 AM   #32
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Cfillion's stack of AI Actions is pretty topnotch, thank you so much cfillion !

However, beware of this regarding these Actions:

a) "select all automation items":
only selects all AI's on selected Envelope Track.
b) "select all automation items in time selection":
only selects all AI's on selected Envelope Track in Time Selection

Furthermore:

With all these cfiliion AI Actions you still can't do this:

- Let's say you have an media item with underneath it more than 1 envelope track,, "belonging" to the media item.
which have envelopes and/or AI's on them, underneath the media item.
- You select the media item.
- You set time selection around the media item.
- Now you want ALL envelope/AI data from ALL envelope tracks underneath & belonging to the media item, selected, without marqueeing.

Still impossible to do with only 1 Action (Script).
And that is cause Cockos haven't implemented some kind of "select all visible envelope tracks belonging to selected media item"
This is really a Big Miss.

And regarding selecting Envelope Tracks by left mouseclick in TCP:
You can only select 1 envelope track belonging to media item at once.
You can not shift-click on envelope tracks to select muitiple envelope tracks belonging to media item.

Regarding this:
- Select ALL envelope/AI data from ALL envelope tracks underneath & belonging to the media item, selected, without marqueeing.

There is some kind of workaround i discovered yesterday, but this applies only to AI's (not to envelopes).

- Select only Track where media item is on, make sure it's belonging envelope tracks are visible. (or make a selection in these, which ones you wanna have visible).
- invert Track selection
- Make all selected tracks invisible
- you will thus see only the "media item" track, together with its visible envelope tracks.
- set time selection to media item
- execute :cfillion - select all automation items on all tracks in time selection.
- set all invisible tracks to visible again.

Outcome (!!!!!!!!):
All AI'S from ALL visible envelope tracks underneath & belonging to the media item are selected.
So then, copy paste of this is a breeze.
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:06 AM   #33
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bump! @Lunar Ladder could you help find those actions? convert everything to AI or something like that and the reverse
/me auto slaps
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:50 AM   #34
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Envelope: Delete automation items, preserve points
Envelope: Insert automation item


These 2 Actions obey Time Selection.
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Old 08-27-2018, 11:56 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanhaze View Post
Envelope: Delete automation items, preserve points
Envelope: Insert automation item


These 2 Actions obey Time Selection.
thanks again vanhaze!

"Envelope: Insert automation item" <- this as to be 1 by one? The gif seems to apply to all lanes in track
"Envelope: Delete automation items, preserve points" <-- works for all lanes, so it's this one!

Thanks!
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Old 08-27-2018, 12:05 PM   #36
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There are probably more than one way to do it, but I use a custom action:
* SWS/BR: Apply next action to all visible envelopes of all selected tracks
* Insert automation item

Then link it to a left-click or double-click mouse modifier for envelope lane.


EDIT: Beware of these two problems when inserting automation items:
Bug: Automation Items: Drawing new item on top of existing AI: Wrong points collected (Rather use Ctrl+leftdrag to split at time selection.)
Niggle: Inserting automation item deselects all other AIs

Last edited by juliansader; 08-27-2018 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 08-27-2018, 12:05 PM   #37
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"Envelope: Insert automation item" <- this as to be 1 by one? The gif seems to apply to all lanes in track

To my current knowledge, yes indeed: only 1 by 1.
Cause it's impossible to select mutiple envelopes (tracks) at once.
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Old 08-27-2018, 12:06 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
There are probably more than one way to do it, but I use a custom action:
* SWS/BR: Apply next action to all visible envelopes of all selected tracks
* Insert automation item
This a genious !
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Old 08-27-2018, 12:32 PM   #39
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thank you juliansader
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Old 08-27-2018, 01:08 PM   #40
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this will mess with my time line locators! which i hate to mess with! (i don't want to loose the loop/section i am focusing)

anyway! seems that first we need to select first lane and then apply the action.

is there a way to select first lane of selected track by script?
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