It's something that's nagged at me for years and I've just never posted anything. Why is it so hard to create a fade that sounds like a fade out done by hand on a mixer? What I mean is, when it gets to the end of the fade, it always drops off unpleasantly, and quickly. I can't get that nice smooth fade to black that I can by hand.
what am I missing? I've tried all the different shapes. The only way I've found is to add tons of points manually until it sounds halfway decent.
It's something that's nagged at me for years and I've just never posted anything. Why is it so hard to create a fade that sounds like a fade out done by hand on a mixer? What I mean is, when it gets to the end of the fade, it always drops off unpleasantly, and quickly. I can't get that nice smooth fade to black that I can by hand.
what am I missing? I've tried all the different shapes. The only way I've found is to add tons of points manually until it sounds halfway decent.
I can't be the only one who has noticed this.
any thoughts?
I noticed this, long time ago already, but don't know about any way of fixing this.
- Make sure you don't have any dynamics processing (gates, expanders, compressors) after the fade - i.e. put it on the Master track's Post-Fader volume envelope.
- You can combine different curves, sort of, by starting the fade with one shape and adding a second envelope point in the middle to switch to a different one.
- Try using a control surface to automate the fade by hand and then look at what the "good" curve looks like.
Click the the Master Track envelope button. Set Automation mode to 'Write'. Select all 3 'Volume' boxes. IE 'Volume', 'Visible' and 'ARM'. The fader path turns red.
Play your song and fade out, leaving the master fader at -inf for enough time for the track to end (turn Loop off). CTRL+drag is more precise. Switch the Master envelope back to Trim/Read.
You now have your fade, done by hand.
If you want to disable the fade, deselect the Volume envelope. You can of course redo it.
Last edited by bolgwrad; 04-24-2018 at 12:26 PM.
Reason: mistake
- Make sure you don't have any dynamics processing (gates, expanders, compressors) after the fade - i.e. put it on the Master track's Post-Fader volume envelope.
- You can combine different curves, sort of, by starting the fade with one shape and adding a second envelope point in the middle to switch to a different one.
- Try using a control surface to automate the fade by hand and then look at what the "good" curve looks like.
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to define a fade curve as some kind of preset?
If I have to automate a fade, maybe a "slow start/end" (going what would be about 'halfway' on a 'real' fader - down to -18?) and a bezier (or two!) to finish it off - drag this out to taste.
__________________ it's meant to sound like that...
Exactly what I was thinking.
Although, I don't have any problems with the item fade shapes. But, you can go into one of your old projects where you meticulously created a custom fade automation and turn it into an Automation Item. https://www.reaper.fm/videos.php#_eLjFKgv4bg
Exactly what I was thinking.
Although, I don't have any problems with the item fade shapes.
The OP does, and while I'm not allowed long fades, the preset fades aren't (to my ears) quite right - the slow start/end, even, doesn't end slowly enough. (edit: i.e. it's symmetrical, and perhaps I should be able to change that?) Course, it's not disappearing into noise floor like it would have done back in the day. Maybe that's part of it!
__________________ it's meant to sound like that...
It's something that's nagged at me for years and I've just never posted anything. Why is it so hard to create a fade that sounds like a fade out done by hand on a mixer? What I mean is, when it gets to the end of the fade, it always drops off unpleasantly, and quickly. I can't get that nice smooth fade to black that I can by hand.
what am I missing? I've tried all the different shapes. The only way I've found is to add tons of points manually until it sounds halfway decent.
I can't be the only one who has noticed this.
any thoughts?
Best results for truely musical fades (notably fade-outs of a song) can be achieved by using my VST plugin AW_SmoothFader. In contrast to all the different volume automation envelope modes in Reaper (linear, fast, slow, etc.) this plugin actually produces very smooth and musical fades, notably very useful to get smooth fade-outs at the end of songs.
Usage:
- place this plugin at the end of the master track's fx chain, however, plugins that only analyze the audio and don't affect it audibly (scopes, vu-meters, etc.) should be placed behind this plugin
- in order to create a smooth fade-out, insert an automation envelope for the "target level" parameter of the plugins and set the curve to the maximum value of 1 throughout the song
- the characteristic of the automation envelope points for this particular envelope should be set to "linear"
- at the desired location in the song (where the song fade-out should begin) insert a point into the target level envelope
- appr. 12-20 sec. after the first point, draw a second point into the envelope and drag it down to the curve's minimum value of 0; the curve shows a simple linear fade going from maximum to minimum (1 to 0)
- play back the automated section of the song. The plugin will create a very musical and smooth fade-out by smoothing out the original, linear envelope you've just drawn
- note that the actual smoothed fade-out will last a bit longer than the underlaying linear fade
- the "fade time" slider allows you to vary the smoothness of the fade; the default value of 6 sec. yields a very natural sounding fade, suitable for most occasions
Here you can see the smoothness of the resulting fade in a partial render:
I've created the VST plugin by modifying and optimizing an existing JS plugin for this purpose so some credit goes to the fellow(s) who coded the initial plugin (I have no information who it was).
what's the problem exactly here? item fade, track volume fade, etc?
have never had a hard time getting the fade i wanted in any context, be it a thunder-verb amphitheater space or close mic intimate shoebox. sometimes you need multiple fades on parent tracks for your different instrument groups, but that's a project issue
__________________ mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.
what's the problem exactly here? item fade, track volume fade, etc?
have never had a hard time getting the fade i wanted in any context, be it a thunder-verb amphitheater space or close mic intimate shoebox. sometimes you need multiple fades on parent tracks for your different instrument groups, but that's a project issue
problem is that none of the Reaper fade shapes yield a really musical fade. This is not an issue normally for individual items/tracks. But for decent song fade-outs results are not professional without a lot of fiddling around. Volume either drops inconsistently fast or way too slow at certain volumes during the fade process, especially below -30 dB. As a workaround, you can add multiple points of different fade characteristics to an envelope but the results still aren't good.
Volume either drops inconsistently fast or way too slow at certain volumes during the fade process, especially below -30 dB.
TCP fader definitely appears to be tapered, so recording automation of a mouse drag on the volume fader would do this...but as far as automating volume param, my track volume envelope is linear, from +0 to -100dB. if i apply a linear fade to a sine wav and render it, i see/hear what i expect to see/hear.
without using the word "musical," can you describe what you see happening below -30dB? this is something i need to know about if i'm missing anything.
if this is purely an envelope shape issue, can you please go into detail about what you mean when you say "As a workaround, you can add multiple points of different fade characteristics to an envelope but the results still aren't good."
i'll definitely try your plugin, i like the idea of chasing a running average and have used it to smooth out OSC messages in arduino projects.
__________________ mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.
2 tracks, 3 items. 1st item, item fade. 2nd item, track fade AI. 3rd item, SWsmooth AI. 1st track sends to 2nd, which records output. last item render stops abruptly because i didn't give it enough time but you can see the action.
it's a cool plugin, and i plan on using it because it's a shortcut, but isn't this behavior doable with the existing volume envelope too? or is it just a shortcut to a more desirable behavior for a specific task (project/track fadeout)?
__________________ mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.
TCP fader definitely appears to be tapered, so recording automation of a mouse drag on the volume fader would do this...but as far as automating volume param, my track volume envelope is linear, from +0 to -100dB. if i apply a linear fade to a sine wav and render it, i see/hear what i expect to see/hear.
without using the word "musical," can you describe what you see happening below -30dB? this is something i need to know about if i'm missing anything.
if this is purely an envelope shape issue, can you please go into detail about what you mean when you say "As a workaround, you can add multiple points of different fade characteristics to an envelope but the results still aren't good."
i'll definitely try your plugin, i like the idea of chasing a running average and have used it to smooth out OSC messages in arduino projects.
well, it's more what I actually hear than what I see (looking at the envelopes) which bothers me. Take a finished song as your testing object and try to add a fade out (somewhere in the middle of that song). You'd start and simply add a volume envelope and (to keep it simple) you'd add just two points on that envelope to fade out the song. Listen to what comes out and maybe look at the resulting wave form. Volume drops fairly slowly until the fader reaches -30 to -40 dB and then the volume starts dropping quicker and quicker. At very low volumes, the drop is getting extreme just before you have absolute silence. Try the same with other fade modes, the results will be similar. Compare such a fade-out with fade outs from decent releases and you will find that those fades have a different gradient. In short, they start gently, then accelerate a bit and are slowing down at volumes below -40 dB. They will have no steep drop and will sound just "musical" from beginning to the end.
I used to be quite happy with the stock fade characteristics of Sony Vegas before I switches to Reaper in 2012. Since then, I found myself struggling with song fade-outs during these years. It's subtle but they simply never felt "right". I was very happy to discover the JS plugin that led to my VST. To my ears, it now sounds "right" when I fade out songs.
If you find that a fade lingers too long at very low volumes you can still either add a third envelope point to make the drop quicker or add a simple Reaper volume fade on top of the smooth fade.
Just did some testing again and discovered that the linear envelope fade for the target level may need more than 12 sec. to sound good. 18 sec. or more may be better in some cases. It surely depends on the individual song.
Listen to what comes out and maybe look at the resulting wave form. Volume drops fairly slowly until the fader reaches -30 to -40 sB and then the volume starts dropping quicker and quicker. At very low volumes, the drop is getting extreme just before you have absolute silenc
do you see this in my screencap above (middle item)? because i don't. or are we talking about different things?
Quote:
well, it's more what I actually hear than what I see
let's print what you hear so we can see it. i want to see the bad behavior occurring below 30dB. when we talk about needing a different gradient i just hear that the user needs to add more envelope points and curvature, but i'm hearing from you that the result would still be "not good"
if i'm missing your point, and you're actually just trying to easily create a smooth fade from an easy, 2 point linear AI, that makes sense, but i get the impression that there's more at stake here
__________________ mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.
@SonicAxiom - the plug sounds pretty good - much more like what I expect - I note there's a bit of a 'scalloped' edge to the envelope - not audible - but smells a bit fishy?
__________________ it's meant to sound like that...
do you see this in my screencap above (middle item)? because i don't. or are we talking about different things?
let's print what you hear so we can see it. i want to see the bad behavior occurring below 30dB. when we talk about needing a different gradient i just hear that the user needs to add more envelope points and curvature, but i'm hearing from you that the result would still be "not good"
if i'm missing your point, and you're actually just trying to easily create a smooth fade from an easy, 2 point linear AI, that makes sense, but i get the impression that there's more at stake here
Reaper's visual representation of waveforms has the "flaw" of not actually showing what doesn't sound right. It's happening at very low levels and you might need to turn monitoring volume up during the fade to make it more perceivable. Listen to different fades and judge what YOU feel sounds pleasant, natural, smooth, appropriate for a given song. I have tried plenty of different methods and then settled on the method shown in the licecap because to me, it seems to always sound pleasant. I'm not saying that you have to like it also. You may also find that different fades give different results and you may prefer a particular fade over another in a given context and, thus, will go for it. I have not yet found any fade generated with Reaper means that gives me that feeling of not wanting to change something to make it more appropriate.
@SonicAxiom - the plug sounds pretty good - much more like what I expect - I note there's a bit of a 'scalloped' edge to the envelope - not audible - but smells a bit fishy?
what you are seeing is the constant smoothing happening while the target level is changing in steps. Did you use a sine wave for this test? You can probably get rid of this effect by lowering the length of the linear target level envelope and in return raising the fade time parameter to something like 10 sec.
this isn't a subjective issue of who like what more, so there's no need to discuss that. we're trying to determine if there's an actual problem below -30dB as claimed, which we should be able to reproduce visually if it's a real envelope problem. and if it's a real problem, i need to know about it.
__________________ mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
|sis - - - anacru| isn't what we performed: pls no extra noteons in loop recording
| - - - - - anacru|sis <==this is what we actually performed.
this isn't a subjective issue of who like what more, so there's no need to discuss that. we're trying to determine if there's an actual problem below -30dB as claimed, which we should be able to reproduce visually if it's a real envelope problem. and if it's a real problem, i need to know about it.
I think the problem is that the curves available as presets ( exponential? a sort of s-curve? and the others) don't seem to be what you'd actually do with your hand on a fader. SonicAxiom's plug sounds better (to some) - it seems to be approximating some kind of gaussian e^−x^2 sort of thing - which gives a slightly slow start and a distinctly long finish.
(I am not a mathematician).
__________________ it's meant to sound like that...
The default mouse modifier is now for Alt-drag the middle of fades and cross-fades to change the fade shape. In this video he shows changing the mouse modifier to that behavior. Furthermore, you can alt-drag between two automation point to create curves and adjust their shape. So, it may be a matter of using a 3-point fade out with modified curves to get the sound you're after.
I think the problem may not be the fade shapes, but that the waveform may be drawn in logarithmic amplitude like the faders are, which would explain faster reaction from -30 to -100 dB in the bottom of the fade shape. Is there a way to change the item automation lane to linear?
{EDIT} Have you tried changing the setting Preferences > Project > Track/Send Defaults > Scaling for new volume envelopes to "Volume fader scaling" instead of the default "Amplitude scaling"?
You can also change the scaling of a single automation lane by right-clicking and selecting Envelope Defaults > Volume envelope: fader scaling.
I remember a special fade-out plugin in the New Products Area of Gearslutz but can't find it anymore. Had a Russian tube-number style of GUI.
Proximity is wonderful for more "natural" fades because it shapes the sound in different ways. Unfortunately it doesn't go down to -infinity.
Also PurestGain might be interesting for those who want smooth and sound-wise perfect movements in volume. Like Proximity it's only damping and not going to full silence. But you could combine several or even with Proximity to tweak for the fade out.
The issue isn't that a good smooth fade can't be done - obviously, you can do a manual fade (even save it as an automation item, as was pointed out to me :-) ) or tweak / combine preset fades. Rather, the preset fades aren't of themselves quite right for this sort of thing. I knocked up a demo jsfx to illustrate a gaussian fade.
__________________ it's meant to sound like that...
{EDIT} Have you tried changing the setting Preferences > Project > Track/Send Defaults > Scaling for new volume envelopes to "Volume fader scaling" instead of the default "Amplitude scaling"?
You can also change the scaling of a single automation lane by right-clicking and selecting Envelope Defaults > Volume envelope: fader scaling.
Have you tried this yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrk
The issue isn't that a good smooth fade can't be done - obviously, you can do a manual fade (even save it as an automation item, as was pointed out to me :-) ) or tweak / combine preset fades. Rather, the preset fades aren't of themselves quite right for this sort of thing. I knocked up a demo jsfx to illustrate a gaussian fade.
Are you only talking about ITEM Fades?
As far as I know, you cannot change the scaling of the fades for ITEM fades like you can for volume automation. Even with an item fade, whenever I thought a fade out ended too abruptly, I just extend it out beyond the end.
Anyway, I don't think ITEM FADES were ever meant to supplant volume automation. Are you all saying that all other DAWs make better sounding ITEM Fades? It's been a long time since I used another DAW.
For VOLUME AUTOMATION, changing the scale really does make a difference. REAPER User Guide Chapter 18.12 says, "Note: Amplitude vs Fader Scaling
Right-click over a volume envelope for a context menu which includes Volume envelope scaling (under the Envelope defaults option). Available options are amplitude scaling (the default) and fader scaling, each of which will produce different results. With amplitude scaling, half as high, for example, is half as loud, whereas with fader scaling the envelope height corresponds to the track fader. Fader scaling can make editing the envelope at low levels of volume easier. Changing your preference on an envelope after points have been added will affect the sound level produced by that envelope."
Using a two-point Fast start fade with the automation lane set to Fader Scaling appears to create a similar fade out as SonicAxiom's VST plugin and only takes a few clicks to make.
Using a two-point Fast start fade with the automation lane set to Fader Scaling appears to create a similar fade out as SonicAxiom's VST plugin and only takes a few clicks to make.
It actually sounds similar and fast start fade is the best fade for song fade-outs you can get with Reaper fades. However, the fast start fade drops too slowly during the first part of the fade and then, towards the end of the fade, it needs to drop a lot to reach -inf.
Here's a comparison of a fast start volume fade (green) vs. SmoothFader. Region names reflect the intermediate signal levels every 6 seconds during a 30 sec. fade, first figure is for fast start fade:
Both fades are set up to fade the signal to -inf. after 30 sec. To accomplish this with SmoothFader, I have to set fade time slider to 6000 ms and have to position the second envelope point at 75% of the fade time. Fast start fade drops less fast throughout the whole fade duration but drops down from -60 dB to -inf. during the last 10 % of the fade time. In contrast, SmoothFader drops faster throughout and reaches -87 dB at 90 % of the fade length. Level is then further decreased to -115 dB at 97 % and then drops down to -inf. only during the last 3 % of the fade length.
Btw., I'm using standard item fades all the time without any issue. I'm only reaching out for my plugin when I have to fade out entire songs.
However, the fast start fade drops too slowly during the first part of the fade and then, towards the end of the fade, it needs to drop a lot to reach -inf.
I suppose the optimum behavior is greatly a matter of taste.
You might want to try my Midi Fade X JSFX-plugin available on ReaPack. Same uses an exponential fade followed by a linear at a breakpoint you can set, in a way that the slope is the same for both curves at the breakpoint. I suppose this technically is the optimum way.
Are you only talking about ITEM Fades?
As far as I know, you cannot change the scaling of the fades for ITEM fades like you can for volume automation. Even with an item fade, whenever I thought a fade out ended too abruptly, I just extend it out beyond the end.
Anyway, I don't think ITEM FADES were ever meant to supplant volume automation. Are you all saying that all other DAWs make better sounding ITEM Fades? It's been a long time since I used another DAW.
For VOLUME AUTOMATION, changing the scale really does make a difference. REAPER User Guide Chapter 18.12 says, [...]
Using a two-point Fast start fade with the automation lane set to Fader Scaling appears to create a similar fade out as SonicAxiom's VST plugin and only takes a few clicks to make.
Changing the envelope to fader scaling is a big help. And (for example) makes a "slow start/end" sound pretty good (IMHO). And, no, I wasn't just meaning item fades - as far as I can tell these are effectively 2 point fades with the same shape choice (for start) as automation points.
And no, I'm not talking about other DAWs, I was merely trying to address the OPs question. In summary then (I'm not claiming these as my ideas - they've all been contributed by others, above):
"How to create a decent fade out in Reaper"
(I'm assuming we're talking about a fadeout for a finished tune - all my other fading needs are adequately met by either item fades or 2/3 point fades with the preset shapes - but YMMV)
1. Do it manually.
2. Consider a dedicated fadeout plugin
3. Use a combination of points with different shapes to suit your target curve.
4. Consider changing the envelope scaling
5. If you've found / built your ideal fade make it an automation item - so you can reuse it (but this won't save any scaling change?)
Cheers!
__________________ it's meant to sound like that...
You might want to try my Midi Fade X JSFX-plugin available on ReaPack. Same uses an exponential fade followed by a linear at a breakpoint you can set, in a way that the slope is the same for both curves at the breakpoint. I suppose this technically is the optimum way.
-Michael
I'd like to test this. How do I have to set this plugin up to create a master fade-out at the end of a song? Can it handle audio? The name suggests that it only works on MIDI data.
It actually sounds similar and fast start fade is the best fade for song fade-outs you can get with Reaper fades. However, the fast start fade drops too slowly during the first part of the fade and then, towards the end of the fade, it needs to drop a lot to reach -inf.
Here's a comparison of a fast start volume fade (green) vs. SmoothFader. Region names reflect the intermediate signal levels every 6 seconds during a 30 sec. fade, first figure is for fast start fade:
Both fades are set up to fade the signal to -inf. after 30 sec. To accomplish this with SmoothFader, I have to set fade time slider to 6000 ms and have to position the second envelope point at 75% of the fade time. Fast start fade drops less fast throughout the whole fade duration but drops down from -60 dB to -inf. during the last 10 % of the fade time. In contrast, SmoothFader drops faster throughout and reaches -87 dB at 90 % of the fade length. Level is then further decreased to -115 dB at 97 % and then drops down to -inf. only during the last 3 % of the fade length.
Btw., I'm using standard item fades all the time without any issue. I'm only reaching out for my plugin when I have to fade out entire songs.
.
I see. But, in this example it looks like you are still comparing Amplitude scaling against Smoothfader. Even using a linear fade shape with the volume envelope set to Fader Scaling sounds way different.
I initially said a fast-start fade with Fader Scaling, but that shape sounds drastically different with Fader Scaling than with Amplitude Scaling. As JRK noted, the slow-start/end shape is more natural sounding with fader scaling. When I use my mouse or a controller to do a fade-out on the volume envelope, I always seem to make a slow-start/end (S-shape) shape automation curve. However, it appears you cannot alt-drag the slow start/end shape to adjust its center-point. Alt-dragging converts it to a logarithmic/exponential shape (fast start or fast end) only. I think it would be cool if we could alt-drag the Slow-start/end (logistic curve, AKA S-shape) automation shape to move the center-point.
If you shift-click in the middle of a Slow-start/end automation shape, the shape is slow-start/end between the first point and the new middle point and from the new middle point to the end becomes linear (at default settings). To me, this is unwanted behavior. I would rather the two original points convert to fast-end and fast start. But, that doesn't retain the original S-shape either, because you cannot define the shape by the end-point. So, I suppose the conversion would have to be for the original start point to convert to fast-end and the new middle point convert to fast-start which creates a much steeper S-shape than the 2-point Slow-start/end shape.
It appears to me that if you want ultimate control over an S-shape, you need 4 Bezier shape points to create your ideal S-curve.
Ultimately, if this were something I needed to do often with so much precision, I think it would be time to purchase a fader controller and just do it by hand each time. Presonus Faderport has a 100mm motorized fader that claims a resolution of 1024 steps. They're $130 at Sweetwater right now.
It appears to me that if you want ultimate control over an S-shape, you need 4 Bezier shape points to create your ideal S-curve.
Yes, you'd need to add control points. (Still not a mathematician, but) we don't even have two control points on these 'curves'. We can control the 'tension' on the start point, but not the end point (only its position), and there's no notion of a mid-point (which would need two handles / 'tensions'). That's why they don't do for this job.
__________________ it's meant to sound like that...
The name suggests that it only works on MIDI data.
It does not work on Midi data, it is controlled by a Midi CC and modifies an audio stream. (See ReaPack documentation for the JSFX.)
Here, you need to do a Midi track and create a CC changing from 127 to 0 and route this CC to the plugin.
It would be easy to modify the plugin to use an additional fader instead of or additional to a Midi CC as it's input. This done, you could use automation to do the fade out starting edge.
will those fade plugins work on a Mac? It looks like windows DLL only?
my smooth fader plugin is a dll file and thus, Win-only. I don't know how to code VSTs for Mac, sorry. You may find similar plugins as JS files, though, which will work on Mac.
How to create a decent fade out in Reaper
Linear Mode
