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10-09-2018, 12:03 PM
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#201
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Cologne
Posts: 1,636
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I'm soooooooo (!!!) glad, this comes up for discussion again. I really love reaper (and I've got many different DAWs). For me Pro Tools take system / playlists are perfect. In addition to issues listed I hate the fact that you have to cut items if you want to have a gap between takes. This is one behaviour that makes Pro Tools system valuable for me: You don't have to edit your raw recorded takes at all. They stay as they are which means: You always can have a look how long your phrases are in every take. This is awesome even for click based music. Musicians don't play or especially sing a phrase the same way in every take. If you decide to take a short phrase instead of the long phrase take and you want to clean the pauses between takes (to get rid of breaths or other mouth noises) you have to cut the long phrase. The problem with that is that you lose visible feedback of the exact content of the different takes.
Another problem: If you got lets say two takes and cut them into three pieces A, B, C to comp and decide which parts of which take you want and end up with A1 B1 C2 you need a linear fade between A1 and B1 (because they are of the same take, so they need equal gain crossfades) and an equal power fade between B1 and C2 to have the correct levels. Healing takes isn't that easy at the moment I think. Especially if the different takes don't have the same lengths and the split between A1 and B1 is caused by the later beginning of take 2...
Last edited by Gass n Klang; 10-09-2018 at 02:51 PM.
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10-09-2018, 02:23 PM
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#202
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Cubase uses the bottom-most, video apps use top-most, but in Reaper's video prefs there is the option to choose between bottom-most or top-most having priority so it should likely be the same option available for audio.
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I agree. I personally prefer the 'bottom-most' behaviour.
I'm not a fan of having a gazillion options, but that seems like a good optional behaviour.
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10-09-2018, 02:32 PM
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#203
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang
Another problem: If you got lets say two takes and cut them into three pieces A, B, C to comp and decide which parts of which take you want and end up with A1 B1 C2 you need a linear fade between A1 and B1 (because they are of the same take, so they need equal gain crossfades) and an equal power fade between B1 and C2 to have the correct levels. Healing takes isn't that easy at the moment I think. Especially when the different takes don't have the same lengths and the split between A1 and B1 is caused by the later beginning of take 2...
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I'm a bit lost here. If A1 and B1 are part of the same take, then they should not require a crossfade. They will play perfectly as-is.
I don't understand why A1 and B2 would need to be healed either?
Could you provide a picture or video of this perhaps?
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10-09-2018, 02:35 PM
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#204
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: South
Posts: 587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang
I'm soooooooo (!!!) glad, this comes up for discussion again. I really love reaper (and I've got many different DAWs). For me Pro Tools take system / playlists are perfect. In addition to issues listed I hate the fact that you have to cut items if you want to have a gap between takes. This is one behaviour that makes Pro Tools system valuable for me: You don't have to edit your raw recorded takes at all. They stay as they are which means: You always can have a look how long your phrases are in every take. This is awesome even for click based music. Musicians don't play or especially sing a phrase the same way in every take. If you decide to take a short phrase instead of the long phrase take and you want to clean the pauses between takes (to get rid of breaths or other mouth noises) you have to cut the long phrase. The problem with that is that you lose visible feedback of the exact content of the different takes.
Another problem: If you got lets say two takes and cut them into three pieces A, B, C to comp and decide which parts of which take you want and end up with A1 B1 C2 you need a linear fade between A1 and B1 (because they are of the same take, so they need equal gain crossfades) and an equal power fade between B1 and C2 to have the correct levels. Healing takes isn't that easy at the moment I think. Especially when the different takes don't have the same lengths and the split between A1 and B1 is caused by the later beginning of take 2...
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Exactly what I hope for - a very simple method very much like ProTools.
Until this takes process is simplified, I just record on separate tracks, and comp into a comp track.
(which is no big deal as I come from previous decades of using analog tape)
Last edited by ChristopherT; 10-09-2018 at 08:30 PM.
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10-09-2018, 02:53 PM
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#205
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Cologne
Posts: 1,636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Randolph
I'm a bit lost here. If A1 and B1 are part of the same take, then they should not require a crossfade. They will play perfectly as-is.
I don't understand why A1 and B2 would need to be healed either?
Could you provide a picture or video of this perhaps?
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sorry I was inaccurate: A1 and B1 should not require a crossfade, correct. But I often split takes into single phrases which makes it easy to listen to and decide. The healing process refered to A1 and B1.
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10-09-2018, 04:15 PM
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#206
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Black Forest
Posts: 5,054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang
I'm soooooooo (!!!) glad, this comes up for discussion again. I really love reaper (and I've got many different DAWs). For me Pro Tools take system / playlists are perfect. In addition to issues listed I hate the fact that you have to cut items if you want to have a gap between takes. This is one behaviour that makes Pro Tools system valuable for me: You don't have to edit your raw recorded takes at all. They stay as they are which means: You always can have a look how long your phrases are in every take. This is awesome even for click based music. Musicians don't play or especially sing a phrase the same way in every take. If you decide to take a short phrase instead of the long phrase take and you want to clean the pauses between takes (to get rid of breaths or other mouth noises) you have to cut the long phrase. The problem with that is that you lose visible feedback of the exact content of the different takes.
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This sums it up perfectly... I don't like the approach to cut takes into chunks. And yes, artists sing / perform takes differently, especially if you encourage them to try out completely different things!
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10-09-2018, 06:10 PM
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#207
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: The Dutch Mountains
Posts: 389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
I think it'd make more sense to somehow adapt FIPM to those other-DAW comping workflows rather than trying to shoehorn current take system into those.
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This with track alternatives/ playlists/ swipe comping the REAPER way....
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10-10-2018, 09:27 AM
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#208
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Cologne
Posts: 1,636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III
This with track alternatives/ playlists/ swipe comping the REAPER way....
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In my opinion the current take system doesn't have any advantages over a playlist style system. So why keep a weak system when introducing something new and more performant...
Just for compatibility reasons? I think there are many possibilities to keep old workflows working. But if we keep every line of code Reaper will end as a big, slow and intransparent software.
Would be interesting to know how many people really need to be upward compatible with old projects...
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10-10-2018, 09:33 AM
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#209
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang
In my opinion the current take system doesn't have any advantages over a playlist style system. So why keep a weak system when introducing something new and more performant...
Just for compatibility reasons? I think there are many possibilities to keep old workflows working. But if we keep every line of code Reaper will end as a big, slow and intransparent software.
Would be interesting to know how many people really need to be upward compatible with old projects...
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I have reaper projects since 2006. It would be helpful if they were compatible.
Not essential, but helpful.
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10-10-2018, 09:41 AM
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#210
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang
Just for compatibility reasons? I think there are many possibilities to keep old workflows working. But if we keep every line of code Reaper will end as a big, slow and intransparent software.
Would be interesting to know how many people really need to be upward compatible with old projects...
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This is Reaper's philosophy. You can open every project in any newer version and be sure it loads correctly.
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10-10-2018, 10:00 AM
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#211
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang
In my opinion the current take system doesn't have any advantages over a playlist style system.
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That's just because you're used to a different system. It's only weak (in certain points) because you're used to a different system. It doesn't seem weak for other users. So why would it ever be removed? Besides, feature removal is not in Reaper's credo.
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10-10-2018, 10:00 AM
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#212
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang
sorry I was inaccurate: A1 and B1 should not require a crossfade, correct. But I often split takes into single phrases which makes it easy to listen to and decide. The healing process refered to A1 and B1.
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I just tried some complex take setups, but heal always works for me if it's a simple split.
I'd like to add your issue to the main list if I can reproduce it.
I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious. A picture may help, or perhaps a project file.
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10-10-2018, 10:07 AM
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#213
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Randolph
I'd like to add your issue to the main list if I can reproduce it.
I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious. A picture may help, or perhaps a project file.
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There is a rare occasion where items won't heal that should heal (I think), I've never been able to reproduce it on demand and think it is a potential corner-case bug - but I have experienced it a handful of times.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-10-2018, 10:22 AM
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#214
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang
In my opinion the current take system doesn't have any advantages over a playlist style system. So why keep a weak system when introducing something new and more performant...
Just for compatibility reasons? I think there are many possibilities to keep old workflows working. But if we keep every line of code Reaper will end as a big, slow and intransparent software.
Would be interesting to know how many people really need to be upward compatible with old projects...
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There are some advantages:
- Easier per-take automation
- Easier per-take effects
- Takes are decoupled from the 'comp', so takes can be used as 'item alternatives' easily. This is a huge asset for post-production/film and similar workflows.
- Since items contain takes, you can combine the layer and take system for a very powerful system that works nicely for post-production and film workflows.
- Takes (in their item container) can be easily moved to other tracks, which is something that's difficult to do in other DAWs since they link takes to tracks.
I do agree that the current system is not that great for music. For the task of recording musicians performing, I personally think other systems allow you to achieve better results with less work.
HOWEVER, music isn't all there is to using a DAW. Losing the current system would be a huge blow to reaper's capability as a DAW.
I would like if the current capabilities of reaper were improved to work with music-production workflows. Then we'd retain all of the benefits of the current system and also have a great system on top of that.
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10-10-2018, 10:32 AM
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#215
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
There is a rare occasion where items won't heal that should heal (I think), I've never been able to reproduce it on demand and think it is a potential corner-case bug - but I have experienced it a handful of times.
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If you catch it, can you take a quick licecap of it for me? I want to make sure it's listed.
I've been watching carefully for it to happen. I thought I saw it once, but it turned out that the items were moved. Once I hit undo a few times, everything worked.
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10-10-2018, 10:37 AM
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#216
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Randolph
If you catch it, can you take a quick licecap of it for me? I want to make sure it's listed.
I've been watching carefully for it to happen. I thought I saw it once, but it turned out that the items were moved. Once I hit undo a few times, everything worked.
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Yep, I'm not 100% convinced I didn't move it some tiny amount or similar and didn't realize it but next time it occurs I'll screen cap it.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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10-10-2018, 01:17 PM
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#217
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: The Dutch Mountains
Posts: 389
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Meanwhile in another part of town... Protools playlist / Cubase track versions script
Create independent track(items) versions and envelopes.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IVg...ew?usp=sharing
If this was native, it could be integrated into the REAPER user interface and maybe be more "robust"
Last edited by Robert Johnson III; 10-10-2018 at 02:05 PM.
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10-10-2018, 01:28 PM
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#218
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 4,598
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I suck at making tutorials . But anyway there are a lot of more things you can do with it, but its not for this discussion. I am happy to make some alternative until hopefully someday the real thing arrives. Cheers
Last edited by Sexan; 10-10-2018 at 01:36 PM.
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10-10-2018, 02:06 PM
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#219
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: The Dutch Mountains
Posts: 389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan
I suck at making tutorials . But anyway there are a lot of more things you can do with it, but its not for this discussion. I am happy to make some alternative until hopefully someday the real thing arrives. Cheers
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Me thinks Cockos Incorporated should hire you….
Last edited by Robert Johnson III; 10-10-2018 at 02:26 PM.
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10-10-2018, 02:37 PM
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#220
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 4,598
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for most awful coding ever? I'm all for it . I'm not good at coding,and I do not make much scripts,but when I do I make sure it complicates my life
anyway if there are some useful features/behavior/ideas in it for this discussion, here is a short overview:
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...28&postcount=1
Won't be posting anymore about it
Last edited by Sexan; 10-10-2018 at 02:51 PM.
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10-10-2018, 03:46 PM
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#221
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: St. Petersburg, FL
Posts: 880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan
for most awful coding ever? I'm all for it . I'm not good at coding,and I do not make much scripts,but when I do I make sure it complicates my life
anyway if there are some useful features/behavior/ideas in it for this discussion, here is a short overview:
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...28&postcount=1
Won't be posting anymore about it
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Thank you for bringing this up though. It's an important sibling to the take-system.
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10-20-2018, 09:58 AM
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#222
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 417
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Please Justin, could you take a look at these 2 issues? I find them very annoying everytime I'm working on multimic takes...thanks!
Issue #1
I grouped various drums takes across tracks, and if I accidentally mute/unmute one item (using the M button on the label)without selecting it before, only that very item will be muted/unmuted, while the other ones (that are part of the same take) will be not affected. This can cause big problems if I don't notice it right away, especially if I have many takes and tracks. So, could we have a new kind of "mute" button affecting all the items that are part of the same group, regardless if they are selected or not? Or at very least have an option in the preferences?
Issue #2
If I move a grouped item up or down in FIPM , only that very item will be moved. This is annoying, because I'll have to manually move each grouped item if, for example,I want to crossfade them with items from other takes.
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10-20-2018, 10:17 AM
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#223
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxdis
If I move a grouped item up or down in FIPM , only that very item will be moved. This is annoying, because I'll have to manually move each grouped item if, for example,I want to crossfade them with items from other takes.
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This has nothing in common with take system.
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10-21-2018, 04:26 AM
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#224
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitalker
This has nothing in common with take system.
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Maybe it's not directly related to it, but many of us are using FIPM as an alternative to the take system, and since this thread is becoming a kind of "official" thread regarding take system, I think it could be the right place to talk about FIPM and grouping too.
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10-21-2018, 04:33 AM
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#225
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 13,333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxdis
Maybe it's not directly related to it, but many of us are using FIPM as an alternative to the take system, and since this thread is becoming a kind of "official" thread regarding take system, I think it could be the right place to talk about FIPM and grouping too.
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Maybe you are right. Let's wait for response.
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10-21-2018, 06:59 AM
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#226
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emarsk
This is just a description of the generic concept, not of the implementation. The devil's in the details, here: the concept is fine, the issues all come from the specific peculiarities of REAPER's current implementation and how they interact with some workflows; that's what makes "easily" debatable.
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This is not a generic concept but very practical remark ... I used it so many times when recording multiple takes and all worked fine ...
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10-23-2018, 09:25 AM
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#227
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NA - North Augusta South Carolina
Posts: 4,294
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gass n Klang
In my opinion the current take system doesn't have any advantages over a playlist style system.
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As I see it, relative to what I know of the Pro Tools system, is that I can quickly select the parts of takes I want via highlighting/mouse clicking and then in one step "select current take" and condense them. I don't have to click buttons to hear each take (they're already selected), no changing to selector tool, I don't have to click extra buttons to "move" them to another track or enter something into a playlist dialog title, select "new playlist", .. or more things I've maybe left out.
That may be a wrong depiction, or I've added/left out something, but as I see it Pro Tools always wants me to do a bunch of unnecessary additional steps I don't have to do in Reaper. I HATE bureaucracy, Pro Tools feels like a U.S. government agency designed it. Of course your mileage may vary.
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10-25-2018, 11:46 PM
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#228
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
I've got a single button macro on an infrared remote that throws away what I was recording, re-positions back to where I punched into record, and starts recording from that point again, so the moment I don't like a part I'm recording, I hit my "Do Over" button, and I'm recording the next take, but the previous one is nuked so when I do get a good one, I'm 100% done with that section.
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Can you share the actions for that? I couldn't find an action to throw away the current recording....
I also can't find any of these takes and lanes preferences in reaper:
Options: New recording creates new media items in separate lanes (layers)
Options: Show overlapping media items in lanes
Options: Loop recording always adds takes to newly recorded items (except in track free item positioning mode)
I've done a FIND in the reaper preferences window.... are they somewhere else?
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10-26-2018, 09:22 AM
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#230
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 1,429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz
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Thanks Coachz, great stuff.
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10-28-2018, 09:31 PM
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#231
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 633
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Yeah, really helpful!
Some weird things happened with layout, but I was able to use the system pretty effectively today, thanks to this guide.
One thing I'd love to stop happening, and I'll go back through your guide and see if I can figure out.... but that is when a take slightly overlaps an old take, and an extra lane is created just for that tiny overlap. Is there a way to avoid this?
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10-29-2018, 07:12 AM
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#232
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodslanding
I also can't find any of these takes and lanes preferences in reaper:
Options: New recording creates new media items in separate lanes (layers)
Options: Show overlapping media items in lanes
Options: Loop recording always adds takes to newly recorded items (except in track free item positioning mode)
I've done a FIND in the reaper preferences window.... are they somewhere else?
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They are actions in the Actions list.
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10-29-2018, 07:15 AM
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#233
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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The first two are also in the options dropdown.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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11-13-2018, 02:20 AM
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#234
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 794
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WOW this is a real take system bestiary!
After several trials I ended up using take-system only in one manner: make a selection, record over and over with punch in selection option so that all recordings perfectly coincides in length, no split occours, no empty lanes exist.
In this way I don't have most of the issues listed here, but yes this is restricting the possibilities...
I believe that any fix to current take system would just worsen the thing, it probably have to be rewritten completely. E.g. taking Logic as an example.
g
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11-13-2018, 05:17 AM
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#235
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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11-15-2018, 01:03 PM
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#236
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 5
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relatively new to reaper here, I'll be having a close look at that take.doc later, thanks for that.
I did some recording recently, and had a moment that made me have to stop and take stock.
I'm not too clued up with Pro tools, but do know about the playlist system, so I wanted to try something like that with reaper-so just to get something done, I created a parent folder with pedal, amp and impulse loader, then a child track to that which I recorded DI guitar, obviously played through the parent folder. Then I simply duplicated the child track and repeated the recording-4 takes total.
Then I went through each take and made edits where the playing was not right, simple splits and muted sections.
Just for giggles, I tried rendering all 4 tracks together-playing through the parent folder, with one instance of VSTs, couldn't believe how well it worked.
The 4 parts overlap, with some instances of 3 parts playing, but for me, the implications are good, I can do double track guitars, or quads, panned and they will only need 1 VST per set, obviously same tones, but separate takes,
maybe its me, but that just blew my mind a bit.
like I said, I'm new here, but made the switch to reaper about 6 months ago, from both pro-tools and Logic, and when I go back to some of my old projects, I cant believe how clumsy they feel.
thanks for having me.
cheers.
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12-13-2018, 07:25 AM
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#237
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 272
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The main problem with Reaper's take system is that there is no system.
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12-13-2018, 11:39 AM
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#238
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,651
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thought I'd share this, but a couple of weeks ago I made a cycle action to toggle between takes and layers, because there are times when I really need layers for the overlapping parts, just as there are times I can be more efficient with takes...but unfortunately couldn't have both. Until now.
It takes a little forethought in a session to know if I'll need one or the other, but in this way I am able to record either using takes or lanes system. Doesn't seem to work after the fact: if I record with takes already, the toggle will not open them up as overlapping lanes (fyi, this is NOT cntrl-L)...and vice versa, so that could be a good feature request. But it does somewhat merge the two systems. I've had some time with it and it is working really well for me.
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12-13-2018, 01:07 PM
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#239
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 12,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoox
The main problem with Reaper's take system is that there is no system.
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It doesn't appear they ever actually used it with a live band or in many practical situations.
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12-13-2018, 08:56 PM
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#240
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,613
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Try as I might, the only way takes gets any use for me is knowing after recording takes I can "Explode takes of items across tracks" and proceed, and just use takes as a means to get takes recorded without needing to have new adjacent tracks ready to record more on. But once anything, whether it's on basic tracking or overdubs, is recorded, if there are takes they get immediately exploded onto tracks. Generally I'm recording in tape mode.
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The reason rain dances work is because they don't stop dancing until it rains.
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