VST3 on Linus now available

[krahosk]

yabridge is a modern and transparent way to use Windows VST2 and VST3 plugins on Linux as if they were native Linux VST2 and VST3 plugins. VST2 and VST3 are the two most widely used standards for audio processing plugins. Historically the vast majority of these plugins have only been available for Windows and macOS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comme...st_ever_linux/

[JamesPeters]

We know.

[4duhwinnn]

and share your enthusiasm!

[maralatho]

[krahosk]

Sorry, about the old news. I have a newbie question: all I have to do is install Linux and then Yabridge? I'm ready to go with Reaper and all my VST3s?

[Glennbo]

You'll need to have WINE installed for any Windows plugins to run in, and Yabridge makes them look like native Linux VST3s to the Linux version of REAPER.

[4duhwinnn]

And for now, don't get a wine newer than 6.4, as the reaper prefs area won't show any text. AVLinux distro has a Reaper demo and wine 6.2 preinstalled, which would help you test things. The iso can be burned on a dvd or use
rufus usb utility from windows or other utility that put's iso's on a bootable usbstick.

AVLinux: www.bandshed.net/avlinux

https://rufus.ie/en_US/

Cheers

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by 4duhwinnn

And for now, don't get a wine newer than 6.4, as the reaper prefs area won't show any text.

That's only true if you are running the Windows version of REAPER in WINE.

Running the Linux version of REAPER and bridging Windows plugins in WINE does not have that problem.

Personally, I have no need for the Windows version of REAPER in Linux.

[uksnowy]

So, all this Linux/VST/WINE has me all confused. Admittedly, I am not a seasoned Linux user but I have been thinking of having Reaper run on Linux. I have held off because I believed my plugins (Windows) would not work. I have invested too much to then not have use of them.

I know one can run WINE but that just seems like another layer of processing to get in the way.

So here are some question I hope someone can be kind enough to answer.

If I run Linux version of Reaper, can I run my Windows plugins with Yardbridge?
How are ilock plugins handled in all this?
Can I run Ozone, Waves, Native Instruments? without any black-magic that normally comes with doing anything on Linux?

Many thanks.

[Held]

Originally Posted by krahosk

I'm ready to go with Reaper and all my VST3s?

There are some limitations. For example, iLok is really difficult to get to work and some other copy protection software is causing problems as well.

Originally Posted by Glennbo

Running the Linux version of REAPER and bridging Windows plugins in WINE does not have that problem.

True, but there are other problem with some VSTs so the official recommendation is still wine 6.4.

Originally Posted by https://github.com/robbert-vdh/yabridge

At the moment it's recommended to stick with Wine Staging 6.4 since newer versions have regressions that tend to cause many popular plugins to crash during shutdown, downloads in Native Access to fail, and Wine processes to not shut down properly. See below for instructions on downgrading to Wine Staging 6.4.

[Held]

Originally Posted by uksnowy

How are ilock plugins handled in all this?
Can I run Ozone, Waves, Native Instruments? without any black-magic that normally comes with doing anything on Linux?

iLok plugins cause a lot of problems, but some people get them to run. Ozone, I don't know. I've tried another iZotope plugin and couldn't get it to work.

Waves doesn't work because it requires Powershell which isn't supported by Wine. But at least on person says they got it to work https://github.com/PietJankbal/power...-wine/issues/4

Native Instruments seems to be working okay, though.

[robbert-vdh]

Originally Posted by uksnowy

If I run Linux version of Reaper, can I run my Windows plugins with Yardbridge?
How are ilock plugins handled in all this?
Can I run Ozone, Waves, Native Instruments? without any black-magic that normally comes with doing anything on Linux?

Like @Held mentioned, at the moment invasive DRM is the main cause of plugins not working. These kinds of DRM try to aggressively prevent you from using the software on multiple computers at once, so it's also not completely unsurprising that they don't always work flawlessly under Wine (but then again, on Windows they also tend to cause long plugin startup times and iLoK sometimes also invalidates your licenses at random).

From the companies you mentioned, Native Instruments is actually the only company that doesn't use these kinds of DRM. Installing their plugins can still be slightly tricky ever since they got rid of the ability to just download the installer from their website (installation instructions), but other than that their plugins run flawlessly.

iLoK Cloud mostly works, but I'd still recommend avoiding it because of their business practices and the amount of headaches those can cause. And USB iLoK won't work at the moment. With iLoK you need to be careful to deactivate your licenses first before you upgrade Wine or change any partitions on your system since iLoK will then think you're on a new computer and your licenses would be invalidated if you didn't manually deactivate them yourself first.

Waves plugins works under Wine, but I'd stay away from it as far as possible. Waves Central 12 is built with six layers of overengineering, and getting that to install involves about 20 minutes of elbow grease. And then there's of course no guarantee that it will keep working, with Waves only offering to reset your licenses once per year. So if things go wrong twice, Waves expects you to just pay up again.

And iZotope plugins don't activate at all under Wine at the moment. There used to be a way to at least get the 32-bit versions of the plugins to activate, but those versions are no longer supported.

But luckily there are lots of other great plugins about there that don't use these kinds of DRM! Even FabFilter doesn't do these things, and they just use a simple challenge-response system instead.

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by Held

True, but there are other problem with some VSTs so the official recommendation is still wine 6.4.

I recently switched to Manjaro, and just installed the version of wine-staging it had in the repository. All my Windows plugins worked, so I left it and since then I've seen WINE get updated several times.

Currently I'm running WINE 6.10 and Kontakt, Superior Drummer 2, Arturia MiniMoog V, and some other Windows plugins I still use all work. If those break at some point, I'll downgrade.

Also, when I switched to Linux I ditched a couple of plugins I had that I knew were going to be problematic due to their "Alien on your face laying exploding eggs in your stomach" copy protection. I got rid of Lexicon MPX Native Reverb with the iLok dongle and PACE virus it needs to run, and a Waves DBX160 compressor that needs the WaveShell virus.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by 4duhwinnn

And for now, don't get a wine newer than 6.4, as the reaper prefs area won't show any text. AVLinux distro has a Reaper demo and wine 6.2 preinstalled, which would help you test things. The iso can be burned on a dvd or use
rufus usb utility from windows or other utility that put's iso's on a bootable usbstick.

AVLinux: www.bandshed.net/avlinux

https://rufus.ie/en_US/

Cheers

In the Video it does not seem to feature yabridge

-Michael

[robbert-vdh]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

Currently I'm running WINE 6.10 and Kontakt, Superior Drummer 2, Arturia MiniMoog V, and some other Windows plugins I still use all work. If those break at some point, I'll downgrade.

Kontakt and a couple of other plugins were consistently crashing on me on shutdown with Wine (Staging) 6.10/6.11 and I've heard similar reports from others, but after trying it again for like the seventh time that now mysteriously doesn't seem to happen anymore. So something's clearly broken, but I also don't know what's going on anymore!

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by robbert-vdh

Kontakt and a couple of other plugins were consistently crashing on me on shutdown with Wine (Staging) 6.10/6.11 and I've heard similar reports from others, but after trying it again for like the seventh time that now mysteriously doesn't seem to happen anymore. So something's clearly broken, but I also don't know what's going on anymore!

I have not seen any kind of anomalies so far, but I don't load gargantuan libraries in Kontakt either. I only use the Factory Library to compliment the real instruments that comprise the bulk of my projects.

If I do start experiencing brokenness, I will certainly be fixing it then, but for now my experience has been that it's not broke for me and the way I use Windows plugins running in WINE.

[mike@overtonedsp]

Originally Posted by robbert-vdh

Kontakt and a couple of other plugins were consistently crashing on me on shutdown with Wine (Staging) 6.10/6.11 and I've heard similar reports from others, but after trying it again for like the seventh time that now mysteriously doesn't seem to happen anymore. So something's clearly broken, but I also don't know what's going on anymore!

Back around 2006 IIRC I first started trying to run Windows VSTs on Linux (as part of a potential commercial project which was never released) - I wrote something akin to yabridge, I got it working, but, it was never completely stable. It's a continual process of chasing your tail trying to fix bugs with this or that plug-in, and then a new Wine version gets released and more hacks and fixes are necessary to fix all the regressions. I don't mean to be critical, because clearly Yabridge is a great achievement which many will find useful, and I wish you luck with it - but I would caution that the best operating system to run Windows binaries is, and remains - Windows. Surely what we should all be aiming for is greater adoption of native Linux plug-ins (by users and developers)?

Just some thoughts from someone who's been through all this before and to whom all the issues, 15 years later, seem horribly familiar. Good luck (and I suspect you will need it...)

[Held]

Originally Posted by mike@overtonedsp

Surely what we should all be aiming for is greater adoption of native Linux plug-ins (by users and developers)?

Sure, but until then, I can run my favorite plugins on my favorite OS thanks to Robbert's amazing work.

It's fine that you don't want to bother, but why discourage those who do? What are you trying to achieve by cautioning against using Windows plugins on Linux?

Even through Wine, I'm having a better experience with MeldaProduction plugins than all native Linux plugins I've tried.

And I'm having a better time on Linux than I could ever have on Windows. Why would I give that up because "the best operating system to run Windows binaries is, and remains - Windows." That makes no sense to me.

[mike@overtonedsp]

It's fine that you don't want to bother, but why discourage those who do? What are you trying to achieve by cautioning against using Windows plugins on Linux?

I'm not trying to discourage anyone - as I mentioned in my original comment, but I had all the problems I see here, 15 years ago, and the reasons for that then are the same reasons for it now. The cautionary tale is that the extra (and largely opaque) compatibility layers involved mean that, while you might expect a Windows plug-in to have been developed (and tested) on Windows quite robustly, when using compatibility bridges its not always possible to be certain that what appears to work actually works because it works, and not just by (fortunate) accident. In my experience a lot of what appeared to work was not robustly deterministic - and so you might load up the same session / plugins a week later and find it crashed for a completely unfathomable reason (given that by its very nature you are dealing with a closed source binary for a completely different operating system).

It's fine that you don't want to bother,

Its not that I don't want to bother, I've been 'bothering' with Linux for the last decade or more, I actually want to drive greater adoption of Linux - I'm a Linux user and Linux plug-in developer myself. I'm just saying be aware of the limitations of depending upon this as a solution

[robbert-vdh]

Originally Posted by mike@overtonedsp

Back around 2006 IIRC I first started trying to run Windows VSTs on Linux (as part of a potential commercial project which was never released) - I wrote something akin to yabridge, I got it working, but, it was never completely stable. It's a continual process of chasing your tail trying to fix bugs with this or that plug-in, and then a new Wine version gets released and more hacks and fixes are necessary to fix all the regressions. I don't mean to be critical, because clearly Yabridge is a great achievement which many will find useful, and I wish you luck with it - but I would caution that the best operating system to run Windows binaries is, and remains - Windows. Surely what we should all be aiming for is greater adoption of native Linux plug-ins (by users and developers)?

Just some thoughts from someone who's been through all this before and to whom all the issues, 15 years later, seem horribly familiar. Good luck (and I suspect you will need it...)

Wine's come a long way in the last fifteen years! Or, well, mostly in the last three years. The thing that set off these developments was the release of DXVK three years ago, which was a D3D10.1/D3D11 (and nowadays also D3D9 and D3D10) implementation in Vulkan. That basically came out of nowhere, and it allowed video games to be played under Wine that would never even run under Wine with its own WineD3D implementation, and sometimes even with a negligible performance hit. That set off a chain of events, with the most important one being the introduction of Proton by Valve. Proton was part of Valve's Steam Play reboot, which meant that you could now suddenly run Windows video games in the Linux Steam client by just launching them like any other game, and those games even integrated with the native Steamworks API like they would on Windows. While on its own this may not mean much, Valve has sponsored a lot of Wine development through their own development team (which now includes the original developer of DXVK), by hiring several contractors, and also by collaborating with CodeWavers, who are the main contributors to Wine. These developments have greatly increased both the compatibility (DXVK, VKD3D, lots of previously unimplemented Windows APIs) and the performance (esync, fsync, fastsync, ntsync) of Wine in the last few years.

And while in an ideal world Wine would not be necessary, right now it functions sort of as a bridge for Linux adoption. Lots of people are interested in running Linux, but they may also want to use certain applications (and in the context of music production, plugins) that simply aren't available for Linux yet. And the main reason they aren't available for Linux is that barely anyone uses Linux on the desktop. Having robust tools available to use software like that on Linux can make the difference between a curious person wanting to give Linux a try and them avoiding Linux entirely. And it of course also means there are more toys to play with on Linux for those who want to get their hands dirty. Once the number of Linux users grows, the larger developers will surely also take notice and we will no longer need things things like Wine, but until that time comes this gives us the best of both worlds.

Those fifteen years probably made a big difference. Wine's been rock solid for me during development, and I'm very happy with how well yabridge works now. Using plugins through yabridge really does feel like using any other native plugin, and with the upcoming yabridge 3.4.0 I could measure a consistent 12-20 microsecond DSP load overhead added by yabridge (on top of the actual Windows plugin's audio processing) depending on the buffer size, so performance is also pretty good. (I could do even more optimization work after the audio processing rewrite I did for the next version, but the current approach strikes a nice balance between flexibility and performance)

[Held]

Originally Posted by mike@overtonedsp

and so you might load up the same session / plugins a week later and find it crashed for a completely unfathomable reason (given that by its very nature you are dealing with a closed source binary for a completely different operating system).

So far my experience has been that plugins which worked once keep working. (Except for the occasional Wine update, but it's super easy do downgrade and everything works again.)

I think copy protection and dongles are way more unpredictable than Wine. Fortunately, most also don't work with Wine, so I can resist the tempting Waves and iLok plugins much more easily

Like Robbert said, Wine has come a loooong way. It's not perfect, but it's the best option for me.

The main selling point for me for native plugins would be drag and drop support, but that doesn't even work in REAPER (see my signature).

Originally Posted by mike@overtonedsp

I actually want to drive greater adoption of Linux - I'm a Linux user and Linux plug-in developer myself.

And what's more convincing to a developer than a bunch of paying customers asking for a Linux version?

[krahosk]

Thank you for the replies.
So a short answer, With Linux-native Reaper and VST2 and VST3 plugins with yabridge I still need Wine, yes?

[Glennbo]

Originally Posted by krahosk

Thank you for the relies.
So a short answer, With Linux-native Reaper and VST2 and VST3 plugins with yabridge I still need Wine, yes?

Yes. You install your Windows plugins in WINE, and then Yabridge builds links to them that REAPER for Linux sees as Linux plugins.

[krahosk]

Originally Posted by Glennbo

Yes. You install your Windows plugins in WINE, and then Yabridge builds links to them that REAPER for Linux sees as Linux plugins.

Thank you :-)

[krahosk]

I forgot that I'm not set yet, I have to make my Scarlett 2i2 interface work also. And there's my monitor which outputs at more than 60HZ, I don't want to lose that feature on Linux either.

[JamesPeters]

2i2, all 3 generations, work well in Linux.

Your monitor should work well too.

Try a live USB of a distro if you're in doubt.

[krahosk]

Thank you, James. I'm still new to the idea of switching to Linux. Which distro would you recommend?

[JamesPeters]

I use Manjaro and it's what I recommend. You can search my posts and see that I have discussed it a lot on this forum. It's very up-to-date for its software and kernel, and has lots of software in the repos.

Read this in particular, about setting up a distro for low-latency audio use:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....11#post2349311

There are only a few things that need to be done, and they're basically the same things you'd be changing in other OSes (but Linux has different ways of adjusting these things).

[krahosk]

I was looking for documentation and I read on Manjaro just before reading your reply. Thank you for the further reading, I still need to familiarize myself with some important details before I commit to Linux.
EDIT: is that an important setting to adjust as well?
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....66#post2430966

[JamesPeters]

He mentions some things that I mentioned, so yes. We accomplish them in slightly different ways but you'll notice it's the same thing I said. The few things I mentioned: they're critical for really good performance. The rest is questionable, and it depends on exactly what you're doing with the system.

About the realtime privileges: I didn't notice a difference but I do it anyway now. I install "realtime-privileges" package (from Pamac aka "Add/Remove Software"), then add my user to the "realtime" group using the User Accounts application. It's easier than the other way (less manual file editing, more "clicking on things").

As for that version of Wine, yes I'd recommend it too (and staying with version 6.4 at the moment since later versions cause issues in some plugins). As for the specific Wine tweaks like fsync: I didn't notice a difference, but it's easy enough to do (in Manjaro KDE the file you have to edit is called ".bash_profile" though).

[krahosk]

Thank you again, your replies are much appreciated. A bit of logistics for the next few days in order to make Linux possible soon on my computer. Can't wait. :-)

[4duhwinnn]

Originally Posted by mschnell

In the Video it does not seem to feature yabridge

-Michael

Yabridge is quite simple to install and use, like linvst, some of the unarchived files go in /usr/bin, and others in your /home/usr/share/yabridge folder, and it and doesn't seem to need extra dependencies on the various distros I've tried it on. Robert's long informative posts bely the simplicity of actual use. You issue one command for each folder of plugins you want wrapped, and then one command that does all the wrapping in one fell swoop.
Cheers

[robbert-vdh]

Originally Posted by 4duhwinnn

Yabridge is quite simple to install and use, like linvst, some of the unarchived files go in /usr/bin, and others in your /home/usr/share/yabridge folder, and it and doesn't seem to need extra dependencies on the various distros I've tried it on. Robert's long informative posts bely the simplicity of actual use. You issue one command for each folder of plugins you want wrapped, and then one command that does all the wrapping in one fell swoop.
Cheers

Just to avoid some potential confusion, you're not supposed to manually place any files in /usr/bin or anywhere else outside of your home directory! I made sure that if you're not installing yabridge through a package manager, you don't need any elevated permissions to use it so you also can't accidentally break things on your system.

[krahosk]

Still learning without any hands-on experience with Linux, I still have many questions. Like, the only thing I have to install is Jack to make my 2i2 work?

[JamesPeters]

Jack is only needed for connecting multiple audio devices and/or multiple applications together. If you're just using a device in Reaper, use ALSA. It's simpler, more direct, and lower latency. ALSA is there by default.

BTW I'm probably switching back to Manjaro XFCE. I've noticed with KDE my CPU fan has been throttling a lot more often when opening applications or browser tabs for some sites, which doesn't happen in XFCE that I remember. It's no cause for alarm since it's only one of my CPU cores that spikes for several seconds, but I find it a bit annoying. I like my computer to be as silent as possible.

[krahosk]

The difference between XFCE and KDE is that the former is Unix-style and has less configurations for the GUI? What about Manjaro Cinnamon?
https://manjaro.org/downloads/community/cinnamon/
The difference is that it has more bells and whistles GUI-wise? I know I'd have to try them to know, utlimately.
Then I just realized that I can partition my main PC to try out Manjaro. It will facilitate and accelerate my migration. :-)

[JamesPeters]

You'll have to try each one to decide which you prefer. It's more of a personal thing. All of them are fine. All of them have plenty of configuration for the desktop environment, but the way you do it is a bit different in each. KDE has the best settings manager and some more modern touches, but I find myself changing the look to be the same no matter what DE I use.

Remember you can boot a live ISO of each distro on a USB flash drive to test the interface and see which you prefer.