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Old 06-14-2018, 10:55 AM   #1
Nonlinear
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Default v5.91 - "Gluing" items messes up timing (SOLVED)

Ugh - stumbled upon another problem this morning that is a big one. "Gluing" a selection of audio items is shifting their position on the timeline.

If you are not paying attention this could really mess up your project!

Top track is Vocals with edits before glue. Bottom track is same track duplicated and "glued". Note the timing shift. Rendering as a new Take does the same thing.


Last edited by Nonlinear; 06-18-2018 at 10:34 PM.
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Old 06-14-2018, 11:08 AM   #2
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i bet it's the fx' used on the unglued items.
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Old 06-14-2018, 12:08 PM   #3
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i bet it's the fx' used on the unglued items.
Maybe, but I need to use these FX and they work fine everywhere else.

Also note that the rendered track is shifted FORWARD in time. If this was a plugin problem I would think the timing would be late rather than early.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:06 AM   #4
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it may depend on the fx you used.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:21 AM   #5
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ello- plugin delay compensation in action perhaps.
what do you mean by >"they work fine everywhere else." <?
by media label_ reagate at least was used,and that will create a delay i believe which is getting compensation?
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:26 AM   #6
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ello- plugin delay compensation in action perhaps.
what do you mean by >"they work fine everywhere else." <?
by media label_ reagate at least was used,and that will create a delay i believe which is getting compensation?
Plugin delay "compensation" is supposed to PREVENT timing misalignment caused by plugin processing.

But I suspect that is a factor here. Seems it's being OVERCOMPENSATED.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:40 AM   #7
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could you just list the plugins your using and what reaper sees for pdc?

Have you tried narrowing down to a single plugin?
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Old 06-15-2018, 11:08 AM   #8
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could you just list the plugins your using and what reaper sees for pdc?

Have you tried narrowing down to a single plugin?
Yes, the problem seems to be with Plugin Delay Compensation - it's not working right on some "Take" FX. Seems to be overcompensating.

In these clips I'm using a high pass filter called VHL-3C from Black Rooster Labs, Waves Tune and ReaGate - all well established and reputable plugins.

I did narrow the problem down to Waves Tune. When removed the track "Glues" correctly. This plugin works fine when used as a track FX but it seems PDC is OVERCOMPENSATING when used as a "Take FX". Somehow the multiple instances of Waves Tune used in the separate clips is over-reporting PDC to/from Reaper.

Now that I'm aware this can be "worked around" but is not right. PDC should be taking care of this.
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:30 PM   #9
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Let's keep trying to narrow this down so the devs know exactly what to fix.

is the amount of PDC reported in the fx chain equal to the negative offset in the rendered file?

Does changing the audio device buffer size make any change?

Does the same problem happen with other plugins?

In preferences is "inform plugins of offline render state" enabled?

Maybe another user with Waves Tune can confirm.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:05 PM   #10
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yus--> goto resource monitoring and check the exact amount of total samples pdc-- then reacheck that # against the glue recording offset your seeing--they should kinda match 1 way or the other..
then try the exact same chain but as input+ then normal track fx... the amounts may be varying so your job is to check i guess + then reaport them figues for devs if it's a 'bug'...?

tbh> do not think take fx ever made correct pdc..but rarely actually check stuff unless it's completely obvious as your seeing...i just trim n get on with edits,if needed.

does pdc only compensate between track or channels also?..some of who only knows.
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicSounds View Post
Let's keep trying to narrow this down so the devs know exactly what to fix.

is the amount of PDC reported in the fx chain equal to the negative offset in the rendered file?

Does changing the audio device buffer size make any change?

Does the same problem happen with other plugins?

In preferences is "inform plugins of offline render state" enabled?

Maybe another user with Waves Tune can confirm.
According to Performance Meter every track in the project that has FX on it is reporting the exact same PDC. THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT! These tracks have DIFFERENT FX on them PLUS the vocal track has Take FX in addition to track FX. It seems the Take FX have no effect on PDC - or it is being tracked somewhere else behind the scenes.

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Old 06-16-2018, 10:23 AM   #12
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It seems the Take FX have no effect on PDC - or it is being tracked somewhere else behind the scenes.

^yus--noticed that long ago,but try not to complain :/
also notice reawire has 0=but then that seems fairly logical if* audio is processed only by reaper...>?
the thing with reaper is lack of documentation on such trivial things that actually do matter to some a lot.

this lack of information as to what certain params or actions are supposed to be doing is quite unclear and uncut @ this time..
manual method is still where it's @ a lot of the time as automatics or robotics can fookup real easy without reason or logical explainations..

so what can be done about that?-- well,quite a bit actually. =)
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Old 06-16-2018, 11:45 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Nonlinear View Post
According to Performance Meter every track in the project that has FX on it is reporting the exact same PDC. THAT CAN'T BE RIGHT! These tracks have DIFFERENT FX on them PLUS the vocal track has Take FX in addition to track FX. It seems the Take FX have no effect on PDC - or it is being tracked somewhere else behind the scenes.

show the fx chain for the item.

no need to shout, we're just gathering information for your bug report.
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Old 06-16-2018, 03:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicSounds View Post
show the fx chain for the item.

no need to shout, we're just gathering information for your bug report.
I told you what the FX chain is for the item above and it’s also shown in my first screenshot - what else do you need? I don’t see any PDC report for Take FX - if there is one please advise how.

I wasn’t shouting - I was emphasizing.
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Old 06-16-2018, 04:25 PM   #15
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Performance meter does not show take fx.
click the green FX icon on the take
Look at the bottom.



is the number reported the same as the offset in the rendered item?

Can you find another plugin that renders with the same problem?

I just tried a few and am not seeing what you are
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Old 06-17-2018, 10:56 AM   #16
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This is even more complicated - and messed up - than I thought.

Track FX is showing PDC of 3072/3753 and the Glued track is shifted forward in time by ~3072 samples. So it appears the PDC being applied is 2x what it should be for this plugin as a Take FX.

I tried several other plugins that require PDC and they all rendered correctly as Take FX. So it appears this issue is with Waves plugins and perhaps only Waves Tune. (None of my other Waves plugins require PDC so I can't use them to test if this is a "Waves" issue).

Now, when I RENDER the track as a stem and import it back into the project the timing is off by only ~216 samples (again forward in time). That's better but still not right.

Now the kicker - when I use this same plugin as a Track FX (and not as a Take FX) it renders perfectly in time!

So, why does it GLUE in one position and RENDER in another - both wrong as Take FX - but render CORRECT as a Track FX? That, IMHO, indicates a problem in Reaper.

Waves offers time-limited demos of their plugins. As "Tune" is a very popular plugin, and Waves a very popular brand, I suggest someone at Cockos check this out. Whatever the problem is here may be affecting other plugins/brands that we don't know about.

Last edited by Nonlinear; 06-17-2018 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 06-17-2018, 11:41 AM   #17
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Have you checked that you can stable reproduce it with one track project, one instance of the plug-in without "playing" with its settings?

I ask since I had strange shift on glue with CW EQ LP plug-in as take FX. But I could not reproduce that later.
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Old 06-17-2018, 12:13 PM   #18
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Have you checked that you can stable reproduce it with one track project, one instance of the plug-in without "playing" with its settings?
Yes. Just tried it on a new project with only 1 track and it does the same thing. It is repeatable.
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Old 06-18-2018, 10:05 PM   #19
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FYI - been searching for the cause/solution and found it. It is NOT a bug in Waves Tune or Reaper - it is a setting buried in Reaper's options, "Inform Plug-ins of offline rendering state". Should be CHECKED.

Not sure why this was turned off or why it should ever be turned off. Apparently required by some plugins to render properly.



Last edited by Nonlinear; 06-18-2018 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 06-19-2018, 01:18 AM   #20
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lol- dude how could you miss that 1!? =it's soooo obvious >right?
the thing with reaper,is most stuff is not sooo obvious..buried,hidden,waiting..lurking.. stuff just ready to either trip-you-up,or making 1 do mental backflips of happiness. =)
confusing,to say the very least-
happy/sad\happy\sad/happy.uhhrrrk.
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:32 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonlinear View Post
Not sure why this was turned off or why it should ever be turned off. Apparently required by some plugins to render properly.
Maybe keep an eye on that setting, Hopefully REAPER isn't changing the setting on you! I've had that happen randomly with a setting after updating, Reported, fixed, no problem since.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=195776
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Old 06-19-2018, 08:12 PM   #22
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lol- dude how could you miss that 1!? =it's soooo obvious >right?
the thing with reaper,is most stuff is not sooo obvious..buried,hidden,waiting..lurking.. stuff just ready to either trip-you-up,or making 1 do mental backflips of happiness. =)
confusing,to say the very least-
happy/sad\happy\sad/happy.uhhrrrk.
I searched through the owner's manual and this option is not even discussed or explained. It just says, "You may need to experiment (with these settings) to get the best results".

Being able to tweak themes and custom actions is great. Fussing for hours to get the core DAW to work right is NOT.
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