Old 12-11-2017, 09:45 AM   #1
mschuster
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Default VU / track peak question

So I subscribe to this guy - and watched this video today about 'finding that sweet spot' for plugins. https://www.recordingrevolution.com/...io-sweet-spot/

In this video he talks about grabbing a VU meter, placing it on your track and making sure the level hits around 0 VU (which should translate to -18dbfs). So I gave it a try on one of my guitar DI tracks. I verified the VU meter I'm using (TBproAUDIO) is calibrated to -18dbfs and pressed play. My signal, which should be PRE-FADER - is a bit hot - hovering around -12 and peaking up around -6. What's odd - and thus my question - is the VU meter does not approach 0 until the track meter hits -6. According to everything I've read - it should be way over 0 on the VU meter since I'm way above -18 (0 VU). So on my setup, it appears -6dbfs = 0 VU. What am I missing??

I've searched for an hour and have found several topics close, but nothing that addresses this specifically. I'm also wondering how most people have their MASTER VU SETTINGs set on their master track.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:17 AM   #2
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Well firstly.. VU reacts much slower so your DI guitar transient may be well above 0vu but not registering on VU. Secondly, I believe Reaper meters are peak meters so even with steady tone they do not match up to VU.

And if your tracks are measuring -12 to -6VU what is your master bus measuring?
I wonder if too hot a level is adding to the clipping you're experiencing in the other thread.
That plug as an analogue model will likely also want to see around -18.
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:25 AM   #3
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Agreed on the characteristics of a VU meter, but with that fundamental formula (-18dbfs = 0 VU), i would expect the VU meter to be way over 0 given how hot my track is displaying. It's not. Nowhere near 0. And again, I've read the manual for my VU METER and it is calibrated to -18dbfs for 0 VU.

The master track VU reading is actually 3 to 4 db lower than the track, which even confuses things more. The VU meter is the only plug on the master. I would think they should be the same! I'm guessing this has something to do with my VU MASTER SETTINGS on the master track and I'll have to research this a little more today.

I don't believe this has any bearing on the other question I posed. I can take the Shattered Glass plug off the master and see a fairly normal wav when rendering - full of peaks, etc.
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:04 AM   #4
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Again Reapers own meters are a peak meter....you shouldn't be trying to make any sense of how they match to a VU.

If the VU on the master is lower than on tracks then you may just be seeing pan law in action.

And I wasn't suggesting that your master would clip without the plugin.....but the plugin may be clipping internally more than intended if you are feeding it a hot signal.
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Old 12-11-2017, 11:50 AM   #5
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Quote:
In this video he talks about grabbing a VU meter, placing it on your track and making sure the level hits around 0 VU (which should translate to -18dbfs).
People use these as an RMS type meter. The calibration is there for setting to whatever RMS value you want to read as zero on the VU meter. That's really the extent of it's use. I don't see much value using it on individual tracks most of the time just so you can make them -18dbFS, *if they aren't peaking they are generally fine.

There does seem to be a small fad right now were everyone is placing them on their master buss then setting the calibration to match the RMS value they are targeting - it's an easy way to judge dynamic range/crest factor - in other words if we assume the highest peaks are near zero dbFS and you calibrate the meter to -12 dbFS, then when it is hovering around zero dbVU you have roughly 12 dB of dynamic range to use the term loosely.

You may also want to set their peak value to close to zero (Vumt for example uses -6 dbFS as the point where it shows clipping by default which may not be what is needed) as well then all you care about is getting the needle's average position to hover around zero.

*As far as getting your guitar track at -18dbFS it's not required honestly, there may be some value if you want to know what some preset in some SIM was intended to sound like (aka the SIM expects -18 RMS dBFS) but I'm pretty sure all of us just adjust the SIM until it sounds like we want it to which removes that need entirely other than academic interest.
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Old 12-11-2017, 04:50 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Stella645 View Post
Again Reapers own meters are a peak meter....you shouldn't be trying to make any sense of how they match to a VU.
I am aware the track meter is PEAK. If you watch the video above my question will make more sense. A lot of people use VU meters in conjunction with Reaper meters to get better mixes. I'm hoping to do the same.

Quote:
If the VU on the master is lower than on tracks then you may just be seeing pan law in action.
Good pt! This did not occur to me, but may very well be the reason.

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Originally Posted by karbomusic
*As far as getting your guitar track at -18dbFS it's not required honestly, there may be some value if you want to know what some preset in some SIM was intended to sound like (aka the SIM expects -18 RMS dBFS) but I'm pretty sure all of us just adjust the SIM until it sounds like we want it to which removes that need entirely other than academic interest.
You may be right, but according to the video above, getting it as close to -18 (a.k.a. "the sweetspot") does make a difference to the plugs. I was in the process of exploring that today when I noticed the VU meter's didn't match up with the track's -18. I'll have to give this another go later this week. Thanks for your input.
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Old 12-11-2017, 04:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by mschuster View Post

You may be right, but according to the video above, getting it as close to -18 (a.k.a. "the sweetspot") does make a difference to the plugs. I was in the process of exploring that today when I noticed the VU meter's didn't match up with the track's -18. I'll have to give this another go later this week. Thanks for your input.
Unless it is a plugin that simulates something like analog saturation, it doesn't make a bit of difference (or as I hinted before, a plugin or compressor has a gain dependent "preset") otherwise it will not matter. -18 dbFS is simply a technical reference point, only because when the manufacturer makes a sound card they have to decide where analog zero falls, and that has to be below digital zero because analog can go over zero. Some but certainly not all choose roughly -18 but they could have chose any number that is sufficiently below 0 dBFS to handle peaks.

Because plugin developers are aware of that reference point, "if" the plugin is modeling some analog property (like saturation) -18 is probably closest to what they intended you to hear for preset X but again, ears matter and you'd just adjust it's input gain whathaveyou until it sounds right anyway which bypasses all of this.
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:27 PM   #8
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I checked out Graham's video, he says exactly what I do "plugins that emulate analog" but he waits till almost 3 minutes in before he mentions plugins and infers up until then the well-known -18 dbFS myth. He implies/says that that running hot after the fact hurts the sound, it doesn't. Then he makes the plugin comment.

I also disagree that "most plugins emulate analog" in a fashion where the gain affects it, either he is trying to be so simple that he is conflating the true parts with the myth parts in his wording, or he really doesn't know the whole story - I want to think it is the former and just unfortunate wording.

There is value to teaching a newb who is going to have no choice but to use presets and are oblivious to the fact that if they load a compressor preset, that they can just move the dang threshold control; but that's different than eluding that setting all your tracks to -18dbFS suddenly makes all your plugins sound better, it doesn't.

I think he does great usually, especially for beginners but the way he explains some of this, is terrible, sorry.
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:36 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post

I think he does great usually, especially for beginners but the way he explains some of this, is terrible, sorry.
No need to apologize. I usually take most of what he says with a grain of salt. I've been watching his vids for years now. Some I skip, some I watch. This one caught my eye because I've heard other engineers talk about it.

You sound like you have a serious electronic background?
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:48 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by mschuster View Post

You sound like you have a serious electronic background?
Nothing official, I do sort of straddle programming and analog and build/design the occasional stompbox or preamp and build some IoT stuff - then of course recording and playing etc. It's more though that there is a long-standing myth about -18dbFS and it's difficult to get everyone on the same page. Ironically, I argue in his defense when it comes to using that method with beginners, it was just some of the wording implies stuff about the myth. I can't give him too hard a time, hats off for helping people out!
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:18 PM   #11
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I also heard about plugin VST sweet spot. Or was it the don't go there spot (e.g. to hot signals?). Maybe both.

I try to get the signal around -18 to -6db into a plugin. This is rather personal.

BUT I can say that Modern Seventh Sign from Antress does better when both nobs (input and output) are dead center when the compression needle starts to move. Then you can compress to you liking. If the signal comes in to hot you need to crank the input nob way down and it seems to impact the compression. So I put a JS/Volume in front and adjust to hit the sweet spot.

https://rekkerd.org/antress-updates-...gins-to-v4-05/

I'd do this for other plugin too; try to get a minimal response when nobs are near neutral. Then I go for it.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:32 PM   #12
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I put a VU meter from Waves as the first plugin on my master. It gives me a quick look to see if I'm pushing the mix too hot there. It seems to help me but I'm used to VU's bouncing around for a lot of years.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by mschuster View Post
I am aware the track meter is PEAK. If you watch the video above my question will make more sense. A lot of people use VU meters in conjunction with Reaper meters to get better mixes. I'm hoping to do the same
With all due respect I don't need to watch your video for this to make sense, i know how to gain stage in the DAW and what you're trying to do.
I've simply told you the reason(s) your Reaper meter isn't giving you the result you expect to see compared to your VU meter.
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Old 12-12-2017, 07:12 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by tgraph View Post
I put a VU meter from Waves as the first plugin on my master. It gives me a quick look to see if I'm pushing the mix too hot there. It seems to help me but I'm used to VU's bouncing around for a lot of years.
Hey T... good to see you around! I agree, there is some value in having a VU meter handy at mix-down!
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