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Old 11-05-2018, 10:51 PM   #81
mschnell
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I asked Roli support and got this answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLI supprot
The Glide dimension of touch allows for smooth legato playing through intelligent Glide tracking and the ability to have different notes occurring on separate MIDI notes. You can find more information on using the Seaboard RISE & GRAND with SWAM Engine here.
They provided these links:
dimension of touch -> https://support.roli.com/support/sol...t-is-5d-touch-
ROLI & SWAM -> You can find more information on using the Seaboard RISE & GRAND with SWAM Engine here.

Seemingly the Seaboard in fact does use a player's intention detecting algorithm called"intelligent Glide tracking". I guess a gesture such as a short glide in the appropriate direction followed by a key hit same pointed to and not too far might be used to detect a non-portamento legato (even tough the link below simply states: "Glide is transmitted as MIDI pitch bend" , which is not "intelligent" at all).
I'll investigate ....

I also asked about how to remote control the Seaboard parameters via Midi, but no answer yet,

-Michael
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Last edited by mschnell; 11-05-2018 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 11-06-2018, 09:28 AM   #82
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I think you're reading far too much into a buzzword there. I can say with confidence that the Blocks don't do anything like you describe and doubt that Rise will. Glide is translated to pitch pretty much directly, except that with Glide sensitivity less than maximum it will correct the pitch when it "thinks" that you stop the Glide movement, it sort of bends it to the nearest straight semitone.
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Old 11-06-2018, 02:56 PM   #83
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Hmmm. Obviously, some magic needs to be going on making legato with multiple voices possible, as we do see in several videos.

I also asked in the SWAM (Audio Modeling) forum, as they do support Rise out of the box by providing a default "Seaboard" parameter setting that can be loaded.

They say it works nice, but legato is a lot less easy to do than with a hard keyboard and needs some dedicated playing practice, and doing trills is really challenging. But the problem, they describe is about Expression (Mapped from Channel Pressure). Here of course finding the right pressure with the target key is not easy. I'll ask more about the latency detection.

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Old 11-06-2018, 10:40 PM   #84
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I am not certain we see multi-voice legato lines in the saxophone video. Without having listened again, I remember that multiple voices always come in chords and legato as a single line. They might use some time based processing, where notes that come in simultaneously (enough) are distributed to channels per note and when there is more time between notes they all go to the same channel. It is for sure not available in the box with Blocks, and very likely not with Rise, too. If that is what's happening, then by some additional in-line processing.

Re the pressure problem: Out of the box pressure will always ramp up from zero as you hit a new note. I don't find it that problematic with SWAM, but with some Kontakt instruments expression ramps up much more noticeably, so that the attack phase is suppressed far too much. maybe these instruments use a smoothing algorithm for expression that additionally slows down the ramp?
In my script I use a parameter to alter the slope of the pressure values, pivoting around value 127. It basically raises the minimum pressure value, so that I can make pressure not start at zero. I control the parameter with an expression pedal.
Not only does it make the problematic instruments much more playable and may ease playing thrills with SWAM, but it's also nice to have the additional control with Equator and the like.

Last edited by gofer; 11-06-2018 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:25 PM   #85
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Did you check "PolyThru" -> https://www.strumentimusicali.net/ma...ndstage-en.pdf

Roli seems to provide some kind of pluging that leverages MPE for use with non MPE plugins.

-Michael
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Old 11-09-2018, 02:42 PM   #86
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I am using Windows. Also, I can't find any recent info on that program at all. Did it ever get out of beta?
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Old 11-09-2018, 04:22 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
I can't find any recent info on that program at all.
Neither could I. That is why I asked. In fact I already did a JSFX that leverages MPE to a single channel and averages the three continuous per-key controls (Pitchbend, Channel-Pressure, CC74-Slide) for all "running" channels, to make standard polyphonic sound engines work nicely on MPE streams. I suppose this is what "PolyThru" would do.

Unfortunately I can't test it before I get a Seaboard .

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Old 11-10-2018, 01:02 AM   #88
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If PolyThru isn't mentioned in a recent Rise manual I think we can safely say it has been put on the back burner, or discontinued.
Any info I could find hints at PolyThru being a sort of Vst host which automatically holds multiple instances of the instrument you choose and links their parameters, so it's enough to tweak only one of the instances. Basically what the OP is about. I can't find any hint towards channel reduction and handling of control data for single channel usage.

Re your JSFX:
While I can imagine taking the average may be good for Press and Slide data, I think it's not ideal for Glide. It's a Seaboard paradigm that the keywave you glide to determins the target pitch. When using average pitch you'd always have to glide all active notes to get this behavior. If you for example have two notes running and glide only one of them, then the pitch bend will amount to half of the distance you are gliding, which I'd probably find unintuitive (glide two semitones up on the board amounts to pitch only raising a single semitone).

I'd suppose taking the maximum current pitch value would be better. That way you'd also benefit from the "quantization" of the target pitch that happens on Seaboards.
Thinking about it, the "quantization" may have an unfavourable effect on averaged pitch data, too.
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Old 11-10-2018, 02:04 AM   #89
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Of course the JSFX is configurable on which controls are averaged (up to three: of any CC, Pitch-Bend, and Channel-Pressure).

Making max / min / average configurable seems like a good idea ! I will implement this. (But it might trigger involuntarily harsher jumps than average.)

Regarding slide: if you play a chord and move a finger just very slightly, this value will be the last and hence in a not preprocessed channel merger will be used for all pressed notes. This will force crazy jumps. I don't think that is decently playable. But as said not processing a control already can be configured.

What do you mean by quantization ?

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Old 11-10-2018, 02:37 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Of course the JSFX is configurable on which controls are averaged (up to three: of any CC, Pitch-Bend, and Channel-Pressure).

Making max / min / average configurable seems like a good idea ! I will implement this. (But it might trigger involuntarily harsher jumps than average.)

Regarding slide: if you play a chord and move a finger just very slightly, this value will be the last and hence in a not preprocessed channel merger will be used for all pressed notes. This will force crazy jumps. I don't think that is decently playable. But as said not processing a control already can be configured.
Seaboard sends Slide reset messages in front of every new note you play (on the same tick, but before the note-on message). I am using max in my script and it plays nicely. As I mentioned before, the only situation I get any considerable value jump is when I play multiple notes and one of them has a considerably higher Slide value than all the others and I stop playing that particular note. In that case the output value will jump back to the value the other notes are using.

No value jumping in that situation with Press, because lifting the finger off a key will gradually lower the pressure value towards zero.


[EDIT] Coming to think of it, I actually have a hunch that the Slide reset messages will cause jumps when taking the average value, while they are filtered when taking max (until all notes are stopped and a new one is coming in). If you choose to take min, then evey new note will make the Slide value jump down to zero. Similar weirdness will probably occur with pressure (it is also reset with new note). [/EDIT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
What do you mean by quantization ?

-Michael
When you set the Glide sensitivity to lower than maximum, Seaboard will round the pitch value towards a straight - properly pitched - semitone when it "thinks" that your Glide gesture is coming to an end. The upside is that it's easy to glide to a straight target note. The downside is, that with low glide sensitivity slow glides can sound a bit "wavey", when the rounding happens faster than the actual Glide gesture.



Sorry for the rather heavy editing of this post... It's hard to put my thoughts into words.

Last edited by gofer; 11-10-2018 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:32 AM   #91
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Finally, I did order a Rise 49, so next week I will know more...
-Michael
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Old 11-29-2018, 08:40 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Finally, I did order a Rise 49, so next week I will know more...
-Michael
I hope you like it. It's awesome that dedicated people like you guys are into MPE instruments as I'll surely benefit from your ideas too

You mentioned earlier in this thread that you already made a plugin to force MPE to a single channel. Where can I get it? I considered doing something similar with a few plugins, but an all in one solution would be welcomed.

I just got an Artiphon, which also has some cool MPE capabilities. It's really sweet, but takes some getting used to. And I also had to reset my exceptions of what I wanted it to be and what it is, but then it turned out to be even better than I'd hoped for.

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Old 11-29-2018, 02:42 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiggerdyret View Post
You mentioned earlier in this thread that you already made a plugin to force MPE to a single channel. Where can I get it? I considered doing something similar with a few plugins, but an all in one solution would be welcomed.
Let me check out the Rise (and the plugin) during the weekend...

-Michael
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:24 AM   #94
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Cool, thanks.
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Old 12-02-2018, 07:19 AM   #95
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Seems to work. Please test and let me know what you find -> http://schnellphoto.de/MPE_2_1

(ReaPack compatible Description in the beginning of the code.)

-Michael
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Old 12-03-2018, 04:59 AM   #96
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So far it works like a charm. I'll post if issues arise.

Thanks
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Old 12-04-2018, 06:24 AM   #97
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Do you want me to add or modify anything, of should I commit it to ReaPack the way it is right now ?

Thanks,
-Michael
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Old 12-04-2018, 09:08 AM   #98
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It seems to work just like my midi controller does in Single Channel mode. But I haven't tested it thoroughly... I think it's good enough to upload.

What could be nice would be another plugin that sends midi channel 1 cc messages for mod Wheel, sustain pedal, breath, brightness and maybe a few other parameters to all other, bBasically all parameters that affect all voices at the same time. This would make all multi-channel software like Omnisphere or Kontakt MPE-compatible and still have the mod wheel affect all voices. And even if it isn't you could make separate tracks and make it MPE that way.

Roli might have this feature already, but Artiphon I1 doesn't. I did it myself by using "JS: Midi Note Filter" and then "JS: Midi CC Channel Router" on a separate track with a send to my instrument track. I could do without the extra track plus one plugin is better than two, and it could be a bit easier to setup

Edit: Here is my thread about the subject. Solger helped me out with the solution: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=213960

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Old 12-08-2018, 01:47 AM   #99
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Please find "MIDI MPE to single Channel" in ReaPack !

-Michael
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Old 12-08-2018, 03:05 AM   #100
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Yes, it was added to Reapack and works
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Old 01-09-2019, 05:02 AM   #101
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you guys ROCK, thanks for this! its great to be able to even monitor what the roli is outputting, and being able to taka an average etc is fantastic, thanks for the work.
do you think somehow being able to convert the non cc values like aftertouch and lift velocity to a usable CC could be incorporated into this? could be the all in one solution for ROLI REAPER heads!
anyway cheers!
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:38 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babyjaws View Post
do you think somehow being able to convert the non cc values like aftertouch and lift velocity to a usable CC could be incorporated into this? could be the all in one solution for ROLI REAPER heads!
anyway cheers!
"Midi convert to CC" also is available in ReaPack. (Bug: the second "Midi Message" selection of "Note On Velocity" should read "Note Off Velocity" )

Reaper Rocks !!!
-Michael
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Old 01-09-2019, 06:55 AM   #103
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BTW.: Regarding Glide:

Now that I do have a Rise 49, and use it in standard configuration (no tweaking by the Dashboard):

Hitting the Touchpad anywhere always creates a not shifted semitone (PitchBend zero).

Hitting a second spot does a glide when it is within a semitone distance, otherwise it starts a new note. Hence doing a decent trill is not possible in this setting even with the current version of "MIDI MPE to single Channel". I supposedly will try to enhance "MIDI MPE to single Channel" to detect a semitone hopping PitchBend and convert this to a note-on in "Mono" mode.

To do a glide of any width you can instead use a "natural" gesture with a single finger, but for a keyboarder that is rather uncommon and it's hampered by the "key" structure.

Alternatively I am still considering to try to send a "Dashboard" SysEx configuration message to the Rise when initiating a Patch change.

-Michael
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Old 01-10-2019, 06:54 AM   #104
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Edit:


Astonishingly, with some of the Equator stock sounds you can hit two adjacent semitones and get both notes (which would be good for trills).

I need to research if/how Equator sends this configuration change to the Rise.

-Michael
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Last edited by mschnell; 01-10-2019 at 01:43 PM.
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