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Old 05-04-2021, 07:32 AM   #1
beingmf
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Default ReaInsert + Monitoring FX = broken

Since I was getting totally off numbers when using "Ping detect" and manual offsets instead of "Automatic device latency adjustment" I investigated a little. My first thought was correct: as soon as Monitoring FX is bypassed (more on that below) I can achieve phase-correct compensation!

This is one of the projects in which it didn't work (but it likely doesn't matter en détail):
- buffer size 1024
- ReaInsert on channels 11-12 (send and return)
- Monitoring FX with inserts on 3-4 (Sienna 2 instances, PDC @2226) and on 15-16 (ARC3, PDC @37)

FX return was far too late, it added around 2800 samples on top of the "Automatic" setting.

So is it user error (I don't think so) or is it a bug (I hear it humming loudly)?
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Old 05-04-2021, 07:53 PM   #2
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Old 05-05-2021, 02:01 PM   #3
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Old 05-10-2021, 12:06 PM   #4
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Old 05-10-2021, 01:00 PM   #5
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What reaper version are you using and what plugins do you have on the monitoring fx?
If you can supply print screens it will be better for someone to help.

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Old 05-10-2021, 11:15 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepe44 View Post
If you can supply print screens it will be better for someone to help.
I actually did, but forgot to upload (got distracted by a dachshund on a turntable)! Thanks for chiming in - screens will be up in 15 minutes.
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Old 05-10-2021, 11:21 PM   #7
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What you see in the Licecap:

The outboard unit is in bypass, so no delay created on that side.
In the upper right corner have a look at the (un)bypass state of the MonitorFX.
The second ping - with MonitorFX bypassed @ 2323 samples - is the correct one.



Here's the PDC of the MonitorFX chain.
Of course no monitor plugin is interfering with the i/o in question (ADAT 2/3)!



(and don't worry, 5 of 11 FX plugins are in offline mode)
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Old 05-11-2021, 02:41 AM   #8
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Are you sure in Reaper preferences under the Audio - Recording you have the "use audio driver reported latency" enabled ?
i ran a quick test with some outboard and i dont have that reported latency changing. I always use the driver reported latency and in reainsert the automatic device latency adjustment enabled. So, i think there might be something else on your side that is causing the roundtrip to change values.

What Reaper version?
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Old 05-11-2021, 03:16 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepe44 View Post
Are you sure in Reaper preferences under the Audio - Recording you have the "use audio driver reported latency" enabled ?
i ran a quick test with some outboard and i dont have that reported latency changing. I always use the driver reported latency and in reainsert the automatic device latency adjustment enabled. So, i think there might be something else on your side that is causing the roundtrip to change values.

What Reaper version?
Thanks for checking! Yes, it is enabled, v is 6.25 (but it has been faulty before already).

What's in your Monitor FX chain?
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Old 05-11-2021, 05:31 AM   #10
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mostly analyzers, not much that can consume any PDC but i have made the test with some plugins that consume some PDC and the reported latency stays the same.
Do one thing, download reaper, make a portable install (on a different location on your hard drive) and make those tests again.
Maybe there is a buggy script or something running on startup.

PS: install latest Reaper version too. Its on 6.28 at the moment.
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Old 05-11-2021, 11:23 AM   #11
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Yes, good call! Will try and report back ‒ thanks again!!!
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Old 05-16-2021, 08:26 AM   #12
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So indeed, ping is correct in Reaper portable.

These are my startup scripts, not sure if any of them would confuse the delay compensation?

Code:
reaper.Main_OnCommand(reaper.NamedCommandLookup("_RSe245e22cd9b3948862e8f7b0d04e333b779becb5"), 0) --Run Folder-based item range selection
reaper.Main_OnCommand(reaper.NamedCommandLookup("_RS71c2e37efbbbcbf101ac5d39d387dc9f9bca0e03"), 0) --Run Folder-based item selection
reaper.Main_OnCommand(reaper.NamedCommandLookup("_RSe8b8e5597f39805d9413a15bdece7750d5e2365b"), 0) --Run Folder-based Non-contiguous Item Selection .lua
--[[reaper.Main_OnCommand(reaper.NamedCommandLookup("_RSbe259504561f6a52557d2d1c64e52ef13527bf17"), 0) --Reaticulate_Main.lua--]]
--[[reaper.Main_OnCommand(reaper.NamedCommandLookup("_RSa56f528da71df1121d11278b5befbaed37bc2785"), 0) --Run LinkZoomAndGrid--]]
reaper.Main_OnCommand(reaper.NamedCommandLookup("_RS67fdf22be642a98b636a7c6eadf233e63b831d46"), 0) --Run Retrospective Record (MIDI)

-- Begin Reaticulate startup stanza (don't edit this line)
local sep = package.config:sub(1, 1)
local script = debug.getinfo(1, 'S').source:sub(2)
local basedir = script:gsub('(.*)' .. sep .. '.*$', '%1')
dofile(basedir .. sep .. 'Reaticulate' .. sep .. 'actions' .. sep .. 'Reaticulate_Start.lua')
-- End Reaticulate startup stanza (don't edit this line)
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Old 05-24-2021, 04:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
So indeed, ping is correct in Reaper portable[/code]
I have a similar problem with Reainsert and running Reaper portable was not the solution on my projects - Did you get it working on existing projects or a new project (or both)?
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Old 05-25-2021, 12:19 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winfield View Post
Did you get it working on existing projects or a new project (or both)?
No, I need to bypass Monitoring FX first before I ping the outboard. Really annoying, I hope we find the error!
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Old 05-25-2021, 01:11 AM   #15
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Interesting that monitor effects perhaps have something to do with this.
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Old 05-25-2021, 04:32 AM   #16
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i also have these problems with the ping in reainsert, however nothing changed when trying it in a portable install.
(no monitoring fx, also when having my monitor fx bypassed in my regular reaper install nothing changed to the better)
WIN 10 Reaper 6.29 - testing done with a TRS cable from output directly to input.

the only thing that works right now for me is using RTL Utility (https://oblique-audio.com/rtl-utility.php),
measure the latency, and then setting the manual latency offset in preferences to that value.
which is so annoying(!)

One thing i don't understand is why the PDC reported value is so high for reainsert? see pic (from portable install)
Attached Images
File Type: png Skärmbild 2021-05-25 135229.png (30.7 KB, 98 views)

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Old 05-26-2021, 04:51 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by din_mentor View Post
One thing i don't understand is why the PDC reported value is so high for reainsert? see pic (from portable install)
That's indeed something I never realized.
Great that you've found a (fiddly) workaround, as did I. But still, there's still something weird going on under the hood with ReaInsert, hope this gets addressed some time.
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Old 05-26-2021, 06:09 AM   #18
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When i have a plugin in the monitoring FX with PDC i get the exact same delay compensation in reainsert with or without it! There has to been something really wrong with your setup guys.
What plugins are you using in the monitoring FX, please provide printscreen if possible.
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Old 05-26-2021, 06:43 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepe44 View Post
When i have a plugin in the monitoring FX with PDC i get the exact same delay compensation in reainsert with or without it! There has to been something really wrong with your setup guys.
What plugins are you using in the monitoring FX, please provide printscreen if possible.
Same here.
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Old 05-26-2021, 10:14 AM   #20
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Now that's weird: as I've deleted the 2 Siennas, which were the worst PDC offender, as well as the formerly offline plugins (save SonoBus), it works.
Here's what I've got right now, and while it is not (yet) exactly phase-correct, it works for reverbs, which is my main use of ReaInsert anyway.

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Old 05-26-2021, 12:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
Now that's weird: as I've deleted the 2 Siennas, which were the worst PDC offender, as well as the formerly offline plugins (save SonoBus), it works.
Here's what I've got right now, and while it is not (yet) exactly phase-correct, it works for reverbs, which is my main use of ReaInsert anyway.

maybe offtopic but mixing VST x86 and VST3 can cause issues.
There seems to be a lot going on on the monitoring FX. I believe that´s the cause for wrong PDC calculation on the reaInsert comes from those plugins.
You should be able to set and forget the value for your reainsert PDC for the reverb unit, save it as a preset so it loads always like that. Don't forget to turn off the monitoring FX before calculating the roundtrip.
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Old 05-26-2021, 01:57 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepe44 View Post
maybe offtopic but mixing VST x86 and VST3 can cause issues.
That's the new chain which does not give me the kind of issues I had when using only x64 plugins!

Quote:
There seems to be a lot going on on the monitoring FX.
You think so? ARC (32 samples) is for the main speakers (output 15-16), "DIM" is a renamed ReaFir for Fletcher-Munson compensated 12dB attenuation, Monitoring (0 samples) for the mono Auratone (output 14) and HRTF (0 samples) for the headphones (output 3-4). The SonoBus (3-4 as well) is offline most of the time, it's just for a quick check on the smartphone speaker. I have no other option to be honest.

Quote:
save it as a preset so it loads always like that. Don't forget to turn off the monitoring FX before calculating the roundtrip
That's a great idea!
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Old 05-31-2021, 06:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by din_mentor View Post
i also have these problems with the ping in reainsert, however nothing changed when trying it in a portable install.
(no monitoring fx, also when having my monitor fx bypassed in my regular reaper install nothing changed to the better)
WIN 10 Reaper 6.29 - testing done with a TRS cable from output directly to input.
Yeah I also got to test bypassing monitoring fx - that did nothing. Still Reainsert is unable to do a ping. Frustrating to say the least.
Thanks for the tip on RTL-checker! will try it out

I'm really curious as to why Reainsert/Reaper is misbehaving (user error, faulty plugin etc)
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Old 01-26-2022, 10:08 AM   #24
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I need to bump this issue/bug up to the top again.

Active "latent" Monitoring FX break the ReaInsert ping on a track.

Simple as that.
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Old 03-01-2022, 02:21 PM   #25
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Thanks for the script, I'll try that!
[QUOTE=beingmf;2444473]So indeed, ping is correct in Reaper portable.

These are my startup scripts, not sure if any of them would confuse the delay compensation?
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Old 03-12-2022, 01:41 PM   #26
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I have the same issues you all describe with reainsert. I am unable to manually sync the return, or use ping. There is always a delayed signal.

I noticed that it only seems to be users with AMD processors that are reporting the issue.
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Old 03-12-2022, 06:12 PM   #27
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https://youtu.be/19HnMme0-2U
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Old 03-13-2022, 12:56 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepe44 View Post
tl;dw
At which point in the video is the influence of the monitor FX chain mentioned? Thanks!
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Old 03-13-2022, 06:57 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bevbones View Post
I noticed that it only seems to be users with AMD processors that are reporting the issue.
That would be crazy if there was a correlation!!!
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Old 10-26-2023, 02:04 AM   #30
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In reaper 7.01 still does it. In fact there seems to be an issue with the calculated plugin latency when turning monitoring fx chain off (or any fx chain) and making the plugins actually offline (which fixes it temporarily).

Ping in reainsert still useless.
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Old 10-26-2023, 02:49 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barbaroja View Post
In reaper 7.01 still does it. In fact there seems to be an issue with the calculated plugin latency when turning monitoring fx chain off (or any fx chain) and making the plugins actually offline (which fixes it temporarily).

Ping in reainsert still useless.
In my case it is solved. BUT I have no idea if the culprit was Reaper or a badly coded plugin within the Monitor FX chain, as I replaced pretty much everything (ARC3 > Dirac etc.).
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Old 10-26-2023, 08:24 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beingmf View Post
In my case it is solved. BUT I have no idea if the culprit was Reaper or a badly coded plugin within the Monitor FX chain, as I replaced pretty much everything (ARC3 > Dirac etc.).
The issues with PDC occur in regular tracks, also. So it is not solved in R7, it also happened before.
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Old 10-26-2023, 09:24 PM   #33
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When turning off the whole FX chain, reaper does not take away the PDC sometimes. Towards the end of the capture you can tell how reaper has discrepancies between performance meter and track about actual PDC going on. I think this is related with reainsert issues when it is not able to ping. I am using 7.02

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Old 11-07-2023, 09:10 PM   #34
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This seems like an important issue.
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