Noise Problem

[Andy_D]

OK, I've been through all of the threads on gain settings. Basically from what I've been able to gather is that I should leave most of my levels in Reaper at 0 db and adjust my volumes to achieve as close to -12 db.

My problem is that at least when I am monitoring I get a lot of noise back through my headphones That I can't get rid of. I can reduce it to some extent but I can't figure out how to get rid of it. The noise is like a static or his that increases with both volume and playing dynamics. I play bass and if I really dig in while playing the noise can get very obnoxious.

My interface is a Korg Pandora P5XD. I have experimented with changing ASIO settings and buffers but to no avail even though I was able to reduce the echos that I was getting. I have tried setting the bass, treble, mid and volume settings on my Pandora flat thinking that maybe I was over driving something but can only manage a slight reduction.

Has anyone else experienced anything similar and what did you do to solve it? Are there any filters in the effect plug-ins that might be useful for this?

I'm hoping that when my new USB mixer arrives that this will become a thing of the past but I'd still like to use my Pandora for amp modeling until I can afford a higher quality bass modeling Pre-Amp.

[pljones]

Are you running everything off a power source with a common Earth? The only thing I can think is you may have an earth loop problem. (Google that phrase and see if it is.)

That, or your cables are seriously in need of cleaning...

[Andy_D]

PL

My cable are good and I'm running power from USB, and have fresh batteries installed as well.

Near as I can figure it most likely must be a problem inherent in the Korg. It's mainly a headphone practice amp after all albeit with multi-effects, drums, and a USB connection. To be truthful I won't ever use it for effects when I play through my amp because it sounds too crappy. However through headphones it actually sounds quite amazing. To be truthful that is what I bought it for an ultra portable personal practice unit.

After I get the mixer a Bass V-Amp pro will soon follow. I know I've got a bad case of GAS!

[pljones]

Weird, it almost sounds like the signal level down the USB from the P5XD is way too low and you're having to (digitally) amplify it (along with the inherent noise). Is there an output level specifically for the USB on the P5XD?

[Andy_D]

Actually there is a USB send and it does have a level adjsutment. I've always left it at it's default which is max. I'll have to try adjusting to see what happens as I had not really considered that part.

Thank you! I will post back with results after I've had the chance to experiment.

[Andy_D]

Well, I tried playing with the USB settings, and that made no difference. I was able to do a couple of things such as cranking up the noise reduction on the Pandora to around 70% which helps a little, and backing off the latency settings for my Asio drivers. I had them set at 196 (3.5 ms) this had the effect of reducing some noise but bringing me back to my original problem of hearing echos.

I'm beginning to believe that this is going to be a no-win situation because of the way the Pandora works. The volume control on the unit controls not only what is heard but also what gets sent through the USB. In order to get ones levels correct you have no choice but to have this within a certain range. Since I'm unable to cancel this out I am stuck having to listen to both the original and monitored signal. If I try to reduce latencies I get noise, If I try to reduce noise I get echos from latencies. It's kind of like a dog chasing his tail!

Just a thought... it might be worthwhile creating a sticky for problematic interfaces to have them all in one place. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has issues. And, this problem is unique to Ninjam since I have no problems if I'm only just recording into Reaper.

[pljones]

I take it you don't listen to Reaper's output (i.e. what Reaper is recording) when recording in Reaper? NINJAM does nothing to change that.

You should only be able to hear what's coming out of Reaper, so I don't understand the "echoes" issue.

[Andy_D]

Originally Posted by pljones

I take it you don't listen to Reaper's output (i.e. what Reaper is recording) when recording in Reaper? NINJAM does nothing to change that.

You should only be able to hear what's coming out of Reaper, so I don't understand the "echoes" issue.

Yes I am listening to Reapers Output, but I am also listening to the output from the Pandora. Since there is no way to disable the Pandora's native headphone output I hear it along with the output from Reaper. Therein lies the problem. If you turn down the volume on the Pandora you lose your input into Reaper, conversely if you turn off track monitoring in Reaper you are not sending a signal to Ninjam.

I have no way of disabling the Pandora's headphone signal (that which is being sent over the USB) while continuing to monitor what is coming back to the Pandora from the USB return. Since both signals are superimposed on each other the echo is a direct result of this. The latency in the return signal playing over the original sounds to me like an echo plain and simple. When I have tried to reduce the latency down to it's bare minimum to make it bearable I introduced the obnoxious noise.

I think this is likely a lose/lose situation for me until I have another interface to use.

[pljones]

That's a weird set up and doesn't seem right some how... Do you have no other audio out on the PC the PX5R is plugged into? (You can combine them using JACKD for Windows or ASIO4ALL usually... But can hit issues with both.)

[andrew grove]

Originally Posted by Andy_D

OK, I've been through all of the threads on gain settings. Basically from what I've been able to gather is that I should leave most of my levels in Reaper at 0 db and adjust my volumes to achieve as close to -12 db.

My problem is that at least when I am monitoring I get a lot of noise back through my headphones That I can't get rid of. I can reduce it to some extent but I can't figure out how to get rid of it. The noise is like a static or his that increases with both volume and playing dynamics. I play bass and if I really dig in while playing the noise can get very obnoxious.

My interface is a Korg Pandora P5XD. I have experimented with changing ASIO settings and buffers but to no avail even though I was able to reduce the echos that I was getting. I have tried setting the bass, treble, mid and volume settings on my Pandora flat thinking that maybe I was over driving something but can only manage a slight reduction.

Has anyone else experienced anything similar and what did you do to solve it? Are there any filters in the effect plug-ins that might be useful for this?

I'm hoping that when my new USB mixer arrives that this will become a thing of the past but I'd still like to use my Pandora for amp modeling until I can afford a higher quality bass modeling Pre-Amp.

Hi and once I got my usb interface alot of my noise went away and on the echo thing I would check the mixer and see if you are hearing both the output from recording and a direct sound from the mixer part (in Windows mute the signal source i.e.: line input or aux) enjoy guy

[Andy_D]

Originally Posted by pljones

That's a weird set up and doesn't seem right some how... Do you have no other audio out on the PC the PX5R is plugged into? (You can combine them using JACKD for Windows or ASIO4ALL usually... But can hit issues with both.)

I was of the belief that when using an ASIO device your computers soundcard is disabled. The P5XD plugs in through USB and utilizes Korg's own drivers. ASIO4ALL won't work with the Korg it's on my system and I've tried.

Now, if there was a way to send output to, and enable my soudcard concurrently that might be a fix. Would it be possible to use re-route to do this? I'm fairly new Reaper and DAW's in general but consider myself fairly competent with tech stuff. I'm learning a lot - Fast.

[Andy_D]

Originally Posted by andrew grove

Hi and once I got my usb interface alot of my noise went away and on the echo thing I would check the mixer and see if you are hearing both the output from recording and a direct sound from the mixer part (in Windows mute the signal source i.e.: line input or aux) enjoy guy

The Korg is my USB interface. That being said I am awaiting a new Behringer X1622USB mixer (it's the newest model and vendor is awaiting delivery from the factory). I think (hope) that once I get this my problems will go away. I'm sure that a mixer should give me many more options as to which signal to listen to or mute. Korg markets the P5XD as a multi-effects processor AND an audio interface. Obviously the audio interface was an afterthought and new to the current generation.

[pljones]

Originally Posted by Andy_D

I was of the belief that when using an ASIO device your computers soundcard is disabled. The P5XD plugs in through USB and utilizes Korg's own drivers. ASIO4ALL won't work with the Korg it's on my system and I've tried.

Now, if there was a way to send output to, and enable my soudcard concurrently that might be a fix. Would it be possible to use re-route to do this? I'm fairly new Reaper and DAW's in general but consider myself fairly competent with tech stuff. I'm learning a lot - Fast.

Your DAW (Reaper here) will only let you use a single I/O subsystem (Windows Multimedia Extensions (MME), DirectSound or ASIO generally being the choices) and depending on the I/O subsystem choice, you'll get a choice of physical I/Os. MME generally exposes all your devices concurrently but has large buffers so isn't suitable for live playing. DirectSound depends on drivers for your card, as does ASIO and, as such, you can't have two devices selected at the same time in your DAW.

What ASIO4ALL does is use the DirectSound drivers -- but it doesn't constrain you to a single one, it lets you use whatever you've got. In your DAW, you then use ASIO4ALL. Of course, that relies on DirectSound support for your cards (and the DirectSound support being good enough -- it's not always).

Yeah, it does sound like they went "Oh, we could take on a $3 audio interface and charge an extra $30!" in the marketing department...

[AndyMc]

Hiya

You can mute local channel on the ReaNINJAM or NINJAM window to remove the echo and use your cards (korg's) out for your own volume. This will remove the echo but you will not then be able to use FX on the REAPER input track in realtime but maybe you have external fx anyway.

The static, if its more like clicks, pops and gargles then you could try give the usb device more cpu.

A couple of questions:
Does all of REAPERS sound crackling or just your own?
Do others hear the crackling sound of yours or just you?

Other solutions, if you plan on using external fx and not using NINJAM or REAPER's FX's then you could try in audio setup of NINJAM or REAPER the setting of DirectSound, or WDM Kernal Streaming or Wave Out and Mute Local Channel in the NINJAM window after getting your levels right.
But when ya get ya new desk and use its ASIO all the delayed sound and asio/audio probs will vanish. When you get it set to ASIO in the audio system option in NINJAM or REAPER then set below that the asio driver as ya desk's asio which should show once you've installed your desk.

[Andy_D]

Originally Posted by AndyMc

Hiya

You can mute local channel on the ReaNINJAM or NINJAM window to remove the echo and use your cards (korg's) out for your own volume. This will remove the echo but you will not then be able to use FX on the REAPER input track in realtime but maybe you have external fx anyway.

Hey Andy,

You know that certainly seems like the easiest and quickest way to accomplish this, and indeed was one of the first things I tried. Here's the conundrum. If I disable "record monitoring" on my local track (track 1) then I lose my input into the RealNinjam client. Now here is where it gets strange. I have a second track that I have EZ Drummer on (Track 2). If I fire up EZ Drummer and then disable record monitoring on track 2 I'm still contributing to both the local and master mixes in the RealNinjam.

Question; Do I need to change any settings on track 1 so that I can disable track monitoring and still contribute to the RealNinjam client? Granted it's MIDI and not audio, but how come I can disable record monitoring on track 2 and still contribute while not on track 1? Everything is pretty much at it's default state. I've experimented some but to no avail.

Originally Posted by AndyMc

A couple of questions:
Does all of REAPERS sound crackling or just your own?
Do others hear the crackling sound of yours or just you?

1. The noise only gets bad when I turn on record monitoring.
2. I've played back my localy recorded jams, and they sound clean so obviously this is only coming through on my monitoring only. Also I have to be very careful as it is very easy to overmodulate I must use be quite nimble with my volume settings on the Korg, and my bass.

In conclusion I do not know if this is some quirk that is unique to the Korg driver or is this a NinJam issue. Although, the recordings come out fine it is difficult to play properly when you can't hear what your playing correctly.

Thanks everyone for all your help.

[AndyMc]

Funny this cos I just been on another post on another forum http://ninbot.com/topic/ninjam-reaper-2-output-channels and it shows how to setup multiple channels and I just reposted a long post on how people can achieve a monitoring of audio with out sending to ReaNINJAM as more channels from others can cause this exact problem of cracks and pops.

To hear your audio and possibly kill the cracks and pops too but not send to ReaNINJAM try this.

Click IO on an audio track with you input, then select Add new Hardware Output, on there you will see REAPERS output, should show your sound card outputs, select the output you want.
Now you will see Post-Fader (Post-FX), change this to Pre-Fader (Post-FX) if u use REAPERS FX's or change to Pre-FX.
It also could be using the FX's on a track causing your popping and crackling but they may not be heard remotely or on records.

Close IO your done in there, now on your tracks the Fader will reduce audio to ReaNINJAM but the extra output you setup should give you a clean sound still even when the fader is down.
When the fader is up you will sort of hear the audio twice, so now when u mute local channel on ReaNINJAM it will only come out once.
This can be used for say routing to a headphones out too, so you can say use front headphone out socked on machine to monitor, bit like a DJ would with some decks and a mixer.

[Andy_D]

Andy,

I tried your suggestion which helped just a little. I think what the real problem was gain amplification. Since there are so many places where I have gain or volume controls when when one or more are maxed out you have a pathway for the introduction of noise.

I have on the Korg a Gain, Volume, USB Send, and USB Receive as well as Gain settings for various effects and amp models. I had already backed off on my master gain and volume settings. I tried reducing the USB send, and the USB receive from max to around 70%. This has made for a substantial reduction in noise. Now I'll have to see how all this affects my levels in NinJam. It will I assume be a trial and error process.

I can't wait till I get my new interface. I have a Focusrite Saffire 24 on order as we speak (On back-order from the factory woudn't you know). I'm hopeful that when that arrives that all of my interface problems will disappear. The good part about that interface is that you can create your own headphone mix and pick and choose you sources. A whole lot more flexible.

[AndyMc]

:| I want new stuff too but I got to buy a car now :"(

Yeah I did think gain when reading a lot of posts back, when you said it recorded ok it made me think it might not be gain.
If ya have loud noise with the clicks and pops then gain or bad sound drivers can cause that.
It's easy when ya can hear a snippet of audio, but anyway it sorta shows how well ninjam brings the volume down to kill out the noise of over gained.
I suppose being a sort of digital over gained through the korg thing, then probs why it make a clicky sound and not distortion.

Its cool u got it sorted and come back and left the info, it will help someone else one day now. Nothing worse than looking for info, hitting a page and someone says, I think it might be this or that then they never come back.
Then it's google time again.

[Andy_D]

Originally Posted by AndyMc

:| I want new stuff too but I got to buy a car now :"(

Yeah I did think gain when reading a lot of posts back, when you said it recorded ok it made me think it might not be gain.
If ya have loud noise with the clicks and pops then gain or bad sound drivers can cause that.
It's easy when ya can hear a snippet of audio, but anyway it sorta shows how well ninjam brings the volume down to kill out the noise of over gained.
I suppose being a sort of digital over gained through the korg thing, then probs why it make a clicky sound and not distortion.

Its cool u got it sorted and come back and left the info, it will help someone else one day now. Nothing worse than looking for info, hitting a page and someone says, I think it might be this or that then they never come back.
Then it's google time again.

Well my Saffire arrived Yesterday and after some trials and tribulations it's up and running. It's great, with the software mixer you can pretty much route any input or output where ever you want it. It's cool becuse you create your own headphone or monitor mix using whatever source you would like, very versatile. I got my hands on the Amplitube VST which is just like using amps and stomp boxes so it's basically one stop shopping for most of my sound shaping. I'm sure there is better stuff out there but you can't beat the simplicity of it all. I'll go with that for now for my Ninjam sound shaping.

Next gear purchases will be a MIDI keyboard and a good microphone. All that means that I now need to fix up my spare bedroom/Home office/music room because I'm running out of desk space.

Again, thanks for the help., and yeah hopefully this will help someone in the future.