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Old 04-03-2010, 04:52 PM   #1
songdude
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Default playing songs by bands

Why is that nobody wants to play some normal songs (covers)? Everybody just wants to jam and play whatever.

I don't know how to improvise and just want to play some songs from any band with a few people, but nobody seems to want to do that; I even asked.

Is Ninjam not suited for it or am I missing something? Also if anybody feel this way, PM me and we can fix something up.

Last edited by songdude; 04-04-2010 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 04-04-2010, 01:05 AM   #2
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First off, playing other people's material without permission is theft. You're breaking the law. Don't do it.

Secondly, it's not going to help you to learn how to jam, anyway. If you want to become an original musician, jamming is something you'll have to learn how to do. Listening in NINJAM is a good way, as you'll hear what works and what doesn't during the process. (Finished songs don't give you any of that experience.)

Thirdly, there are limitations in NINJAM. You need to understand them before you can use the system fully to your advantage. Think about how a chord progression or key change would work and see if you can think through what others in the jam are going to be experiencing.
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...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.
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Old 04-04-2010, 01:21 AM   #3
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First off, playing other people's material without permission is theft. You're breaking the law. Don't do it.
Oh come on! That's a bit over the top!
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:02 AM   #4
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Which bit?
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...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.
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Old 04-04-2010, 08:20 AM   #5
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Why is that nobody wants to play some normal songs (covers)? Everybody just wants to jam and play whatever.

First off the name says it all NinJAM.

Secondly, playing covers requires that everyone involved learn the song. That requires a little bit of coordination. Consider that many Ninjammers get on and do this in their spare time off from work or whatever, and get online to play with whomever is available at the time. It can be challenging to get enough people together at the same time who have done their 'homework' and correctly learned all of the songs.

Thirdly, as PL said Jamming will make you a better player, is fun, and just seems to work better within the constraints of the software format.

So come on and jam, improve your chops, and ability to groove with others and when you do get into a band setting and your playing 'songs' you'll find that your 'jamming' experience will help you hold down a groove better. Especially for those times when you have a mental block. There's nothing like being able to 'fake' you're way through a passage when you've forgotten the 'exact' notes. I remember some famous musician saying "Never loose the groove while searching for a note." The more you play the more you will see the wisdom in this statement.
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:37 PM   #6
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First off, playing other people's material without permission is theft. You're breaking the law. Don't do it.
Wow. I mean, seriously, wow dude. Are you seriously taking the attitude that a couple guys jamming out a cover is "theft"? Holy fucking shit. You, sir, are a gigantic asshole. The point of copyright is to prevent people from unfairly profiting off the work of others, not to completely stifle people's ability to enjoy the artistic works that make up our collective culture. You dick.

Re: Jamming. Eh, improvisation skills are the basic entry requirement for participating in a jam session. Even if you're playing covers, what really makes a jam session fun is taking it in your own direction, putting your own spin on it, collaborating with other musicians in real time and producing something that is a unique product of the musical chemistry between the people in the room - even within the context of a song that somebody else wrote. If all you're doing is playing somebody else's part without putting anything of yourself into it, you're missing out on probably 95% of what makes music music.
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Old 04-04-2010, 01:02 PM   #7
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Wow. I mean, seriously, wow dude. Are you seriously taking the attitude that a couple guys jamming out a cover is "theft"? Holy fucking shit. You, sir, are a gigantic asshole. The point of copyright is to prevent people from unfairly profiting off the work of others, not to completely stifle people's ability to enjoy the artistic works that make up our collective culture. You dick.
Er, right. Eloquently put.

Read up on copyright before you make up your own version, okay? Unfortunately, intellectual property laws have been drawn up by lawyers interested in making money for themselves, rather than promoting any development of artistic works. Get real.

Then read up on the Collective Commons licence used on NINJAM.

But please. Sites get closed down because of this kind of stuff. I like playing on NINJAM. I don't want to see it closed down. Yes, it's unlikely but hey, why take the risk?
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...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:38 PM   #8
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Read up on copyright before you make up your own version, okay?
Maybe you should try reading it yourself. It specifically exempts performances made for non-commercial purposes.

Even regardless of the exemption, trying to seriously apply copyright law to a couple of people getting together to bang out some tunes for fun makes you a grade A asshole. It's like a cop pulling you over for 1 mph over the limit. Yeah, it's the law, etc, but that doesn't make you any less of a dick for trying to apply it to situations clearly outside its intended scope. I bet you're a hit at parties when you walk up to the stereo and turn it off because the host didn't pay his ASCAP fee.

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Unfortunately, intellectual property laws have been drawn up by lawyers interested in making money for themselves, rather than promoting any development of artistic works. Get real.
Again, this does not make the laws any less unfair and deserving of repeal. It is the duty of every citizen to rebel against unjust laws, it's what this country was founded on in the first place.

Last edited by Analogy; 04-04-2010 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 04-04-2010, 05:47 PM   #9
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i guess that i need to get out my bank card the next time i'm playing guitar by a campfire.
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:43 AM   #10
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That's the US law. Places where there wasn't "common law" of non-commercial usage do not have that exemption. And NINJAM isn't limited to the US. Get out a bit. The variations between territories on copyright legislation are a minefield. It's simply a better option just not to do it. And as has been pointed out, copyright infringement is just one of the reasons.

Also, I don't see how that exemption gives you the right to re-licence someone else's work as used in your performance. NINJAM requires that you've authority to licence your work under the CC Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike licence and you can't for performances of (other people's) commercial recordings (without their permission). (Although, I accept, in the US, by using that licence you'd perpetuate the 110.4 exemption. Maybe. Still feels wrong... But that's my non-US view on copyright, I guess.)
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Even regardless of the exemption, trying to seriously apply copyright law to a couple of people getting together to bang out some tunes for fun makes you a grade A asshole.
And like how can I apply it? All I'm doing it is pointing out the issue and saying "Don't" because I think it's a selfish thing to do. I can't make you change your behaviour. If I say nothing, though, people are not even going to think about it.

And personally, if someone starts thrashing out the chords to Smoke On The Water, I'm gonna try getting my drum licks in... Because "fair usage" here covers the four bars you can get to work on NINJAM..! (I don't think a couple of bars is what the original question was about, though.)
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I bet you're a hit at parties when you walk up to the stereo and turn it off because the host didn't pay his ASCAP fee.
PRS over here and they'd love it... except private performance of recordings is exempt. Here. (If it was a hired venue, they'd have to have a PRS licence. In the last few years, the PRS has been hunting down everywhere that plays (or could play...) music and might even vaguely earn revenue... Like taxi drivers... I don't remember if they won that one...)
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i guess that i need to get out my bank card the next time i'm playing guitar by a campfire.
Not for your own work. Not for work out of copyright. And not unless you're planning to record it and release the performance as your own work. Like NINJAM does. (Or if you're charging folks to listen to you and don't manage to drink the proceeds as "expenses"...) YMMV, Ts&Cs apply, etc.
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Originally Posted by Tony Williams
...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.

Last edited by pljones; 04-05-2010 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 04-05-2010, 06:32 AM   #11
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Thank you all for the harsh and warm replies. People seem to be so good on NinJam, that I feel left out a little, I think I need to improve my technique before join with you all,
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Old 04-05-2010, 08:52 AM   #12
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People seem to be so good on NinJam, that I feel left out a little, I think I need to improve my technique before join with you all,
There's a wide variance. But working on technique is always worth doing, no matter what your level. I wish I had time!

Hearing something and being able to reproduce it is a good skill to have. You can get this by playing other people's songs.

Listening to something and knowing how to add something appropriate is also a good skill to have. I don't think you can get this by playing other people's songs - you use the technical skills you learnt but you're not applying them creatively. This is where sitting in jams and joining them (maybe with transmit off if you're that worried) can help.

Of course, you don't need to be perfect in the first to start doing the second!

And whilst the first won't make you able to do the second, the second really will help with the first. At least, that's what I'm counting on..!
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Originally Posted by Tony Williams
...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.

Last edited by pljones; 04-05-2010 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 04-05-2010, 02:55 PM   #13
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guys hang on a minute please.
i think pljones means playing copyrighted songs over ninjam.
and he would be right.
but you can still play around a campfire.
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Old 04-05-2010, 05:03 PM   #14
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Not for your own work. Not for work out of copyright. And not unless you're planning to record it and release the performance as your own work. Like NINJAM does. (Or if you're charging folks to listen to you and don't manage to drink the proceeds as "expenses"...) YMMV, Ts&Cs apply, etc.
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guys hang on a minute please.
i think pljones means playing copyrighted songs over ninjam.
and he would be right.
but you can still play around a campfire.


ok, so if i play songs, which are under copyright, around the campfire, and someone happens to record a video of it with their phone/camera to put up on youtube, i need to pay up? this is retarded. no one is making money from this.
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Old 04-05-2010, 10:19 PM   #15
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First off, playing other people's material without permission is theft. You're breaking the law. Don't do it.
Lol. Marketing it as your own is theft, idiot. In that case, there are millions of people on YouTube that are doing covers of songs that are "Breaking The Law" as you say... HaHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
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Old 04-05-2010, 10:20 PM   #16
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guys hang on a minute please.
i think pljones means playing copyrighted songs over ninjam.
and he would be right.
but you can still play around a campfire.
Thats NOT what he said dude.
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Old 04-06-2010, 12:20 AM   #17
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Lol. Marketing it as your own is theft, idiot. In that case, there are millions of people on YouTube that are doing covers of songs that are "Breaking The Law" as you say... HaHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Er, you realise that YouTube was sued and the law upheld that they had to pay royalties? So, um, yes. They were "Breaking The Law". Case in point. Thank you.
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...Playing fast around the drums is one thing. But to play with people for others, to listen to, that's something else. That's a whole other world.
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:33 PM   #18
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BANG BANG BANG!!! ORDERRRR! ORDER IN THE HOUSE.
Madam Speaker, I wish to bring forward the point of copyrighted material...

I don't think playing it is illegal, maybe recording it could be in some form or another if it was then sold in some form or another.

You could argue many tunes are rip off's of other tunes, hey Justin Timberlake has allegedly ripped off others musics and put it straight into his tracks with no real adaptation from the originals.
But funny enough that didn't seem to both anyone up top who was making money from it.

I think it was a bit harsh PJ, but I guess his could have looked harsh too but I don't thikn he meant it, most n00bies to NINJAM feel the same till they understand it more. Lets love our new community members and greet with with a kiss, understanding and loving care.
Once we have them addicted, THEN WE CAN RUN THEM OVER WITH THE CAR!!!
But lets first savour them and embrace them.

I love you songtune, I understand your woes and you feel it hard to find the improvisations, so let me lovingly give you some help.
You will know many patterns to songs, formations of parts you play, so listen to the bass or lowest keys played, then quietly play down from an E to lower E until you hear the note that best fits.
Now try some patterns you know from other songs with similar rhythms from that key you found that best matched.

I love you man, coem here, give me a hug....

I love you too PJ and Synth, well I love Synth more but that's just my male hormones taking over.

PJ with the sued issue, I thought that was for actual copyrighted material, not others singing it, I'd imagine, maybe that people sharing score and similar would be copyright unless it was adapted.
You might be right but I thought they got pressed over music videos and tv shows etc so struck some deals and couldn't strike one for the UK and that's why some stuff aint viewable as they just stopped that content on there network as they was being asked for too much cash.

Uhhhhhhh Breathhhhhhh.

Good thing if you ask me, there trying to pass a bill here to force ISP's to cut people off to protect the music industries profits. No law should be passed to help a company control there profits. It is a for sure they will increase prices when they know they have people by the balls.
They just dictate the music we all hear, become too powerful and push the little guy out.
This is why the net is so cool, we now have choice but having choice makes them no money.
Even the BBC over here seem to be pushing against it, and people are saying they want it debated properly and not forced through for the sake of rich people.

TBH I'm for sharing everything and people could get fan bases fairly and not cos they got money and most popular to get on all TV shows and played on all radio stations, but because they genuinely earned there fans and fans would then pay to see live performances, online and at concerts or gigs.

Now kiss and make up, or I'm going to get my big spanking paddle out and put people over my knee, and not because I'm angry and want to punish you, but because I enjoy it.
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Old 04-09-2010, 06:23 AM   #19
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Thanks for the hugs hehe, I also aprreciate the tips...
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Old 04-09-2010, 02:00 PM   #20
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First off, playing other people's material without permission is theft. You're breaking the law. Don't do it.
As has already been suggested, the problem with the above statement is that it refers to merely playing copyrighted material, which by implication seems to suggest that playing someone else's song was illegal regardless of context. This is misleading.

Copyright is quite literally concerned with the right to create a copy of an existing work. This relates to making recordings of artistic works (which in the case of music also includes printed sheet music) as well as public performance. Therefore, if you play together in a way that automatically creates a recording you are breaking copyright law. Similarly, if you play a public performance this is also restricted. But if you merely play the tune in your living room or wherever else private it's all perfectly legal.
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:39 AM   #21
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I'd assumed the context was performing on one of the public NINJAM servers that records performances.
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Old 04-10-2010, 04:22 AM   #22
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Just change the words you'll be fine:

Code:
 Cad bompany till the lay I lie - Raul Podgers
~Rob.
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Old 04-11-2010, 05:07 PM   #23
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Well if you look at it like this, a lot of produced bands will learn and start by playing other peoples songs.
Then they will proceed to make there own songs and there experiences will come from what they have already learnt which will be other peoples tunes.
So to then tell other people to not do covers of there songs is a bit hypercritical.

Ok yes it is recorded but the way NINJAM works you would not have a full proper cover performed and then it would only be an infringement to profit or pass off other artists work that's copyrighted or to supply mp3's of there actual works.
To have a live recorded mp3 of an artist playing another artists music, not for profit or gain isn't infringing the original artist, if anything it is creating more fans for the original works.

If we become ridiculous we could argue things like, the Video of Andre playing a piano in London Street is illegal, or playing a tun to test a instrument in a music store with other members of public is illegal, or walking past a house then standing outside listening to a song being played is illegal, or hearing a band in a bandstand is illegal.
I know if shops or businesses play a radio etc or music they have to have a license over here which isn't too expensive.
But anyway if it was an infringement then buying score and playing somewhere with other people would also be an infringement, no one would support such ideas.
Because you would just end up with a counter productive situation.

I personally don't see any legality issues with NINJAM recording and someone playing a known song on there instrument.
After all, if the music on NINJAM was dissected then most what we play is something that's been played before.

If it was down to me which it isn't, I'd bin this thread, del it straight into the bin.

But there's one thing that really hurts NINJAM and its users, and that's is HATE!, and it can spread like wild fire.
If I enter a Jam and I'm feeling really inspired and creative, then the same people are in bitching it just sinks my boat.

NINJAM is like a level thing, you start at your level of ability, learn so much from others at a higher or longevity of ability, some jealousy can occur but that should turn to envy and to a wanting, to learn from others.
The problem comes when the Jealousy part doesn't turn to envy.
There is always going to be someone who's better than someone else at one thing or another then another who's better at something else.
We all want to be the best we can but to be the best ourselves, others matter in that creation process.

NOW HUG! :P
Where's my spanking paddle?

And a wise man once said, ST*U, you speak too much!
But luckily I don't see them no more.
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:07 PM   #24
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Default Copyright legalities, and the REAL reason - The technical one

Well there are really 2 different rights in copyright... For lack of memory on my part, I'll call these performance rights and distribution rights.

Technically speaking, taking someone else's performance in whole or in part, and blasting it over a loud speaker violates distribution rights of copyright. This is also where samplers and mash-up artists get nailed to the cross in the copyright crucifixion game. And, contrary to popular belief it doesn't even have to be a recognzable piece of the song that you are sampling...

On the other hand, if I take someone's song and play it at a live gig, without obtaining rights (Usually through buying the sheet music, or some such avenue), then I break the law by performing it in public. As a campfire could be argued to be a private setting (You and a couple friends) then it's legal. On the other hand Ninjam, which in the case of the test servers is open to the world, makes it a public performance. So, it would be legal to perform on a public Ninjam server so long as the original rights are kept in-tact (thus you can't play it on a Creative Commons-Licensed server), and everyone has paid for the sheet music (and performance rights accompanying that sheet music, if it's granted). Good Luck there....

Now, in relation to the original post, the TECHNICAL difficulty with playing covers, is one of chord changes and song structure... Because if the Segmented delay on Ninjam, if one person changes chord progressions (ie: Verse to Chorus), those changes won't be heard by another person for another segment. therefore for one segment, everyone on the server would have to play blindly a new chord pattern atop the old chord pattern. In other words, chord changes don't work well.

So unless you're playing "Brain Stew" by Green Day, or "Good" by Better then Ezra (or other songs where Chorus chord pattern = Verse chord Pattern with slightly different rhythm), you will have an ungodly mess of chord changes. Thus it only makes sense to stick to a free-form jam over top a steady chord progression, and alter the rhythm. This is why Jazz is so common on Ninjam - Anyone can drag out and evolve a Jazz lick to an epic 30 minute jam. If you mess up, "Its all about the notes you're not hearing...." :P
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Old 04-16-2010, 04:42 AM   #25
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When you log on to NINJAM, you check the box where you agree to the rules: no copyrighted material!

Well, I've broken law several times on NINJAM. Last week I end up hearing myself doing the "born to be wild"-riff with jave singing "get your motor running, head out on the highway".. it was a blast! But the cover-fun ended in a very short time when we hit the BPI-barrier, and moved on to playing varieties of the song and riffs, and in the end the whole thing turned out to be something quite different.

I doubt that a majority of people would listen to years of material in the archives in order to find the right song, edit it, putting it into iTunes and transfer it to the iPod, just to save some money on iTunes Store.

Playing with BPI larger than 32 kills the "live" feel for me. I spent a lot of time waiting, trying to find out what the others do (and why) and eventually I just wait untill somebody cast the vote.

I've made several songs the other way round though. Randomly spitting out words, and doing chord-progressions with a nice sound to it looks a lot like the way I write songs IRL. Once in a while we hit THE song (usually the chorus, later on adding verses), but the whole song is finished offline (using services like kompoz).

Most jammers I meet is way better than me in terms of technique, musicial innovation and sound, but noone can be me, adding the special 3mph-thing to the band. With that in mind I join any jam, not thinking about skills but about meeting others through music. So.. keep your Xmit on and enlighten us with your special songdude-feeling, please!
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Old 04-18-2010, 05:40 PM   #26
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Yeah don't be a xmit clicker, better to hear a mistake than nothing.

Also NINJAM is a JAM not a radio server, some can enter sometimes, play nothing, give critism, complaints and start putting in requests, as if they have there own personal music system.

It seems from the experiences of NINJAM that what works best is when people don't complain about music genre being played, don't complain about how good or bad another player is, don't think they own an instrument space in the server just because they also play it and don't bitch because they just had a argument in RL with there partner.

Good Jams come from positive feelings, good jams can come from sad feelings too, but not the negative bitchy type of sad feelings.

I often make myself look a dick on NINJAM I suspect, and maybe sometimes over exaggerate myself, but from this I learn my limits, know where to push and where to pull back, build my confidence and playing skills.
I feel comfortable with myself most times on NINJAM and I feel this has helped a lot in my growth as a musician and artist.
But I think I gain most my growth from other Jammers, and we all have our favourites but that doesn't mean I need to be rude to my least favourites.

Being a good musician is not about how well you play an instrument, as someone could join a server with just a mic and make great music.
As can someone who layers tracks and composes on the fly, people like this, myself include just want to fill the gaps or show maybe in a few tracks how they want to express.
All I'd say is consider players whose instrument space you may take up with multiple tracks, but in saying that, if them players are bird watching in a server and not playing then they only have themselves and there XMIT button to blame.

Reason I mention all of this is because I think a lot of this negative forum threads stems from how things are in NINJAM.
Remember this, new Jammers will enter regular in NINJAM and some will be harsh and not understand the concept of NINJAM.
The quicker you kindly show them the route to becoming a NINJAMer then the less problem they may cause you.
Tolerate new members as they will, when settled, bring new idea's and inspiration which in turn will help you with your own idea's and music.
Give them some slack until they get settled or you carry on the bad feelings from them, which ends up hurting us all.


When in perspective were basically arguing over the rights of a few companies who own and control the worlds music for there own financial gain, and to achieve this they have persuaded many governments around the world to aid them with laws.
If I make music, someone else plays it, gets famous from my music but doesn't cough up a share of revenue or passes off my work as there's then there is a problem.
But if someone plays, sings or performs my music in form of tribute, even if there payed for the gig in which they preformed then this should be seen as free advertising for me and not illegal for them.
Artist should make there money from performing, selling merchandise etc, as sharing music helps an artist to fame. Yes it's lost revenue if you look to claim on every hearing of your music which suites Record Companies but not an artist getting know more.

Sound waves aren't owned by no one, so if we make music to be heard we can't really argue someone then can't take what's heard and share it to others, as long as they respect artists rights as creators.
So saying listen to my new tune but it's a tune of another is theft, but like them saying, hey listen to this, I'll send it now, new band, really good, wanna come listen to them live or here, have there site etc. But as you can see, for a Record Company this doesn't work, they lose control.


K lets have another group hug. xXx
I love you.
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Last edited by AndyMc; 04-18-2010 at 05:58 PM.
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