Old 06-26-2008, 07:10 AM   #1
Till
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Default Thinking ahead: Extension Management

When this extension thing started, i thought it was a fun thing, but remain very specialized and of little interest to the general public.

But Xenakios is slowly but surely proving me wrong, which got me thinking.

Any problem, that is solved with an extension, is very unlikely to be solved by cockos in the original application, which is understandable - why write code twice when you can just point people to an extension? This is actually pretty cool because it speeds up REAPER's development with Cockos not having to address problems extensions can solve.

But if the current course was maintained and more and more small extensions show up with solutions that don't appear in REAPER itself, the user will be required to download and maintain a growing number of extensions to get the "full" REAPER experience.

This is bad because:

1) The definition of REAPER for "Power-Users" will be REAPER+Load-of-extensions, which it won't be for new REAPER users, they might be frustrated by either the lack of features that they were told about and/or by having to collect all sorts of extensions from this place.

2) Let's face it: it's annoying.

So i propose two possible solutions:

1) Extension Developers figure out a way to keep the number of extensions small and the extensions larger and more general. For example a Mixer Extension, a Control Surface Extension, an editing extension and they are kept OpenSource with one official binary distribution. This is good because:
a) The user more easily stays on top of the development and can also be relatively sure to get the "full" REAPER experience.
b) I'd guess that the number of Extension Developers grows. Being able to look into existing code (learning) and also not having to code an entire framework for every extension ("diving in") might motivate some people, that have some C++ knowledge, but are being scared off by the process of framing an extension, to join the project. Given enough time on my hands i'd consider myself one of those people.
c) You can easily point new users to the extensions, because they are so few.
d) if there are less extensions, the probability that two extensions do the same thing (redundant work) or get in each other's way (mutually exclusive work) is lower.

2) Creating an Extension Management System (EMS). This would consist of a) some sort of extension itself, which updates the existing extensions from b) a webservice providing the binaries, infos and possibly a website catalogue/maintenance frontend. I'd gladly take care of the webservice-end of the EMS. This is good because:
a) you don't have to stay on top of things, you are on top - always. you both have the newest version of what you want and you know what's out there to be wanted.
b) it's pretty cool and like firefox more and more applications are doing very well thriving on this principle.
c) it's a nice opportunity to include an auto-update for the REAPER core.
d) developers don't have to take care of the distribution and can concentrate on actually developing. an option could make the EMS-extension download versions marked as betas and even provide a feedback service.
e) if there is a central, well structured place for extensions it less frustrating for new users and more easily accepted.
This however is not a perfect solution for PCs that don't have direct internet access. One reason why this works for Firefox is because it's a freakin' web browser . On the other hand it won't make the situation worse for those users. *click, bing* wait, i have at least one idea how to make it work for offline PCs, but more on that on demand. *bing* ok, another one . ask if you need to know. AND offline users of course have some sort of overview, that's an improvement.

Of course these solutions don't exclude each other...

So what do you guys think? Any other ideas? Am I totally paranoid?
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:04 AM   #2
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Till!

I think that is a terrific idea, so you get the ++1.

I must say though, that it is my hope that Cockos manages to figure out a way to incorporate the best bits into Reaper's Core... Like they did (or are doing) with Derek's 01X CS extension.

.t
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Old 06-26-2008, 08:10 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
I must say though, that it is my hope that Cockos manages to figure out a way to incorporate the best bits into Reaper's Core... Like they did (or are doing) with Derek's 01X CS extension.

.t
Could be my hope, too...I am mostly thinking about the Mac here. I'd gladly give my source codes to them if they could convert and compile it for the Mac. But then there's the problem they'd have to spend time checking and debugging my code (there's around 5000-10000 lines of it now, I think, for the command extension plugin), taking valuable time off everything else...
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Old 06-26-2008, 09:46 AM   #4
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Till - Based on the threads on this forum dealing with extensions, specifically those of Xen, I certainly agree there needs to be a general management of these wonderful tools. As it can be confusing.

more specifically..
I do believe there are some of us that are asking for functionality that may already have been developed via extensions and don't know about it. I mean I see this kind of stuff all over this forum. And to be honest, it is kind of frustrating and is a challenge to keep up. At least for me it is - I tend to read everything :0

You seemed to have put a lot of thought into this and so I say YES ++1. Thank you!

I don't know what I can do, but certainly I'd like to help maybe?
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Old 06-28-2008, 08:00 AM   #5
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gee, 111 views and 3 replies.

guys, i'm actually asking for opinions! i was just proposing 2 solutions for a problem we don't even really have yet. discuss, please!

maybe a statement from cockos?
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Old 06-30-2008, 12:34 AM   #6
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+1 while I like the EMS idea more...
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Old 06-30-2008, 03:56 AM   #7
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i gotta say if it were up to me, i'd decide in favor of an EMS, too.

it's less work for the developers AND gives more credit to the individual developers, who would be less important in a group of developers, which you'd have in an open source system. also you could set up a donation system to reward developers for their efforts, which is a lot! xenakios wrote, that his extension is something around 5000-10000 lines of code - that's a massive amount of time spent! word is some people would like to pay xenakios for his work and even have silently done this.

also you could do some cool stuff like anonymous user statistics (optional of course!) or catching a 'reaperext://' protocol with REAPER, so you could install extensions right out of your browser.
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Old 06-30-2008, 03:58 AM   #8
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I like option 2/EMS as well, it lets the developers work at their own pace, and the users free to pick and choose what they want to incorporate.
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:34 AM   #9
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If we think REAPER will go down this route, then of course there has to be some form of EMS.

I suspect most readers are not seeing the difference between an Ext. and a VST ... so, many views, but not many comments!

Would you see something like the Ext. stuff in OpenGL as a reasonable model?(another Rea-blah word!) Perhaps we need some core REAPER calls to test if an extension is loaded? Maybe a list box of which extensions are available on the users' system - and then select to load - as well as querying which extensions are available on-line (if there's a live connection) and presenting that list for d/l and stashing.

It sort of has to have some good support in the core to be successfully managed ... in the end, not much is really needed though as even the EMS part could be an Ext.... recurse ...

Some consistent naming, with perhaps a registration system as well? A feature of the "developer website"

Just some thoughts, but you can have a +1 as well ...

and of course you are totally paranoid, everyone's out ot get you .... mwuh ha ha haaaa ;-)

Cheers

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Old 09-19-2017, 01:26 AM   #10
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Reaper badly needs an extension manager that periodically checks for updates. A lot of great functionality in Reaper relies on third-party extensions and requiring users to manually update stuff usually means most users are not up to date.

I've come here from the colour picker extension thread, where I argued Cockos devs should also incorporate some extensions into the DAW to become core functionality. I bet a lot of first-time users will fire up Reaper and go "meh", because, frankly speaking, a product that doesn't impress within the first few minutes isn't going to attract much attention.
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Old 09-19-2017, 03:40 AM   #11
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Old 09-19-2017, 01:31 PM   #12
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Yep !

To prevent newbie questions like this one it would be very appropriately, if ReaPack would be installed out of the box with Reaper.

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Old 09-20-2017, 12:49 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoox View Post
I bet a lot of first-time users will fire up Reaper and go "meh", because, frankly speaking, a product that doesn't impress within the first few minutes isn't going to attract much attention.
Haha.

Are you saying Reaper didn't attack much attention? It looks like it did, despite what you're saying.
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Old 09-20-2017, 03:14 AM   #14
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Reapack and perhaps even the SWS Extension(ReaPack might offer that for download and installation one day) could show up on the Registration nag screen, or when the application is first started.

Or a new version of Reaper is installed, and it pops up "ReaPack makes new useful stuff easy to get, use and auto-update. We recommend it but *legaleseblahblah*"

Place it everywhere all users have a good chance of finding it. The amount of problems that extension solves is beyond ridiculous.
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Old 09-20-2017, 05:04 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Haha.

Are you saying Reaper didn't attack much attention? It looks like it did, despite what you're saying.
What I meant is: it could attract more users.

If a user who's very familiar with, say, Cubase, one day decides to check out Reaper just to see what all the fuss is about, he will have expectations before he's even fired up Reaper for the first time, and he'll probably be very picky, because switching DAWs is involves an adaptation period that a lot of people are not willing to endure. Embracing Reaper will only happen if it's good and then better.

Conversely, users who are just getting into audio production and have never used a DAW will not know what they need, and are going to be judging the DAWs that are available for demoing based on the functionality that's immediately available on the surface. This is where Reaper could improve, just bringing all that goodness closer to its users. Because there is a lot of goodness in Reaper, but you have to, often laboriously, coerce it out.
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Old 09-20-2017, 05:16 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
Reapack and perhaps even the SWS Extension(ReaPack might offer that for download and installation one day) could show up on the Registration nag screen, or when the application is first started.

Or a new version of Reaper is installed, and it pops up "ReaPack makes new useful stuff easy to get, use and auto-update. We recommend it but *legaleseblahblah*"

Place it everywhere all users have a good chance of finding it. The amount of problems that extension solves is beyond ridiculous.
1000% agreed.
Well put.
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