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View Poll Results: Is it time for tools?
Yes. Optional tools would be good. 33 53.23%
Yes. Only without a toolbar, modifiers 4 6.45%
No. People need to learn keystrokes. 17 27.42%
No. Not over my dead body. 8 12.90%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-14-2008, 05:34 PM   #1
Lawrence
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Default The "T" Word

Is it time to revisit the possibility of optional mouse tools?

Forget about subjective opinions of speed. This is just focused on the much larger (and growing) user base and where the relative opinion is now.

Tools or no tools?
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Old 08-14-2008, 05:37 PM   #2
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I probably wouldn't make extensive use of such a thing, but if it makes people work faster it's a good thing in my book.
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Old 08-14-2008, 05:47 PM   #3
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I am a bit undecided how to vote...In my opinion some kind of more restricted editing modes are beginning to be a necessity. There's too much stuff happening in one mode (the only one, that "does it all", that Reaper has) already. One possibility could be to have more modifier keys for mouse actions available. (Only Ctrl, shift and alt are a bit limited...) Toolbar is a non-issue, if it's hideable and all it's modes can be accessed via keyboard shortcuts too.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:04 PM   #4
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not good enough options

you forgot

"i dont give a rats ass"


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Old 08-14-2008, 06:18 PM   #5
Lawrence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
not good enough options

you forgot

"i dont give a rats ass"


Hehe... good one.
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Hehe... good one.
actually honestly it would be cool, cause there ARE people who desire it.

I just dont care for em atm
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Old 08-14-2008, 06:48 PM   #7
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I would like them if only for toggle editing... a little lit icon letting know what mouse clicks will do...

I voted yes. but I'd prefer to reload the mouse!

.t
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:36 PM   #8
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I already have 'tools' in Reaper

(and I apologise for not putting up the tutorial yet )
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:19 AM   #9
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Default I think I would be far less efficient with them

If I had tools I would probably click on the icon more often then I should and be less efficient. They are good for repeating related tasks, but it is still best to change tools with the keyboard and not an icon.

I am definitely against anything that would benefit the newbie first time user at the expense of the 6 to 18+ hours a day user. It would be like learning to ride a bike and then not being able to take the training wheels off. I used tools all the time, the slow click on the icon way, and thought nothing of it, until I saw someone else run a daw like a auditor works a calculator, and it really opened my eyes. If I had never experienced that, I would probably still be changing tools with the mouse today, unless I was more or less forced to work the right way with Reaper.


I think this feature would be great for a plug-in made in house or by a user, then we can all be happy. maybe

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Old 08-15-2008, 12:52 AM   #10
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Yes, but completely optional and fully hideable.

Some people like mouse controls and right-click menus.
Others like keyboard commands.
Others like menus, tools and toolbars.

But the toolbars should be fully customisable/visible (a la MS Word); you could also extend this customisation to the menus.
- list every single action in the Action List, even the most basic
- every action should be doable, in theory, in all three modes,
- create your own keyboard shortcuts, menus or toolbars or all 3,
- position and populate the menus and toobars from the Action List.

This would also be the opportunity to stand back a bit and look at the optimal positioning of the actions on menus. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sometimes forgets where some menu items are located.

My 2p
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Old 08-15-2008, 01:02 AM   #11
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No tools.
They eat screen space and cost time to navigate to. (The ones that are already there could be removed too...)
Besides that: where is the difference between learning keyboard shortcuts and learning the meaning of cryptic little pictures?
As an addition to keyboard shortcuts i'd prefer mouse- and rocking gestures.
Sometimes the mousecursor could be a little bit smarter.
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Old 08-15-2008, 03:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zappsunzorn View Post
If I had tools I would probably click on the icon more often then I should and be less efficient.
? no offense but, self control much?

TEH TOOLBAR MADE ME DO IT!!!
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Old 08-15-2008, 04:22 AM   #13
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I don't understand why people think tools= toolbar icons= thousands of mouseclicks.

I'd be perfectly happy with something like eg typing 'S' and the cursor changes it's look to a scissor and lets me do my cuts until I hit 'S' again.
Ever seen the all-purpose mouse tool of samplitude? (I don't know how that thing is called right now.) That one is genius and doesn't need any screenspace or additional clicks as all. The difference is just that you see at all times what your mouse is going to do when you click it.

The keyboard use in Reaper is just inflatious and with every new feature they will get more. I for one am at my very edge at memorizing the keys and often feel like I am typing letters instead of editing music. Still I haven't assigned half of the actions I needed for working efficient, that's just scary.

And when I come home after two weeks at work I can't make the simplest move in Reaper without looking up the darn key assignes every freaking minute.

Sorry for the rant, but that is just the point in Reaper that keeps freaking me out.

[/rant]
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Old 08-15-2008, 04:30 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
I'd be perfectly happy with something like eg typing 'S' and the cursor changes it's look to a scissor and lets me do my cuts until I hit 'S' again.
i would prefer it to be made a different shortcut --

this is great for multiple cuts, but i find that i usually do one or two cuts at a time -- so having to make 2 clicks for one action would be wasteful for me...

i like the S button the way it is -- for instance.,
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Old 08-15-2008, 05:38 AM   #15
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NO! I am already struggling to keep up with this ridiculous and un-Cubendo rate of new functions etc.

But then I am getting old it seems, I no longer want to learn new software, so perhaps my opinion is in the minority
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:02 AM   #16
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Quote:
i find that i usually do one or two cuts at a time -- so having to make 2 clicks for one action would be wasteful for me...
Agreed.
Perhaps something that works like CAPSLOCK would be cool here.

Indeed split was not the greatest example for my point, though I sometimes don't really like that 'S' splits immediately without mouseclick. But well, at other times that is exactly what i need, so... I'm indifferent.
A better example would be velocities in the midi editor. Or a mousemode that only edits automation envelopes.

I guess I was turned into rantmode too quick. It's been the claim that tools need to clutter up the screen that brought me up. They just don't need to if implemented right. Mousemodes can be initiated by keycommands and indicated by the look of the cursor. That's what I initially wanted to point out before I was driven away. Sorry again.

Last edited by gofer; 08-15-2008 at 06:15 AM. Reason: added the quote to clear the reference
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Old 08-15-2008, 06:25 AM   #17
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6 mos. ago I would've been all over this, but now I'm not so sure.

This was one way:
Quote:
Originally Posted by moodswinger View Post
I've thought about FR'ing a TOOL Docker window, or "blank buttons" window, that could initially contain "beginner" commands then be changeable to put advanced user Macros in, but kinda thought it wouldn't really be considered as that's supposed to be one of the "editing features" and would essentially become unused as the user became more familiar with Reaper.

Technogremlin, whatever happened with this:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php?p=188997

taken from there:
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Originally Posted by moodswinger View Post
... that's why I thought someone with the experience (unfortunately not me) of other DAW UI's and this app (uh TG?? ) could set up a template just using the initial shortkey set-up, to make it so they don't have to "learn" this too, just use the app & the template to start using Reaper. Then "learn" RemoteKeys when you realize in Reaper what you would find it useful for individually. Not that I'm by any means a competent Reaper user at this point, but I already foresee a time that there are commands that I will use frequent enough to "want" a button because it will still be infrequent enough that I'll have to look it up probably everytime I want to do it...
I do agree this could still have it's uses tho'...
But another good point has been made
Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
...The keyboard use in Reaper is just inflatious and with every new feature they will get more. I for one am at my very edge at memorizing the keys and often feel like I am typing letters instead of editing music. Still I haven't assigned half of the actions I needed for working efficient, that's just scary.

And when I come home after two weeks at work I can't make the simplest move in Reaper without looking up the darn key assignes every freaking minute...
I've since gotten used to the Reaper way of doing things, (albeit still not proficient, I still fight to pick and click, then undo) I think my thoughts on this kinda stay the same as before.
If implemented:
1) should be in the docker, not taking up any additional screen space, and not even "activated" if user doesn't want/need it.
2) needs to be customizable (word?) to each users needs, so it works for everyone who finds a use for it. not just newbies and not just experts.

Just IMO.
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Old 08-15-2008, 07:48 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
I don't understand why people think tools= toolbar icons= thousands of mouseclicks.

I'd be perfectly happy with something like eg typing 'S' and the cursor changes it's look to a scissor and lets me do my cuts until I hit 'S' again.
Ever seen the all-purpose mouse tool of samplitude? (I don't know how that thing is called right now.) That one is genius and doesn't need any screenspace or additional clicks as all. The difference is just that you see at all times what your mouse is going to do when you click it.

The keyboard use in Reaper is just inflatious and with every new feature they will get more. I for one am at my very edge at memorizing the keys and often feel like I am typing letters instead of editing music. Still I haven't assigned half of the actions I needed for working efficient, that's just scary.

And when I come home after two weeks at work I can't make the simplest move in Reaper without looking up the darn key assignes every freaking minute.

Sorry for the rant, but that is just the point in Reaper that keeps freaking me out.

[/rant]
well said!
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Old 08-15-2008, 08:01 AM   #19
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To that point above, and not to digress into a debate... most daws that have toolbars that change the mouse cursor when you click them also allow assigning those to keystrokes.

For instance you could assign the scissor tool to "S" in Cubendo, hit S, see the scissors, cut away and then hit a key to get the arrow cursor back. I think most daws with toolbars allow that. Right click calls the pallet so you don't have to go get it if you don't use keys, it's always wherever the mouse is. You can hide the actual toolbar forever, or not even have one in Reaper, and still have the pallet available.

For me it's just easier to click the tool icon but I understand why some prefer the other method. It just seems that if you have to remember all the keystrokes for the various modifiers for the various tools... you may as well just not use tools. For me tools means I don't have to hit any keys at all for those functions ... which is the point... for me.

For me choosing a tool from a pallet/toolbar is no different from putting down a hammer and picking up a saw. It's not really a race, you pick the tool you need, use it and put it back.

Keystrokes are fine but it takes me (personally) just as long to look down and find/finger the keys as it does to click the tool icon. It would be nice to have both.

It's more a personal comfort thing for me I guess than a speed thing. I just don't hover over the keyboard for 4 hours when editing or mixing.

Just as a reminder that conventional toolbars need not ever be seen ... Cubase with no icons displayed and the right click tool pallet. There's nothing across the top of the application, all that stuff is optional including the right-click tool pallet.

I mean, Reaper is right-click crazy already anyway. It takes me long seconds at times to even locate something in those menus. Clicking a tool won't be a problem for me in that context.

Notice how many times I said... "for me" above. It's different for everybody I suppose.



P.S. Getting out of a tool (back to the arrow) is easy since the right-click menu has the arrow as the first choice. Your mouse is already right on it when the pallet pops up.

Reaper doesn't need a "toolbar" at all, maybe just a similar optional menu that changes the mouse cursor to match a function.

The only problem with that is that the right click menus are HUGE already.

Last edited by Lawrence; 08-15-2008 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:07 AM   #20
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Logic did this very convenient. Of course you could have a keyassign for every tool, but the method I used was: hit a key that brought up the palette of tools right under your mousecursor (i assigned that one to mousebutton 4) and select the tool you want. Hitting that same key twice reverted to the selection tool that was in fact a multi purpose mousemode. Together with the ability to have two tools at the same time at hand (independent tool for the right mousebutton) this gave me the fastest mouse editing I can imagine. (though this would be difficult if not impossible with Reapers right-click menue dependence, perhaps JCS should implement additional mousebuttons soon?)

[EDIT] I like this extra tool palette solution better than to extend Reapers rightclick menue even further as Lawrence proposed. They are huge enough at most places...[/edit]

No need at all for a cluttered toolbox, as the palette is only showing the tools necessary in the active window and only shows up at all when you need it as well as where you need it.

Totally one handed approach, leaving the other hand free for the Piano keyboard or the control surface. Plus I could leave my eyes at the point of interest instead of searching for a way to press CTRL, SHIFT, ALT and T simultaneously (ok, worst case scenario), if possible with one hand, so the other could drag the mouse. (not to mention the third hand needed to scratch my head while trying to remember the command)

And no need to memorize several keycommands for the different purposes, which means more braincells left for really special commands and more brainpower for the real task which should be:

music.

All this doesn't break nor disturb in any way the qwerty-approach that others here love, which I can understand and respect, but just don't really like to use myself.

Last edited by gofer; 08-15-2008 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:14 AM   #21
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Are people honestly saying they have assigned keystrokes to all of these functions, and can actually remember them all? The menus can't even fit fully on the screen below and that's just one nested menu of 6 in that one root menu.

No hope for me in that regard. It seems weird to me to even discuss how long it takes to click a tool icon given how long it takes ( - for me - ) to locate things in these huge menus.


Last edited by Lawrence; 08-15-2008 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:23 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Are people honestly saying they have assigned keystrokes to all of these functions, and can actually remember them all? The menus can't even fit fully on the screen below and that's just one nested menu of 6 in that one root menu.

No hope for me in that regard. It seems funny to me to even discuss how long it takes to click a tool icon given how long it takes ( - for me - ) to locate things in these huge menus.
Well.. are you honestly saying that you use all those functions?? I know I don't.
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:42 AM   #23
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I think that tool mode toggles would be killer. they would allow for much expanded features and depth of functionality to be available, temporarily in place of normal mouse functions:

I would like an eraser tool:
It's a simple toggle that allows me to use the left click to draw marquee+time selections (without changing the loop/time selection), the contents of which are deleted. Disengage the eraser to go back to normal behaviour.

- ctrl engages common erase: I see this as like a real time auto trim feature set. holding down CTRL while in eraser mode and hover the mouse over a an item you would like to erase. Reaper marks the spots that correspond to your current auto-trim settings.Right click up and down controls the threshold, Left and right controls the hysteresis. shift+right-click up and down controls the ignore silence shorter than amount; Left and right controls the make non-silent clips no shorter than value. alt+right-click up and down controls the leading pad value and left/right controls the trailing pad value all of these adjustments are reflected visually by a darkish-grey overlay indicating what will be deleted once set, left clicking erases those spots from the item below the cursor, and all selected items.


I would like a Split toggle that reloads the mouse with a whack of split functions:
with the split too enabled the modifiers are user definable:
- Left-Click is split directly below the mouse cursor not changing the current item selections.
- - if multiple items are selected then all selected are split at the time corresponding to where the mouse clicks.

- Alt-Left-Click Looks at the target item (below the cursor) and splits it into chunks equal to length of the first split; if the item is 5 bars long and the split length is equal to 1/2 bar, then the item is split into 10 equal segments. If multiple items are selected the same goes for them.

- CTRL+Left-click = Transient split. Holding CTRL displays lines over the item below the cursor (or selected items) indicating the transients at which the item will be split. Here right click drag up increases the transient sensitivity and right-click drag down decreases the sensitivity; Right-Click+ dragging L/R sets the transient manual-offset, allowing you to ignore the exact detected place of the transient and offset the splits left or right. Left click commits and the item below the cursor is split at the desired transients (or all selected items get split).
- a further extension to transient split: once the offset has been adjusted and set, holding shift+right-click L/R sets a secondary split mark for each transient. Enabling you to quickly split before and after every desired transient.

Now I envision tools as such!
When the basic tools are not quite deep enough to get the job done quickly, the the tool (activated via icon or KC) overlays a number of dedicated function and action on the mouse - like a dynamic re-loading of the mouse! As briefly and poorly outlined in the eraser and split tool modes above (I could go on like that all day: think of a time stretch mode that overlays tools such as add beat marker/move beat marker/move beat marker stretching contents... like the alt drag on roids...)

any many greetings
.t

edit: in the time it took to write this post... the thread has grown... L-Dawg posted a compelling image with an interesting question:

now tool modes would allow for related sets of these commands to be overlayed on the mouse. That combined with refined and polished versions of the eraser and split mode ideas above would, IMHO, take reaper to the next level again.

So, rather than a simple tools facility how about a mode facility. with some killer default modes and then user modes which allow us to temporarily remap the mouse!!!!
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Old 08-15-2008, 09:42 AM   #24
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Quote:
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Well.. are you honestly saying that you use all those functions?? I know I don't.
No.. not even half. When I do need one I have to go find it which is not unusual for any daw. It takes a few seconds or longer... no big deal.

Point being, choosing and releasing a tool is just 'another thing' of many that takes a second. No big deal in that context, but it always comes up anyway.

In comparison I spend a lot more time navigating menus in Cubase with the mouse doing other stuff than changing tools in Cubase. And certainly a lot in Reaper since the menus sometimes don't have any real pattern in some different places.

I can't remember 25 KC's so... I don't have a choice.

Just muting (or trying to mute) the inevitable speed discussion as it relates to mouse tools. It's kinda irrelevant in that context.

Last edited by Lawrence; 08-15-2008 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 08-15-2008, 10:56 AM   #25
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what's the difference between selecting 10 tools or remembering 10 keystrokes ??

you can make actions that can nearly behave like every cubasetool by using different lock settings.
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:11 AM   #26
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I like the thoughts Tallis expressed here. The same approach leads me to not talk about tools but rather about 'mousemodes' in my posts when it comes to Reaper and the t-word.

Perhaps this opens up the minds of those who implicate tools with those icon bars that tend to disturb the screen.

Actually (at least for me) tools is not those icons, but the behaviour of the mouse and (important!) the look of the cursor correlating to the task a mouseclick will perform. This method opens up new layers of tasks and possibilities while keeping stuff intuitive.

It needs not to stop at splitting or erasing.

For some tasks it frees up the mouse from very small hitpoints eg when editing midi velocities or envelope nodes which will make mouse editing much less painfull.

Imagine an envelope editing mode that keeps you from inadvertently selecting the item underneath (thus deselecting all nodes), could compress and expand the amplitude of selected nodes with one modifier, restrict movements to one direction with another mod, draws sinus or any other waveforms, lets you insert and choose new envelopes with yet another and whatnot else.

Putting all this onto seperate keys of the qwerty will soon let you run out of keys, I am sure.


Quote:
what's the difference between selecting 10 tools or remembering 10 keystrokes ??

you can make actions that can nearly behave like every cubasetool by using different lock settings.
Easy: for ten tools (an amount I don't think is needed) I only need to memorize 1 key that brings up the palette. If this can be a 4th mousebutton I don't need two hands. In that case I have ten free keys on the qwerty to bring up actions I will of course additionally need anyway for special purposes.

Last edited by gofer; 08-15-2008 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:24 AM   #27
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what's the difference between selecting 10 tools or remembering 10 keystrokes ??

you can make actions that can nearly behave like every cubasetool by using different lock settings.
Yeah, the discussion isn't about what Reaper *can* do. We know actions can do lots of stuff. It's about what it can't do that some users might prefer, like as someone stated above, hold a certain editing state (like splitting) for a period of time until you release it.

Again, I'm fine with Reaper's current keystroke method and it's proven to serve many users very well. The other thing would be optional.

We're not talking about duplicating Cubendo functions. Some of the tools in Cubendo do things that Reaper can't do and that can't be done with keystrokes. Not the discussion.

The discussion is really about *if* it (state-holding mouse tools) was done what *might* be the best way... the least intrusive to the Reaper ethos... and *if* it's even time to revisit that possibility.

It may not be. It may never be. Users rule here which is a good thing.

That's why I tried to preempt any speed discussions. It's more about preference than speed.

I'm not trying to convince anyone *they* need tools, I'm just occasionally (every few months or so) revisiting the issue to see how many of the new forum members might prefer them. It seems that the balance of those who might prefer to have both has shifted a bit. Maybe.

I think the last poll was soundly thrashed.

Last edited by Lawrence; 08-15-2008 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:36 AM   #28
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The clutter that menus can create is exactly the reason I do not currently use Xen's Extensions...they're great, but the drive me crazy...the clutter. AHHH!
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:44 AM   #29
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The clutter that menus can create is exactly the reason I do not currently use Xen's Extensions...they're great, but the drive me crazy...the clutter. AHHH!
Just put the commands you need under keyboard shortcuts Using the menus is very slow and discouraged!

I wasn't originally even planning on any menus at all...It could be I might make the menus configurable (to show only the needed commands) but no point in doing that before we know if Reaper itself gets a menu managing system or not.
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:02 PM   #30
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X's extensions are fabulous. The take mixer is still my all-time favorite.

There's lots of things in Reaper that are quite unique.

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Old 08-15-2008, 12:06 PM   #31
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X's extensions are fabulous. The take mixer is still my all-time favorite.
Oh damn, that would need some love for the GUI and features...
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:31 PM   #32
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Oh damn, that would need some love for the GUI and features...
X, think about it. You created something that afaik doesn't exist in any other daw.

Very cool. Especially along with per-item FX.
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:40 PM   #33
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Xenakios' X-tensions are X-ellent!

In fact he has successfully created the first user defined editing mode.

That is right. Reaper already has several edit modes:
Main; Recording Alternate; Midi Editor; Event list... and now ReaBase.

the problem with these modes (all except for Xen's) is that they are too vast and vague. I except Xen's as it applies to his new x-tension only.

What I propose is this: the Cockos Dev team should create several Deep-Editing Modes that are turned on and off with a toggle like like caps-lock. Cockos should create a dedicated splitting mode (that incorporates the brilliance that is here: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=23). Then JCS should develop a Mode editor that becomes a new page of the actions window.

the mode editor should allow the use to create, name, save, import/export, copy and delete modes. It should allow assigning of a toggle Key. It should allow temporary remapping of all mouse buttons and mouse buttons+modifiers (those not changed retain their defaults). It should add the mode name to the action list drop-down so that it can be expanded upon like the main, midi editor, etc...

This would allow for total user customization of the Reaper experience, while maintaining the toolless environment for those who want it.

and it would be cool
.t
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:41 PM   #34
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Of course, in my case, I absolutely abhor, despise, hate, loathe, scorn and deride the use of those Idiotic Function keys. (The person who invented them should be tortured hung and shot... as well as whoever invented rebates )

I would much rather have a few icons to click on than to ever be forced (ever again) to memorize idiotic nonsensical function-key sequences. I did too much of that crap back in the Eighties (the Stone ages) before modern user interface concepts were developed.

Of course, having the ability to turn off the "tools" is needed for those ignorant unthinking souls who happen to feel opposite the way I do.

And did I mention that I do not like function keys?

(...Sam I Am)

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Old 08-15-2008, 12:58 PM   #35
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ok, quick comparison with the whole tools vs no tools in relation to speed/productivity etc etc. i use podium(tools) and i use reaper(no tools). i have been using them both for about the same amount of time(about a year) and i seem to work faster in an environment with tools(so podium). i must admit i don't really notice how many mouse clicks i make. i find with reaper i am constantly looking down at the keyboard to carry out certain actions and, for me, this slows me down somewhat or at least it feels like it's slowing me down. i expect if i am still using reaper in 10 years the whole keyboard thing will become more instinctive but i think there should be optional tools, especially for the benefit of those coming from daw's with tools.

my 2 cents...
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Old 08-15-2008, 01:02 PM   #36
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Forget about subjective opinions of speed.
haha sorry! just got right on in there didn't i...
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Old 08-15-2008, 01:03 PM   #37
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Of course, having the ability to turn off the "tools" is needed for those ignorant unthinking souls who happen to feel opposite the way I do.

.
SARCASTIC JOKE! ^ (before people come out firing on the crowd with muskets )

I'm still trying to grasp the entirety of T's suggestions above... my head is spinning.

Tools aside (and hindsight being 20/20...) I might suggest to any future dev making a new daw that most any icon be optionally hidden and re-ordered, at least in the upper regions of the application and in the TCP.

Cu-Devil is vastly configurable in that regard. It's staggering (and very helpful) how you can show, hide, and move things around and store those sets.

Given Steiny's "everything but the kitchen sink" approach to ad graphics, I don't think many people have actually seen their daws stripped down to the bare UI essentials.

It's surprisingly clean when you do that. I'll post a graphic in the FR board later.

Last edited by Lawrence; 08-15-2008 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 08-15-2008, 07:36 PM   #38
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Given Steiny's "everything but the kitchen sink" approach to ad graphics, I don't think many people have actually seen their daws stripped down to the bare UI essentials.
Well, I must admit that, even given my totally "laid-back" and "chilled-out" response above, there is a distinct possibility of having TOO MUCH tool clutter. Avast ye Mateys! (talk like a pirate day is approaching)

If there are to be tools they should be categorical with a right click revealing the many sub-tools. That should work for us "Sub-Dudes".

And of course, they should be suppressable to make the seething unwashed masses happy.



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Old 08-15-2008, 08:04 PM   #39
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tools are for tools
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Old 08-16-2008, 06:05 PM   #40
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Yeah, the discussion isn't about what Reaper *can* do. We know actions can do lots of stuff. It's about what it can't do that some users might prefer, like as someone stated above, hold a certain editing state (like splitting) for a period of time until you release it.

Again, I'm fine with Reaper's current keystroke method and it's proven to serve many users very well. The other thing would be optional.

We're not talking about duplicating Cubendo functions. Some of the tools in Cubendo do things that Reaper can't do and that can't be done with keystrokes. Not the discussion.

The discussion is really about *if* it (state-holding mouse tools) was done what *might* be the best way... the least intrusive to the Reaper ethos... and *if* it's even time to revisit that possibility.

It may not be. It may never be. Users rule here which is a good thing.

That's why I tried to preempt any speed discussions. It's more about preference than speed.

I'm not trying to convince anyone *they* need tools, I'm just occasionally (every few months or so) revisiting the issue to see how many of the new forum members might prefer them. It seems that the balance of those who might prefer to have both has shifted a bit. Maybe.
Reaper already has tools anyway - a keystroke is still a tool, its just not a visible one but one that relies on memory instead. What it gains in terms of reducing temporal load it loses in terms of increasing cognitive load. Different people will have preferences for each approach but the best interfaces should seek for a balance of cognitive and temporal loads and to maximise the user's motivation to interact with the interface and one way to do this is to provide some basic visual affordances and cues - this is all basic ergonomics. Personally I prefer not to have to poke around in menus to find some hidden away command and I also find it hard to remember more than a few basic keystrokes so I like to have what I need in front of me.
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