Old 01-25-2022, 10:31 AM   #521
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Kinda running out of steam here lol. Hope we get FX Containers, they're super useful as you can see in the dozen examples lovingly put together on the thread before it turned into Socrates' bath house.
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Old 01-25-2022, 10:46 AM   #522
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Its a nothing. Its like when people +1 feature requests.
Curious, why is adding +1 to a feature request “nothing”? As far as my reasoning goes, if I was a dev and cared about my user’s wishes, when it comes to complex, new features that may take considerable development effort and time, I would prioritise those in which many users show interest. Why waste months to please 1 user? But if 100 users show interest in a feature it means that probably many more outside the forums would like it too and it may be worth the effort/time.

As far as commenting +1 to a feature request it is IMO the quickest way to show support and the easiest for someone (eg. the devs) to see when check out a thread. They don’t have to waste time reading wordy comments that don’t have anything to add about possible approaches to implementation and instead immediately see ‘this is one more user in favor of this’. If a thread is full of +1 from many different users it can be seen at a glance that the request is popular and worth dev time.
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Old 01-25-2022, 10:50 AM   #523
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If your toolbox consists of a hammer and nails and suddenly trends in the industry have resulted in way more usage of screws over nails I don't think it's off-base to hope they add a screwdriver.
I'm agreed! Exact!
Many people starting work in a DAW don't know exact workflow they need.
They can get good workflow at first time, but world is changing, and after years people will have a list of functions they need.
Reaper is an instrument for sound work and it created for industry use, or not? So, industry tendentions should have influence on Reaper's growth, that gives to users a moral right to wait a similar stuff.
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Old 01-25-2022, 10:50 AM   #524
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Curious, why is adding +1 to a feature request “nothing”? As far as my reasoning goes, if I was a dev and cared about my user’s wishes, when it comes to complex, new features that may take considerable development effort and time, I would prioritise those in which many users show interest. Why waste months to please 1 user? But if 100 users show interest in a feature it means that probably many more outside the forums would like it too and it may be worth the effort/time.

As far as commenting +1 to a feature request it is IMO the quickest way to show support and the easiest for someone (eg. the devs) to see when check out a thread. They don’t have to waste time reading wordy comments that don’t have anything to add about possible approaches to implementation and instead immediately see ‘this is one more user in favor of this’. If a thread is full of +1 from many different users it can be seen at a glance that the request is popular and worth dev time.
Yup. Other DAWs have entire teams dedicated to exactly this, and I was just embracing that yup Reaper is different than the rest and they do things their way, but the FR Tracker was at least a structured way to "keep with the times". Reddit is literally based on an upvote/downvote system, and it's not perfect of course but we happily let Reddit prioritize/police its content based on this "+1/-1" system, and it seems to be working out pretty well.

fwiw there's an entire big-dollar subset of the plugin industry dedicated 100% to creating FX Container presets/instruments/fx packs for Ableton/FL etc. And they are amazing.

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Old 01-25-2022, 11:02 AM   #525
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If what you got out of my post was that I think FX Containers are on par with text messaging, then I dunno what else to say. No example is perfect.
No. But your's was spectacularly imperfect.

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and clearly my point is that the industry dictates what is standard - as clearly evidenced that every other DAW has this.
And if you read what I (and WT) have been trying to say, "industry standard" has no value in this discussion. A good feature is a good feature and the dev team are smart people. They don't need you to "scare" them into thinking "Oh no. We're not going to be industry standard. Time to fix the software".
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:07 AM   #526
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No. But your's was spectacularly imperfect.



And if you read what I (and WT) have been trying to say, "industry standard" has no value in this discussion. A good feature is a good feature and the dev team are smart people. They don't need you to "scare" them into thinking "Oh no. We're not going to be industry standard. Time to fix the software".
The example is literally perfect save for the fact that FX Containers aren't as central to a DAW as texting is to a phone (of course). Every other point is solid and well thought through, and carry the actual purpose of the example. Focusing on "FX Containers and texting aren't the same" and disregarding the entire rest of the post just seems bad-faith and kinda low-hanging strawman fruit.

Nobody's scaring anyone, but we're literally on a FR forum and we're all FR'ing away cause you miss 100% of the shots you don't take!

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Old 01-25-2022, 11:20 AM   #527
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And cool, guess the devs randomly fluked into every other industry standard given that they apparently don't care lol.
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:22 AM   #528
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In the meantime we're hobbling one together in the Scripting forum.
And here is where I see the disconnect in tone.

I see this (the ability to script) as a feature. I fear you see it as a negative or a poor performance by REAPER.

Back when I use to take the train to NYC each day, I would notice things that were almost cinematic and beautiful. The train has openings every 15 feet or so to enter. And if it's crowded on the platform, people would line up hoping it would open up to them and they could get right on. Rather than having to line up a few feet away and maybe not find a seat.

So I once noticed a businessman standing there very impatiently and upset. Needing this opening to land right where he was standing. A few feet away was a dad and a young girl. Maybe 7 or 8 years old. He obviously told her about the train opening so they made it a game. Hoping it would open up right where they stood.

So the train arrives, the doors open and they are far from the dad and child and the businessman. I take notice that the businessman's day is ruined. He smacks his paper against his hand. It's the start of his terrible day. But the dad and little girl found it hilarious. Sure, they wanted to win this game but playing this game was so much fun, they didn't care. They have a glorious day ahead of them.

Same outcome, different experience.
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:27 AM   #529
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The FR tracker was a nice idea and an attempt at giving FR‘s and bug tracking some structure, but it turned to be a nightmare for everybody involved maintaining it. Within no time almost all tickets in there got derailed by constant meta discussion, off topics and substance-less bumping - a bit like this thread, tbh.
We mods all did our best to keep signal to noise ratio reasonable, but ultimately it was just too much work, got on the nerves and was prone to cause bad feelings between users and mods. I still think it would have been nice if it worked, but it just didn‘t. Glad that nightmare is over.
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:32 AM   #530
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Good lord it's even worse in this thread. I sincerely hope the devs haven't wasted any time reading this.

At some point these discussions always seem to devolve into an intellectual pissing contest. Everyone getting so butt hurt that their carefully worded arguments aren't persuasive.

At any rate, the FR is reasonable and clearly there is already some progress towards it. Hopefully the essence of the request isn't too lost in all this noise.
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:34 AM   #531
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I'll try this again.

You own a phone, and curiously it doesn't have text messaging. It is, however, basically identical to every other phone otherwise - arguably better. That's why you bought it.

But it doesn't have text-messaging! And everybody is texting these days!
You notice yourself lagging behind because you have to do a voice call every time a simple text would have sufficed. 2-factor-authentication takes forever because you need a separate app for that, and it's coming up a lot these days. Everything is harder because texting is relied upon in more and more situations in society.

If this phone had some industry-redefining amazing new "text-killer" technology that explained its absence, this would be totally understandable. It might even be the reason you picked the phone!

But, it doesn't. It just straight-up lacks texting, inexplicably.


So in this scenario, are you saying "but every other phone has it, it is industry standard" is a bad argument?
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"Other DAWs do it and so should Reaper" - did you read my phone example? You reduced my super nuanced and reasonable example down to a tabloid headline.
Where's the nuance? That's just a very convoluted way of saying "I think this FR is important". Sure you do. To someone who doesn't think its important, it collapses. You flatter the FR by equating it to text messaging, someone else could see it as worthless, an external observer would have learned nothing.

The gap between "but every other phone has it, it is industry standard" and "some other DAWs have this FX thing" is a vast gulf, and an illustration of why this line of argument is so ineffective. Just make your case, make it once, make it well.
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:34 AM   #532
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disregarding the entire rest of the post just seems bad-faith and kinda low-hanging strawman fruit.
It's not bad faith though. I like the feature. I just disagree that it's "needed" in REAPER.

It's like my heated seats in my car. When I need them, I love them. But my car works just fine without them.

It's a "value added" feature. And more of a workflow option for people doing incredibly complicated things.
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:35 AM   #533
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And cool, guess the devs randomly fluked into every other industry standard given that they apparently don't care lol.
You should really read that book.
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:46 AM   #534
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Curious, why is adding +1 to a feature request “nothing”? ... ...As far as commenting +1 to a feature request it is IMO the quickest way to show support and the easiest for someone (eg. the devs) to see when check out a thread.
This is not a democracy, it is a place where the persuasive argument of one person can make the difference. An extra person can add additional persuasion to that argument. But '*1' or 'bump' just says that a statistically insignificant democratic event has just taken place in this non-democracy. There's 96,000 members of this forum, which is just a representation of the overall Reaper user base. +1? a few more +1s? Meh. Make a great argument though? Now we're talking.

Anyway, don't take my word for it, look back through history. They've never worked.
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Old 01-25-2022, 11:59 AM   #535
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This is not a democracy, it is a place where the persuasive argument of one person can make the difference. An extra person can add additional persuasion to that argument. But '*1' or 'bump' just says that a statistically insignificant democratic event has just taken place in this non-democracy. There's 96,000 members of this forum, which is just a representation of the overall Reaper user base. +1? a few more +1s? Meh. Make a great argument though? Now we're talking.

Anyway, don't take my word for it, look back through history. They've never worked.
+1
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Old 01-25-2022, 12:17 PM   #536
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So if all arguments have been made about a FR what do you do? Let it rot until everyone forgets?
If I search “how to do x in reaper” and find out it is not possible and there is a FR what do I do if I just “want it too”? I just say nothing and hope that eventually devs will kind of think “ah there was once a dude some time ago that had a good idea, let’s implement it”?

Of course we should try to not be obnoxious (this thread is a perfect example of how NOT to do) but I believe making/commenting a FR, describe as good as possible what is wanted and add your support / gently bump up FRs that you care about is the best way to keep something under the eyes of the devs and maybe at some point, if the FR just remains calmly present, the devs may think it is a good time to implement this.

It has happened with razor edit. People kept the FR alive for many years and eventually the devs implemented it. If people didn’t keep pushing it probably it would have been forgotten at some point and never implemented.
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Old 01-25-2022, 12:26 PM   #537
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So if all arguments have been made about a FR what do you do? Let it rot until everyone forgets?
If I search “how to do x in reaper” and find out it is not possible and there is a FR what do I do if I just “want it too”? I just say nothing and hope that eventually devs will kind of think “ah there was once a dude some time ago that had a good idea, let’s implement it”?
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...11&postcount=4

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It has happened with razor edit. People kept the FR alive for many years and eventually the devs implemented it. If people didn’t keep pushing it probably it would have been forgotten at some point and never implemented.
+1

Oh. Wait.

My suggestion would be to have one thread where the FR is outlined, with a poll and only additions to that feature exist in that thread. Then a separate discussion thread that is linked to the original so the the dev team only needs to see the original one.
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Old 01-25-2022, 12:50 PM   #538
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You should really read that book.
Legitimately will do lol, also throwing a lil sass out there is fun sometimes - which you can clearly attest to haha.
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Old 01-25-2022, 12:55 PM   #539
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https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...11&postcount=4


My suggestion would be to have one thread where the FR is outlined, with a poll and only additions to that feature exist in that thread. Then a separate discussion thread that is linked to the original so the the dev team only needs to see the original one.
If you're going that far, you might as well have implement a voting system with community editable descriptions and a discussion below.

What's wrong with bumping a feature request occasionally. Like once every few months at most.
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Old 01-25-2022, 12:59 PM   #540
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And here is where I see the disconnect in tone.

I see this (the ability to script) as a feature. I fear you see it as a negative or a poor performance by REAPER.

Back when I use to take the train to NYC each day, I would notice things that were almost cinematic and beautiful. The train has openings every 15 feet or so to enter. And if it's crowded on the platform, people would line up hoping it would open up to them and they could get right on. Rather than having to line up a few feet away and maybe not find a seat.

So I once noticed a businessman standing there very impatiently and upset. Needing this opening to land right where he was standing. A few feet away was a dad and a young girl. Maybe 7 or 8 years old. He obviously told her about the train opening so they made it a game. Hoping it would open up right where they stood.

So the train arrives, the doors open and they are far from the dad and child and the businessman. I take notice that the businessman's day is ruined. He smacks his paper against his hand. It's the start of his terrible day. But the dad and little girl found it hilarious. Sure, they wanted to win this game but playing this game was so much fun, they didn't care. They have a glorious day ahead of them.

Same outcome, different experience.
Yeah definitely misread me on this one, I have a compsci background and Reaper's scripting abilities are probably THE biggest reason I dived in head-first. It's the first thing I show off to people in sessions - they can't believe what's possible.

It is however a dangerously fine line between "here's the tools to customize your dream daw" and "hey you're handy, right? there's a couple holes in the drywall that need patching" and leaving it up to scripters to do so. And while I don't think that's ever the devs' intention, there's just too many instances of unrefined/inconsistent/abandoned behaviours to not notice.
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Old 01-25-2022, 01:27 PM   #541
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I never would have thought that people would oppose a feature that could reduce cognitive load immensely by just visually grouping elements.

Grouping is a fundamental concept in creative software and it needs to be provided on the most important levels. And the FX-Chain in a DAW is a very important level! (we see the "group concept" in many programms in many different creative fields--> Photoshop, Illustratior, Blender, Ableton, Bitwig, Reaper, AfterEffects, Windows Explorer, etc...). And there they serve sometimes different purposes and have different functionality. But they all share one common feature --> reduction of coginitive load, because our mind learns and works by creating groups all the time (it is called assimilation and accomodation ---> described by Piaget).

Kenny you just need to think of FX Container as FX-Group or FX-Folder? Similar to FolderTracks just on a different "level"... Groups/Folder on whatever level they are provided with, always reduces the cognitive load. e.g. I`ll bet, when you think about it, you probably could say many benefits that Folder-Tracks provide, compared to just even hierarchical structured tracks. And the more you think about it the more you realize how complex the resulting benefits can be by just simple grouping elements. (I would even say that Folder Tracks revolutionized the way of working in Reaper.) From this thought-experiment you could imagine the similarity of needs in the FX-Chain area which could be solved with "FX-Chain-Folder" aka. FX-Container. And the resulting benefits aren´t less complex either, quite the opposite I would say.

Today there is a need of grouping/foldering on the FXChain "level" ---> we need to change the hierarchy of the FX routing "dynamically" without messing with the routing-matrix. --> easy M-S routings, easy MultibandFX, easy FX-Layer, easy Instrument/Synth Layer.


In my opinion the benefits to the community of this FR is greater than the time that needs to be spent to realize it, and if it is even months. I would even say that FX-Folders/Container will be used by a huge amount of Reaper users and will become somehow standard in many operations that people solve differently at the moment.



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Old 01-25-2022, 02:14 PM   #542
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Legitimately will do lol, also throwing a lil sass out there is fun sometimes - which you can clearly attest to haha.
It is. But I try to use it less, when I want something besides a good laugh.

Point is, there's no benefit to saying anything beyond "This is a feature I would like, this is how it could work and this is how it will help me and other users".

Anything beyond that is a waste of everyone's time.
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Old 01-25-2022, 02:16 PM   #543
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If you're going that far, you might as well have implement a voting system with community editable descriptions and a discussion below.

What's wrong with bumping a feature request occasionally. Like once every few months at most.
I haven't followed what happened with the other thing they tried so I really shouldn't be the one to propose anything.

It's the dev team that has to read these feature requests so I assume they would or have created a system that works for them.
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Old 01-25-2022, 02:20 PM   #544
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It is however a dangerously fine line between "here's the tools to customize your dream daw" and "hey you're handy, right? there's a couple holes in the drywall that need patching" and leaving it up to scripters to do so. And while I don't think that's ever the devs' intention, there's just too many instances of unrefined/inconsistent/abandoned behaviours to not notice.
There are benefits to having a completely closed a system, a completely open source one and something in between, like we have here.

Every user has a right to feel that REAPER is not complete as is. We just don't have a right to have it changed to what's perfect for us.
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Old 01-25-2022, 02:28 PM   #545
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I never would have thought that people would oppose a feature that could reduce cognitive load immensely by just visually grouping elements.
I don't believe anyone is "against" this feature.

Someone has to create it, make it work, and eliminate any bugs that it causes or creates.

That person is NOT me.

I'm just reminding everyone that "Feature Request" is a two word phrase.

Request - an act of politely or formally asking for something

If you tie any expectations to your request, you're going to be unhappy.
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Old 01-25-2022, 02:45 PM   #546
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I don't believe anyone is "against" this feature.
Yes you are right, I would also say that nobody is in general against it. I maybe made a bad choice of words for what I intended to express.

And as you could read, when you read the whole FR thread, how my stance to this is and I never used manipulative words to try to pressure the Devs or what not... or even supported it. Quite the opposite.

I always said since site 1 (or 2) that we need to collect as many examples, ideas and perspectives as possible to this FR to make it easier for the Devs to realize it, whenever they feel it is right or even IF it is ever right.

I also would say and said earlier in this Thread that programming a software is also a creative process, and a creative process needs to happen on it´s own terms. When the Devs wouldn´t feel right towards this FR, then it wouldn´t become "Reaperesque". Therfore I would never demand a FR... I just try to make appetite by trying to write an as well-thought out post as possible that highlights needs of users. --> which then maybe could lead to some movement.

And FYI, :-) I gave up hope a long time ago... --> Watzlawick : "You cannot not communicate."

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Old 01-25-2022, 03:41 PM   #547
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First, thank you all for the most entertaining thread I have ever seen on the forum.

I almost feel silly with my own wish that we could develop the already existing Track Wiring into a true modular environment where I would do the majority of my editing and mixing without having to scroll thru tracks. But if I don't get it I will still function.
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Old 01-25-2022, 06:28 PM   #548
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I seem to have killed another thread...
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Old 01-25-2022, 06:30 PM   #549
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I seem to have killed another thread...
Nah nah... it is just the timezone.

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Old 01-25-2022, 07:15 PM   #550
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First, thank you all for the most entertaining thread I have ever seen on the forum.

I almost feel silly with my own wish that we could develop the already existing Track Wiring into a true modular environment where I would do the majority of my editing and mixing without having to scroll thru tracks. But if I don't get it I will still function.
FL Studio really nails this, a very cool way to work.
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Old 01-25-2022, 09:55 PM   #551
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My problem with FL Studio is that it looks like a warehouse floorplan. Can't stand to work in it. In Reaper I am using LCS Mahina theme and it is very easy on the eyes. It's easier to work where I feel relaxed and inspired.

I do like the FLS Patcher, though. Yes, it would be great to have it in Reaper.
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Old 01-26-2022, 02:36 AM   #552
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First, thank you all for the most entertaining thread I have ever seen on the forum.

I almost feel silly with my own wish that we could develop the already existing Track Wiring into a true modular environment where I would do the majority of my editing and mixing without having to scroll thru tracks. But if I don't get it I will still function.
I would not mix Track Wiring and FX wiring. Because track wiring is possible to replicate in a more cool way than it is. Fx wiring is impossible without core REAPER change.
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Old 01-26-2022, 04:30 AM   #553
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Fx wiring is impossible without core REAPER change.
So it's not even scriptable currently *facepalm*

Developers, can you give us some hope?
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Old 01-26-2022, 07:12 AM   #554
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Fx wiring is impossible without core REAPER change.
I really hope that Justin will give it attention
I tend to believe that great scripters like should get a VIP when it comes to feature requests because without you, Reaper is much less powerful for us.

Thanks for trying!
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Old 01-26-2022, 08:06 AM   #555
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I would not mix Track Wiring and FX wiring. Because track wiring is possible to replicate in a more cool way than it is. Fx wiring is impossible without core REAPER change.
Somehow MUX achieves this within a single track, though only with VST's. So it's possible. I kinda agree with both sides on this issue. I am currently mixing just fine using track busses to achieve this same type of FX chaining. But a single track modular ability would seem like icing on the cake.
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Old 01-26-2022, 08:16 AM   #556
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Developers, can you give us some hope?
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Old 01-26-2022, 10:58 AM   #557
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A very necessary feature from my point of view. I even stopped supporting other interesting, but less important FRs for the time being.
Also from personal experience, I make a config that completely emulate Ableton. A closed beta test is currently underway.
I have many friends who professionally use Ableton, among them there is a very large EDM star. I offered him to try my config for Reaper. He liked it, but it is precisely because of the lack of some kind of visual FX patcher/router that he does not risk switching yet. The guitarist of our group also needs an FX patcher/router.To be completely honest, he still needs the ability to open Ableton projects. But I can do this with the help of the c ++ extension. And while he is gone, he only edits the drums in Reaper.

So there are already at least three votes for this FR.

I would like that Reaper becomes more massive in the production of modern music! And just like razor editing a, it is needed to speed up and simplify the process.
Like a classic DAW, Reaper has just about everything and insanely more.

In my opinion, there was a misunderstanding in the discussion. Friends, try not to turn this topic into a farce or garbage! We are all on the same side and I am sure sooner or later it will be implemented.
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Old 01-26-2022, 12:45 PM   #558
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Originally Posted by nappies View Post
A very necessary feature from my point of view. I even stopped supporting other interesting, but less important FRs for the time being.
Also from personal experience, I make a config that completely emulate Ableton. A closed beta test is currently underway.
I have many friends who professionally use Ableton, among them there is a very large EDM star. I offered him to try my config for Reaper. He liked it, but it is precisely because of the lack of some kind of visual FX patcher/router that he does not risk switching yet. The guitarist of our group also needs an FX patcher/router.To be completely honest, he still needs the ability to open Ableton projects. But I can do this with the help of the c ++ extension. And while he is gone, he only edits the drums in Reaper.

So there are already at least three votes for this FR.

I would like that Reaper becomes more massive in the production of modern music! And just like razor editing a, it is needed to speed up and simplify the process.
Like a classic DAW, Reaper has just about everything and insanely more.

In my opinion, there was a misunderstanding in the discussion. Friends, try not to turn this topic into a farce or garbage! We are all on the same side and I am sure sooner or later it will be implemented.
Couldn't agree more. (aka +1 lol)

Just my observation: literally all of Reaper's "drawbacks" stem from it not being sufficiently geared/optimized towards creators.

The "big name" DAWs all have done insane amounts of market research, in-field testing, surveys, UI usability refinement with a focus on workflow, etc etc etc.

They all have DAW-specific content curated to play into their strengths, and they all have some specific "creator-driven" element that sets them apart. Ableton's racks, Cubase's TON of custom content, FL Studio's entire ethos, Studio One's totally streamlined Melodyne/Vocalign integration, etc.

Most would argue this is Reaper's strength - it's light-weight and clean. Couldn't agree more. The price that we pay for this however is that it'll most likely never attract creators in the same way as the other DAWs, and as an offshoot - the workflow will never fully reach its potential in that area.

Just my opinion, but if a group of diverse creators were chosen to give detailed feedback on what could be improved (across a variety of workflows) you would see this gap close very quickly and REAPER would shine FAR above everything, given that it truly is the greatest DAW of all time.

...it's just the quiet nerd DAW at the back of the class, waiting for highschool to be over so it can truly shine and be noticed. Give the nerd a haircut and things get better a bit faster lol.
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Old 01-26-2022, 02:02 PM   #559
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The "big name" DAWs all have done insane amounts of market research, in-field testing, surveys, UI usability refinement with a focus on workflow, etc etc etc.
And yet the DAW of your choice is REAPER...
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Old 01-26-2022, 02:06 PM   #560
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And yet the DAW of your choice is REAPER...
Yes, just imagine how good it would be if (insert the entire contents of my post).

You should see my custom scripts/actions collection! 99% of it is filling in workflow gaps. That Reaper lets you do this is unreal. That it's necessary is the purpose of my post.
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