Old 10-05-2019, 10:36 PM   #1
todoublez
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Default Multi Hardware Insert huge latency issue

hi, after I adjust my audio interface latency manually Reaper works fine with just on simple track with hardware insert, but if i slam to many on different track it got messed up real bad.
(especially on complex folder layers project) is thrr anything I need to configure ? plz help !!

im a former PT user, trying to switch my DAW to Reaper.
( sick of PT's evil HDX price... )

Back to the topic, in my case , is thrr any method I can make it work ?
should I upgrade CPU or where should I configure ?

thx for helping. Im desperate now. lol
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Old 10-05-2019, 10:46 PM   #2
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I don't suppose it makes much sense to post an obviously impossible wish multiple time in different forums .

-Michael
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Old 10-07-2019, 07:09 AM   #3
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When you say "Former PT user" it doesn't tell us much about what flavour of PT you used? If you're using that expensive HD/native thing where all the processing is on external DSP, you're not going to get that level of performance regarding routing latency and phase coherence from REAPER.. or any other daw for that matter. It's about the hardware + software combination and not about just the DAW.

If you've used just vanilla PT with some generic audio interface, then we can have a talk about how to deal with the situation.
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Old 10-08-2019, 03:12 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icchan View Post
When you say "Former PT user" it doesn't tell us much about what flavour of PT you used? If you're using that expensive HD/native thing where all the processing is on external DSP, you're not going to get that level of performance regarding routing latency and phase coherence from REAPER.. or any other daw for that matter. It's about the hardware + software combination and not about just the DAW.

If you've used just vanilla PT with some generic audio interface, then we can have a talk about how to deal with the situation.
Sry for I didnt make it clear.
Yes, I was using the HD/native thing..

but the flexibility of Reaper is like magic..
I really wanna switch to this DAW.
But seems the multi-hardware insert latency can't be solved for now?

anyway I'm quite interested in wat u've just said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icchan View Post
If you've used just vanilla PT with some generic audio interface, then we can have a talk about how to deal with the situation.
Are u saying if I'm working with only simple AudioInterface,
the latency issue can be solved ?
If so, I would love to sell my HDX and just use Reaper to do my mix then.
And I'd love to know how?
looking forward to yo reply soon.
thx.
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todoublez View Post
But seems the multi-hardware insert latency can't be solved for now?
The only "Multi ... latency" issue I am aware of is that Reaper rounds up the negative delay (to allow for the plugins PDC request) for each plugin that is in a row in in the same FX chain to a full multiple of the audio buffer size. (It should be possible to do the rounding only once for the sum of all required latencies. )

Is this what you are referring to ? (But as there are at least two buffers for audio I/O with each outboard equipment anyway, the rounding should not make a huge difference.)

I feel that the devs are not inclined to take care of this issue that is known since many years.

Hence using a small buffer size is the only way to reduce this.
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:40 AM   #6
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I could be wrong but i thought reaper had hardware insert delay compensation problems when running multiple inserts with ReaInsert plugins. Hoped they would have been fixed by now but maybe not ?

If you dont need live monitoring for synths etc and youve got two spare hardware outputs and inputs you could try not using reaInsert and route everything else to a stereo output -input round trip group just to make sure all tracks are same timing, monitoring the master as usual.

Not much use if you need live monitoring though...i thought this would have been sorted by now , as many people especially pros use hardware inserts.

If do need to use this method and need live monitoring only solution would be to reduce buffer size to minimum tolerated ( try 128 ) for master. Depends on number of plugins, vsti's, system specs , pc or mac and interface drivers for how low can go.

Last edited by hermitcrab; 10-08-2019 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
The only "Multi ... latency" issue I am aware of is that Reaper rounds up the negative delay (to allow for the plugins PDC request) for each plugin that is in a row in in the same FX chain to a full multiple of the audio buffer size. (It should be possible to do the rounding only once for the sum of all required latencies. )

Is this what you are referring to ?

no, I mean slaming many different outboard gear on different track,
not just a track with many ReaInsert on it.
the latency probelm can be caused especially thrrs many different hrdware insert on different tracks simultaneously.

sry Michel ,English arent my native languge, I'm not sure did I understand u correctly or not...
But thx for the info !
I'm very appreciated.

Last edited by todoublez; 10-08-2019 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermitcrab View Post
If you dont need live monitoring for synths etc and youve got two spare hardware outputs and inputs you could try not using reaInsert and route everything else to a stereo output -input round trip group just to make sure all tracks are same timing, monitoring the master as usual.
After trying ur method, it works,but I don't get it.
Why does it work?
now I only assign one outboard for each track.
I'll be testing it by adding more gear on random track, extending the signal chain randomly, and see how it goes.

thx for the info !
very appreciated.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:32 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todoublez View Post
After trying ur method, it works,but I don't get it.
Why does it work?
now I only assign one outboard for each track.
I'll be testing it by adding more gear on random track, extending the signal chain randomly, and see how it goes.

thx for the info !
very appreciated.
It works because you are using the same hardware round trip latency for all channels which is their input - output conversion and because you have removed ReaInsert which i remember reading causes problems with multiple hardware units.

This is disappointing to hear as it suggests Reainsert is still not fixed.

It will not work if you send tracks out to hardware and back in and then route them to a group which you also send out to hardware as that is then TWO round trips per channel compared to one for the 'everything else' group. In that case you could maybe try reainsert only on the group that is on its second round trip ( ie to hardware ) as you mention one instance of reainsert works as expected. This is in agreement with what i have read when previous people have tried to use multi reainserts.

I used to use a hardware mixer with groups to avoid this but am retired now.

The buffer setting in reaper is different and is cpu dependent as explained above. if your system is struggling and you dont need live channel monitoring, can use 1024 buffer size to allow increased time for processing. Very handy for mixing large projects.

Last edited by hermitcrab; 10-08-2019 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermitcrab View Post
It works because you are using the same hardware round trip latency for all channels which is their input - output conversion and because you have removed ReaInsert which i remember reading causes problems with multiple hardware units.

This is disappointing to hear as it suggests Reainsert is still not fixed.

It will not work if you send tracks out to hardware and back in and then route them to a group which you also send out to hardware as that is then TWO round trips per channel compared to one for the 'everything else' group. In that case you could maybe try reainsert only on the group that is on its second round trip ( ie to hardware ) as you mention one instance of reainsert works as expected. This is in agreement with what i have read when previous people have tried to use multi reainserts.

I used to use a hardware mixer with groups to avoid this but am retired now.

The buffer setting in reaper is different and is cpu dependent as explained above. if your system is struggling and you dont need live channel monitoring, can use 1024 buffer size to allow increased time for processing. Very handy for mixing large projects.
Understood...
Thx for the info,
Lesson learned.

I will stay open If thrrs anyone has different method on this.
Thx to y’all... very helpful guys.
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Old 10-09-2019, 09:20 AM   #11
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If you feel it is a bug with reainsert , write a bug report if have time.

I only ever tried one instance of reainsert and got different ping values every time for a straight round trip pass so something was up with it.i just remember it not being reliable like on cubase but cant remember if i checked again on reaper v5.

Apparently turning off anticipative fx processing for that track helps but does not solve. Dont have access to reaper at moment as laptop died but maybe other settings affecting it too ?.

Remember you can always just route return track to new track and nudge back in time manually after recording, but thats a pita to do.

Here are reainsert related bug reports : https://forum.cockos.com/search.php?searchid=14363911

Cheers

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Old 10-09-2019, 11:22 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermitcrab View Post
Here are reainsert related bug reports : https://forum.cockos.com/search.php?searchid=14363657
That link u provided doesn’t work, it shows:
“Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.”
Perhaps u can just give me the key words to search that would b cool.


I’m planning to send a signal out to another Mac which has PT HDX on it,
Rout that signal into ProTools, slam whatever amount of hardware inserts I want and then rout it back to reaper’s track...
But I never done this b4, Seems my templates(PT&Reaper) need to re-creat again just for experiment ,what a day. Oh my ;_;

Last edited by todoublez; 10-09-2019 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 10-09-2019, 11:48 AM   #13
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Link is being deleted. Just go to reaper bug reports forum and type reainsert into search at bottom of the page....

To me If its not pinging the same number each time on a straight round analogue trip ( interface output to input ) on a new project with one track and no plugins on current version then its not working properly.

Best of luck.

Last edited by hermitcrab; 10-11-2019 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 10-11-2019, 07:42 AM   #14
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Sorry, i get confused and been long time since did this. Just to clarify What i mean't to say was you can measure exact audio delay of interface round trip and use that in reaper settings so reainsert uses it also. You can then use reainsert on groups or multiple hardware / passes and should work. See here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=19HnMme0-2U

However it is a global setting and may not be sample accurate for different devices and will certainly be off for digital devices hence why ping function is needed.

This is instead of using reainsert ping function. If ping does work on one insert, remember it needs to be done on each instance.

Also need to test again if change project sample rate or buffer size.

Last edited by hermitcrab; 10-11-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 10-12-2019, 05:37 PM   #15
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Hi. I do use a lot of Reainsert in my mixes and i dont have much problems.
I use on windows 10 with a MOTU ultralite MK3 Hybrid, USB 2.0 .
What i generally do when i have too much PDC on a busy mix (generally high PDC on mix bus track) i spread my plugins and inserts to two or 3 main submixes.

Imagine this:

All Drums Bus - > goes to submixbus 1
All Guitars bus - > goes to submixbus 1
All vocals bus - > goes to submixbus 1
All fx Bus - > goes to submixbus 1

Submixbus 1 - > untick Master send - > go to SubmixBus 2
Submixbus 2 - > out of Master send - > goes to submixBus 3

Only Submixbus 3 goes to Master send. Like this you free only one track of having high count of samples.

i process submix bus 1 with eqs , outboard
then i process submixbus 2 with some other stuff
i normally leave submixbus 3 for the Analysers , phase and other analysis stuff.

Works for me.


Another thing you should check in your Reaper preferences is the Anticipative FX processing. Play a bit with this settings for your system. I got really nice performance result by changing some things here.
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Old 10-12-2019, 05:40 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hermitcrab View Post
Sorry, i get confused and been long time since did this. Just to clarify What i mean't to say was you can measure exact audio delay of interface round trip and use that in reaper settings so reainsert uses it also. You can then use reainsert on groups or multiple hardware / passes and should work. See here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=19HnMme0-2U

However it is a global setting and may not be sample accurate for different devices and will certainly be off for digital devices hence why ping function is needed.

This is instead of using reainsert ping function. If ping does work on one insert, remember it needs to be done on each instance.

Also need to test again if change project sample rate or buffer size.
I confess i got a bit confused with so many things on that video. Maybe the ferrofish drivers are not working OK on axiom system? i dont know.
I print my tracks passing in the outboard and they all match the original track in time and phase. Only using the reported latency from the driver.

i insert reainsert on the track i want to process, i untick the master send of that track. I send that track to a new track and record its output. Works good for me.
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Old 10-13-2019, 04:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepe44 View Post
I confess i got a bit confused with so many things on that video. Maybe the ferrofish drivers are not working OK on axiom system? i dont know.
I print my tracks passing in the outboard and they all match the original track in time and phase. Only using the reported latency from the driver.

i insert reainsert on the track i want to process, i untick the master send of that track. I send that track to a new track and record its output. Works good for me.
I'm sorry if anything remains unclear in my video and I'm happy to clarify anytime

While being my main ad/da converter, the Ferrofish is not Reaper's audio device. The Ferrofish doesn't even need a driver as it is a stand-alone Dante audio networking converter (analog/ADAT/MADI -> Dante audio-over-IP and vice-versa). The actual ASIO audio device is a Yamaha Dante accelerator PCIe card. While having "use audio driver reported latency" checked, I never got correct automatic latency compensation. Same result with an RME Babyface.

Which interface are you using and what happens if you go through the rtl test procedure?

.
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Old 10-16-2019, 04:21 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepe44 View Post
Hi. I do use a lot of Reainsert in my mixes and i dont have much problems.
I use on windows 10 with a MOTU ultralite MK3 Hybrid, USB 2.0 .
What i generally do when i have too much PDC on a busy mix (generally high PDC on mix bus track) i spread my plugins and inserts to two or 3 main submixes.

Imagine this:

All Drums Bus - > goes to submixbus 1
All Guitars bus - > goes to submixbus 1
All vocals bus - > goes to submixbus 1
All fx Bus - > goes to submixbus 1

Submixbus 1 - > untick Master send - > go to SubmixBus 2
Submixbus 2 - > out of Master send - > goes to submixBus 3

Only Submixbus 3 goes to Master send. Like this you free only one track of having high count of samples.

i process submix bus 1 with eqs , outboard
then i process submixbus 2 with some other stuff
i normally leave submixbus 3 for the Analysers , phase and other analysis stuff.

Works for me.


Another thing you should check in your Reaper preferences is the Anticipative FX processing. Play a bit with this settings for your system. I got really nice performance result by changing some things here.
Very helpful tips thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SonicAxiom View Post
I'm sorry if anything remains unclear in my video and I'm happy to clarify anytime

While being my main ad/da converter, the Ferrofish is not Reaper's audio device. The Ferrofish doesn't even need a driver as it is a stand-alone Dante audio networking converter (analog/ADAT/MADI -> Dante audio-over-IP and vice-versa). The actual ASIO audio device is a Yamaha Dante accelerator PCIe card. While having "use audio driver reported latency" checked, I never got correct automatic latency compensation. Same result with an RME Babyface.

Which interface are you using and what happens if you go through the rtl test procedure?

.
I thought it was very helpful thank you. I think driver reported latency seems to be a common issue and this is best solution regardless of which DAW used.


Cheers
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