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Old 07-03-2019, 12:07 PM   #1
ihsdisc10
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Default VERY UPSET - Copy Reaper Media - Bizarre behaviour/Loss of Projects

OK, I wanted to copy off of my main PC, all my REAPER media files. Seemed easy to (conceptually) do. Both for recovery (backup) AND to free up space by having the media on a drive.

I didn't know it was even a problem until losing (!!!!) several projects where bizarre behavior never seen before in the history of PC copy files from here to there-dom has occurred.

At best, I'm left with media WAV files, where I can't even remember the VSTs or effect settings and they don't run or import, and the RPP is useless, gone, blank.
In short, that project is dead, as bad as a PC or disk failure.

OK SYMPTOMS/DIAGNOSIS:
- Number one symptom - the dreaded and under-solutioned "Can't parse the Project" issue
- I followed prior thread advice how to see, and yes Both the .RPP and .BAK files open in Notepad as blank, DESPITE having size values (!!). How is that even a THING???

- Number two symptom - Copying does not even fully copy the .WAV's sometimes...and if it does, in the new location they're unusable, won't even import.

These projects play just fine as as the original project from the old location on the main hard drive.

I foresee two possible issues here, and BOTH are less than desirable.
1 - You can't migrate from the original location without a loss or corruption of some kind potentially, which is ridiculous to a fault
2 - If you created things in a prior version of REAPER, they won't "work", but again IF you migrate. If you open from the original location, they're fine A-OK.

This is beyond discouraging & infuriating, I've been using the product for my entire almost 10-year stint as a recording musician.
What happens if you can't do a migration, and run out of space, or upgrade the PC to another???
How about the continuity/recovery aspect? That I BELIEVE I'm doing the right thing, going out and buying a extra drive to copy to, and looking to rescue myself from a failure by copying all my hard made songs, and even seeing a match in file size and number of files, that I'm OK, but here I'm not because things got corrupted somehow.

What is the exposure and reaction to this?
I've seen it in other forums and answers seem to be short threads with "Sorry, bud" and "Don't Know what to tell you"
OMG HELP.
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Old 07-03-2019, 12:28 PM   #2
akademie
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Hello and welcome ihsdisc10,
I am sorry that only what comes immediately to my mind is that you have some hardware/system failure in your system. Is that new harddisk connected via USB?
USB can cause transfer failures (and also very often can disconnect itself and reconnect - again resulting in copy failures - It does not have to do with application but operating system). Reaper does not alter copied data (unless you do want it to specifically - like trimming silences, or convert to another format/samplerate etc.)
Have you tried to copy files directly in system with Explorer?

EDIT:
Also best practice would be not to MOVE but COPY projects as then you can compare them, test them and delete originals only after everything went OK.

Last edited by akademie; 07-03-2019 at 12:30 PM. Reason: additional tip
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Old 07-03-2019, 12:32 PM   #3
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That really sucks.

1. If you open the original project in Notepad, does it show properly? The format is basically XML, so it should all be human-readable aside from VST settings.

2. When you say that opening the copy in Notepad shows nothing, but the file has size, I'm pretty sure it's just Notepad failing to read whatever's there as a text-based file (which would certainly point to the file being corrupted somehow). Do you have anything more robust you can try with? (Notepad++ is free and quick to install)

3. You're copying the files just via the Windows file explorer, yes? I ask because it would seem to me like that's where something is going wrong, and not necessarily Reaper. Just a guess though.
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Old 07-03-2019, 12:52 PM   #4
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Rather than doing a drag-and-drop copy to another hard drive, I'd do it as a save-copy.

Open your original sessions with the media files in place and go to file-Save As, and choose the option to copy the media files into the new project. This is also a good opportunity to make sure your project settings are in a good place too. I have my project defaults set to store all audio files in a folder called "_media" for all new projects that creates itself in the same directory as the project file. This keeps everything nice and organized. I do the same with "_peaks" for my reapeak files.

Using this method, I've brought sessions from system to system and traveled all over to work in different studios and I've never lost a single audio file or had a single corrupted session. This has worked for me cross platform on both Windows and macOS systems as well.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akademie View Post
Hello and welcome ihsdisc10,
I am sorry that only what comes immediately to my mind is that you have some hardware/system failure in your system. Is that new harddisk connected via USB?
USB can cause transfer failures (and also very often can disconnect itself and reconnect - again resulting in copy failures - It does not have to do with application but operating system). Reaper does not alter copied data (unless you do want it to specifically - like trimming silences, or convert to another format/samplerate etc.)
Have you tried to copy files directly in system with Explorer?

EDIT:
Also best practice would be not to MOVE but COPY projects as then you can compare them, test them and delete originals only after everything went OK.
It is a new Flash drive 1TB, works fine with other saves, unrelated to REAPER.
I AM doing the copy/paste Explorer window method. I'm very IT, so the compare and watching the transfer and all are being done.
My issue was on the surface, it looked "right", transfer of the WAV, Peaks and RPP and BAK files with right file sizes.
Opening the file as a RPP gave the error. And the RPP opened in Notepad is blank, and opened in Notepad++ has a "NUL" repeated like forever, which "lies" as to the success of the transfer of file successfully, from a total file size point of view.
So I'd have NO way to know this was good.
Thank god I didn't dust all my work after the "success" of the copy overs.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:22 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Lokasenna View Post
That really sucks.

1. If you open the original project in Notepad, does it show properly? The format is basically XML, so it should all be human-readable aside from VST settings.

2. When you say that opening the copy in Notepad shows nothing, but the file has size, I'm pretty sure it's just Notepad failing to read whatever's there as a text-based file (which would certainly point to the file being corrupted somehow). Do you have anything more robust you can try with? (Notepad++ is free and quick to install)

3. You're copying the files just via the Windows file explorer, yes? I ask because it would seem to me like that's where something is going wrong, and not necessarily Reaper. Just a guess though.

Yes I'm side by side Explorer window copy/pasting the files , painstakingly LOL

My issue was on the surface, it looked "right", the paste of the WAV, Peaks and RPP and BAK files with right file sizes.
Opening the file as a RPP gave the error in REAPER.

And the RPP opened in Notepad is completely blank, and opened in Notepad++ has a "NUL" repeated like forever, which "lies" as to the success of the transfer of file successfully, from a total file size point of view.
So I'd have NO way to know this was good.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by analogexplosions View Post
Rather than doing a drag-and-drop copy to another hard drive, I'd do it as a save-copy.

Open your original sessions with the media files in place and go to file-Save As, and choose the option to copy the media files into the new project. This is also a good opportunity to make sure your project settings are in a good place too. I have my project defaults set to store all audio files in a folder called "_media" for all new projects that creates itself in the same directory as the project file. This keeps everything nice and organized. I do the same with "_peaks" for my reapeak files.

Using this method, I've brought sessions from system to system and traveled all over to work in different studios and I've never lost a single audio file or had a single corrupted session. This has worked for me cross platform on both Windows and macOS systems as well.
These are good suggestions, but that makes the backup both ridiculously long (by each project opening and saving), and I'd still now have to examine the project post-save, because I can't trust the "port" over of the RPP (would you?)

Just discouraging, and disheartening for what I did manage to lose, thankfully I haven't been as musically fruitful in 2019, only lost 3-4 songs but still.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:28 PM   #8
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And please disregard my snippiness, I appreciate you all sincerely for even replying, some boards are like "Screw you, Noob" or whatever.

This feels like some of my kids died, and on my watch, yet.
Just SMH sadly.
I'd expect better from such a great product.
I mean I see NOTHING wrong on my end, whether PC, USB, OS in what I tried to do, and the files even "lied" to me on surface about "Oh it looks great, you're all good, everything's safe and copied"
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:39 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihsdisc10 View Post
OMG HELP.
I would love to, but in that entire reply there really are no specific details of the exact actions you took (unless I overlooked). Yes, it would be nearly impossible for a file "copy" operation to lose both copies so exactly and precisely what steps did you take that caused you to end up where you are?
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:50 PM   #10
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This post about a similar issue in Notepad++ suggests that it might be a problem with disk caching. Not sure if it's applicable here, but in case it helps: https://notepad-plus-plus.org/commun...t-file-null/62
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:58 PM   #11
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That really sucks. I've witnessed label sessions nearly ruined because the engineer moved sessions vs copying only to wind up with a partial/corrupt session

DAWS: Logic 9, Logic X, Pro Tools

Everytime it was either something with the drive or the comps resources being sucked up during the transfer.

Last edited by Greg Savage; 07-03-2019 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:02 PM   #12
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A copy results in two copies.

Quote:
I AM doing the copy/paste Explorer window method. I'm very IT, so the compare and watching the transfer and all are being don
So I did overlook because ^this wasn't in the first thread. I'll look at the rest of the thread to see if there is an answer about the copy/past = two copies part but using Explorer takes Reaper out of the picture.

Did you delete the old copies?
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I would love to, but in that entire reply there really are no specific details of the exact actions you took (unless I overlooked). Yes, it would be nearly impossible for a file "copy" operation to lose both copies so exactly and precisely what steps did you take that caused you to end up where you are?
! - Opened 2 side by side explorer windows in Win7, one main hard drive Reaper Media folder, the other expectant folder in new flash drive usb
2 - Did painstaking copy from main and paste to new of folders, and spare files of RPP and such not already folderized
3 - Files looked good, copied correct names, types, and most important and DECEIVINGLY the file size
4 - Virtually NO RPP file copied over correctly, they are either NUL, or NUL and gibberish when I open in Notepad++. They are completely blank in standard notepad.
Only reason I found out was I simply tried as test to open a project from the new folder. By double clicking either the RPP or the RPP-BAK.
Got the dreaded can't parse error.
Horror ensues, like a little girl in a horror movie screaming.
Bu that was ME screaming
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ihsdisc10 View Post
! - Opened 2 side by side explorer windows in Win7, one main hard drive Reaper Media folder, the other expectant folder in new flash drive usb
2 - Did painstaking copy from main and paste to new of folders, and spare files of RPP and such not already folderized
3 - Files looked good, copied correct names, types, and most important and DECEIVINGLY the file size
4 - Virtually NO RPP file copied over correctly, they are either NUL, or NUL and gibberish when I open in Notepad++. They are completely blank in standard notepad.
Only reason I found out was I simply tried as test to open a project from the new folder. By double clicking either the RPP or the RPP-BAK.
Got the dreaded can't parse error.
Horror ensues, like a little girl in a horror movie screaming.
Bu that was ME screaming
Hmm... If to a USB drive, depending on how the OS sees - caching could be a culprit. However, something would have had to occur such as the drive being removed for that to occur and lazy write != not write anything for long periods of time, it's just lazy/delayed. Meaning seems odd that much data got corrupted if there were no accidental unplugs of the USB device or blips. I'll scan the thread more before asking more questions but something is up here. You should probably confirm disk-caching is enabled on that drive so we know.

Any chance you could zip & post one of the bad RPPs? The zip is to keep metadata from being changed during the move from your machine to mine. I doubt I can find anything new but a little curious. Did I see that non RPP files are OK?
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:12 PM   #15
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Another thing to try - what happens if you copy a project to a different location on the original drive?
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Hmm... If to a USB drive, depending on how the OS sees - caching could be a culprit. However, something would have had to occur such as the drive being removed for that to occur and lazy write != not write anything for long periods of time, it's just lazy/delayed. Meaning seems odd that much data got corrupted if there were no accidental unplugs of the USB device or blips. I'll scan the thread more before asking more questions but something is up here. You should probably confirm disk-caching is enabled on that drive so we know.

Any chance you could zip & post one of the bad RPPs? The zip is to keep metadata from being changed during the move from your machine to mine. I doubt I can find anything new but a little curious. Did I see that non RPP files are OK?
Hmmm...the destination usb 1TB flash is NOT write cache enabled, but the main PC IS.
And I can certainly zip & flip...how best to send to you, is that an option in-board, or send to mediafire so you can grab and d/l?

And yes, oddly the effect applies to associated project media files like WAVs as well, they are unplayable in external media player like VLC, and can't import into REAPER it won't take them. So the project is just dead

Thanks for your help so far!
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:18 PM   #17
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Nothing to do with Reaper if this is true:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ihsdisc10 View Post
These projects play just fine as as the original project from the old location on the main hard drive.
But if that's true then you also haven't lost anything, so I'm not sure what the problems is.

For big file transfers, I stay away from using the OS to do it. That should work, theoretically, but I've seen it not work many times in many ways. Thus, I use TeraCopy for big file transfers. It can verify the transfer afterward if you like (and other nifty things).

In any case, if you copied the files and the copies are not identical in size and function, then there is likely a problem with some of your hardware.

Again, if what you said above is the case, you should only need a better file copier (such as TeraCopy) to redo the backup successfully.

Keep in mind that it's not foolproof to move project folders to a different location unless the new location has the exact same paths, starting with the same driver letter. Plugins also may be relying on paths to samples etc. It's a good idea (as already mentioned) to do a save as with the "copy media" option and verify it opens from the new location.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:28 PM   #18
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ihsdisc10,
from what you are telling here, it seems like the drive is faulty or more probably "fake" in terms of capacity. (Did you bought it in Ali Express or such alike??

I have experience with bad microSD cards and even SSD disks, that are presented for example as 8GB SD, but they are in realty only 2GB and that remaining 6GB are only fake (kind of virtual). So you can copy there 8GB, everything goes OK, but when you then try to compare bit-by-bit original with the copy, then you reveal that only data that was able to fit somehow into that first 2GB are OK, but all of that 6GB is completeley wrong, because there are only some amount of memory for faking the capacity and that small part is still overwritten by incoming data to fictionaly fill that 6GB. That was just example for illustration (any size can be faked by different real/virtual sizes).
I have an application at office that can check the drive to reveal its real capacity.
I will send it tommorow, I hope.
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Old 07-03-2019, 03:30 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by ihsdisc10 View Post
Hmmm...the destination usb 1TB flash is NOT write cache enabled, but the main PC IS.
And I can certainly zip & flip...how best to send to you, is that an option in-board, or send to mediafire so you can grab and d/l?

And yes, oddly the effect applies to associated project media files like WAVs as well, they are unplayable in external media player like VLC, and can't import into REAPER it won't take them. So the project is just dead

Thanks for your help so far!
Interesting on the fact caching wasn't enabled but then again not because I'd almost say it is impossible for write caching to corrupt that many files in one go. I think you can zip it and it will be possibly small enough to attach to this thread, if not let me know.

Any chance AV could be involved, are you comfortable the drive you copied to is stable and healthy? Something is weird, me needs to think - if all files copied are corrupt it sounds as if the actual format or layout of sectors somehow got screwed up or something weird like that but that's me blowing out my butt.

Also, if you deleted the original files, and haven't made many changes to the drive, I'd try a free app like Recuva since you might be able to recover many of those deleted but otherwise healthy files (assuming again you haven't covered this and I missed). It really depends on how many writes have occurred to the copied from disk since this occurred.
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:15 PM   #20
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I'm so sorry for your troubles... and obviously something is very much amiss

The ideas suggested to try and copy to a new folder on your main drive to see it you get good copies is what I'd do first... if that works fine
it would suggest there is something wrong with the USB drive, eh?

Let me ask, How are you doing the original saves in reaper?
are you doing Save as to a Project name and also using the two check boxes at the bottom to create a sub directory for the project and also to copy all media into the project directory?
In your reaper project settings for media do you have something like
Audio Files in the top field? [I would] and then save that as the default project ...lower right corner button]
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Old 07-04-2019, 12:42 AM   #21
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I'm so sorry for your troubles... and obviously something is very much amiss

The ideas suggested to try and copy to a new folder on your main drive to see it you get good copies is what I'd do first... if that works fine
it would suggest there is something wrong with the USB drive, eh?

Let me ask, How are you doing the original saves in reaper?
are you doing Save as to a Project name and also using the two check boxes at the bottom to create a sub directory for the project and also to copy all media into the project directory?
In your reaper project settings for media do you have something like
Audio Files in the top field? [I would] and then save that as the default project ...lower right corner button]
If you just did a copy why is there a problem?
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Old 07-04-2019, 06:10 AM   #22
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Well, here it is "h2testw_1.4.zip" (that testing utility I mentioned in post #18 ).

https://www.experts-exchange.com/art...mory-card.html

Read the article, download zip file, unpack and make your own test on your 1TB drive to check it if it is OK or fake product with wrong capacity declared...

Last edited by akademie; 07-04-2019 at 06:51 AM. Reason: name of utility added
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Old 07-04-2019, 06:25 AM   #23
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Try using this tool from Justin for project backup.
http://cockos.com/pathsync/

To verify the backup was successful, hit the 'analyse' button once more after its finished. Any files that don't match will show up on the 2nd analyze.
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