The Flight of the Great Machine

[Fex]

Originally Posted by Consul

I use a lot of found sound, and I make my own instruments. Drums are no exception.

I like the theory, but I don't think it's working in this context. Your music will sound better if you play to your strengths. Composition, arrangement, synth programming are among your strengths. Percussion is not.

I preferred the earlier drum arrangement, though I didn't much care for the snare sound.

[Consul]

Just for grins, I decided to try some more vocals tonight. I figure the more practice, the better. This time, I decided to forego all the tricks that heretofore have not worked at all, and go purely by feel, something I'm not so good at, really.

Here's the result: http://soundcloud.com/darren-landrum...reat-1/s-Bhfi1

[emanresu]

Originally Posted by Consul

Just for grins, I decided to try some more vocals tonight. I figure the more practice, the better. This time, I decided to forego all the tricks that heretofore have not worked at all, and go purely by feel, something I'm not so good at, really.

Here's the result: http://soundcloud.com/darren-landrum...reat-1/s-Bhfi1

Wow, much much much better The 1st verse is working, the rest is just somewhat weaker at times. But when "i don't care" and later I don't like how you handle the notes - don't sing two long ones on "don't", make "don't" short. Then it sounds naturally and with more impact. Thats imho and just ignore if don't like.
I think you can still do better, if you got time then doesn't hurt to redo sometimes when feeling you know.. ready or something.

[Fex]

Originally Posted by Consul

I figure the more practice, the better.

You're right. This is sounding better and better. It has the required power without the strain.

The snare makes more sense in this context. I'm not saying it sounds right, necessarily, but it makes more sense.

There's a tone to the kick drum - I'm not quite sure when it became standard practise to stuff blankets inside them to suck all the life out of them, and it's nice to hear things done differently for a change, but I think there's a slight mismatch between the tone of the kick and the key of the song. Maybe pitch the kick down a tone?

This isn't a criticism of your composition or your performance at all, but I think the vocal could be perhaps be processed differently to fit the backing better. The same goes for the kick and snare, for that matter.

[dea-man]

There is nothing wrong with your voice.

Your voice is unique and that means it's distinctive and readily recognizable. A really great plus!

Every singer and musician I know, who constantly practices their instrument, inevitably increases their control and mastery of that instrument.

Your voice kinda reminds me of Al Stewart, of "Year Of The Cat" fame.

Because I mostly record my own music "alone", as a multi instrumentalist, I have learned to really take my time and practice each individual instrument, over and over, before recording. Then, after recording, I am readily accepting of the fact, that I will have to record, in most instances, more than a few times to get what I want.

[kindafishy]

Darren, are you freakin' kidding me?

I read through this thread and expected the vocals to be barely passable. I didn't hear the earlier versions, just this one, but I have to tell you... dude, you are waaaaaaaaay too hard on yourself. I think your voice has a really wonderful, unique quality to it. Reminds me of like... Phil Collins and Geddy Lee had some sort of medical miracle love child together with Carlie Simon.

All I hear is the need for practice. Couple hours per day to increase your confidence in controlling your voice the way you want to control it.

I definitely wouldn't get a different singer if I were you, I'd just keep plugging away at it.

I'll tell ya what... you familiar with sammydix? Have you heard his stuff? I collaborate with him a lot. He and I met each other on the forums here. I was a fan of his before we started writing together. Anyway, check out some of his stuff - just look up his username or you can hear stuff we did together in the links in my sig. He practices all the time. All the time. He's a natural, yes, but he also works damn hard at it, and it shows (IMO). I'm just bringing this up to say that even guys who are 'born with it' still work at it. Nobody is an exception.

Earlier in this thread, you sort of alluded to vocals being the last piece that you just sort of throw in at the last minute before finishing and releasing something. In my opinion... this is a huge, huge mistake. Vocals should be treated as the single most important aspect of a song. Think of your favourite songs, that you love because of the musicianship and the excitement and the perfect melding of music and voice. What do you do when you listen to it? You sing along. If you are trying to describe the song to someone else, what do you do? You quote the lyrics or you sing it a bit. The human voice is the most perfect and complex instrument that exists. It is the one aspect of music that everyone can relate to and it ties everyone together with a single common, shared element.

It is also arguably the most beautiful, most thought provoking and most emotionally provoking instrument that exists.

...and I'm a hard core guitar-god-loving, six-string slave. The above was very hard for me to come to terms with. I still mix my guitars too loud, but I'm letting go of it. You know, I've never been to an concert where 50,000 people are all air drumming the same beat (okay, well maybe Rush), but at every show, nearly the whole crowd is singing along at one point or another (even Rush).

Anyway, enough of my yammering, I really like the song, the vocals and the melodies (both musically and vocally).

Cheers, man. You do have a lot of talent, and I'm glad that I get to hear the music that you are choosing to share.

[fearnot]

I agree with everything Dea-man and Fish said. I didn't hear the 1st version though either. But I think you have a very distictive voice also. One that with maybe a little more confidence will be as good as anything else out there. It's really all in ear of the beholder. You know, a band I can't stand might be loved by everyone else. Doesn't make me or them right or wrong. I know you know all this. I'm just saying it out loud to encourage you to keep on and keep your music out there. I enjoyed the song.

I think it was Fex that mentioned how he enjoyed the sound of the kick drum. I second that. In fact I think it really pushed the whole song. It almost sounded like timpani or symphonic drums or what ever the hell you call it. Anyway I dug it.

Also I would recommend listening to Sammy's music as well. I enjoy every song I've heard from him. (As well as many others on this forum). Very versatile and talented guy. He must be if he collaborates with Fish who's stuff I always appreciate. Anyway, keep on. Good stuff. J

[WynD]

I Just got done listening to the latest take on your song.
I agree with these last posts too. You do have a good unique sounding voice.
Your vocal on this one is even better than the last one I heard.
It shows that you don't seem to be too confident in your singing abilities just a little bit. There is just a little off tune here and there. And at times you need to add a little more strength to voice. And I don't mean yelling or straining. I mean literally using your 'gut'/diaphram to really belt out your voice.
Both of those can be overcome with practice and more practice. Once you build up that confidence in your singing ability you will be amazed at the difference that can make in your songs.

With my songs, I sometimes record a vocal part in a verse or chorus 15 to 20 times to get it just the way I want. And even after that, a lot of times it is not perfect. A little pitch correction with REATUNE is never a bad thing.

I really like the song as I said in my previous post. You do have musical talent.
Keep it up and keep the songs coming!!

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by Consul

...I decided to forego all the tricks that heretofore have not worked at all, and go purely by feel, something I'm not so good at, really.

Here's the result: http://soundcloud.com/darren-landrum...reat-1/s-Bhfi1

Beautiful song. You have a gift for creating a mood and story-like feel. Rare thing. A few especially good moments in the vocal:

:54-:58 - strongly performed in a way that grabs the listener at the start.

1:02 - the quick vocal figure on "lore" is very well done. Hard to get accurate pitch w/quick pitch changes on a vowel. Kudos.

1:05 - "wish" is a leap in pitch from the previous syllable yet is perfectly in tune. Many singers find this difficult.

1:09 - "care", same as above

1:27 - "some only think about their survival" - another passage that's not only beautifully in tune, but is done in a way where subtle things in the vocal's pitch and articulation heighten the intensity.

2:16 - "I see myself look back at me" - same as above. And that's a nice line, poetically, as well.

Don't underestimate your vocal ability.

...Yeah, there are some less-than-perfect moments. But that's why God created composite editing, no?

[emanresu]

Support is good but it doesn't help if something is seriously wrong.. My teacher was nice and so I thought that oh, ok I do allright until after an uncomfortable pause in a discussion after an exam another teacher said: "and your timing sucks" with some cursewords. That was the most valuable lesson ever for me. I was in jazz oriented school and didn't care use metronome because my teacher was nice

I think you, Consul.. Darren.. have more than it shows at this point. Keep on banging the anvil! I've watched too many x-factors lately.. hehe.

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by emanresu

Support is good but it doesn't help if something is seriously wrong.

I disagree. IME, this depends on the situation and sensitivities of the persons involved.

[emanresu]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

I disagree. IME, this depends on the situation and sensitivities of the persons involved.

I agree that it depends on those things. But Consul trusts his style and rightfully does so, the singing was another thing. When you don't say out loud that something is not right then nothing happens. That can be a bad thing.. I cant tell a friend that something sucks.. don't want to hurt the feelings and what not.. and that has been a big problem quite a few times. Fortunately Consul is a stranger

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by emanresu

When you don't say out loud that something is not right then nothing happens.

Perhaps consider this... sometimes a compliment about a particular musical moment can imply that similar moments not mentioned were less perfect. Some musicians respond better to that approach, IME, than to listing their musical faults.

[emanresu]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

Perhaps consider this... sometimes a compliment about a particular musical moment can imply that similar moments not mentioned were less perfect. Some musicians respond better to that approach, IME, than to listing their musical faults.

And there you go, thats the main problem with people.. with me too. Afraid, shy.. for unknown.. uncertain reasons.

[Fex]

Originally Posted by emanresu

I cant tell a friend that something sucks.

I do. Consequently, I have only friends who can appreciate and respect that, and I would want only such friends. Feelings get hurt. Also, jobs get got, relationships get fixed, minds get put at rest, and friendship prevails.

It's often hard for an artist to judge his own work, and this is especially true for vocals. If a person is supremely talented, he might write, play, produce, engineer, mix and master, but one thing he will certainly need others to do for him is opine.

An engineer I was working with last week described my best guitar playing efforts (in a really easy song) as, and I quote, "complete shit". I'm looking forward to working with him again tomorrow.

[emanresu]

Imagine telling a friend that the part sucked when he is very happy about it? Teach me do that

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by emanresu

And there you go, thats the main problem with people.. with me too. Afraid, shy.. for unknown.. uncertain reasons.

I've worked with many musicians as a teacher and as a performer. Some are objective regarding criticism. That's probably the best way to be, if one could pick. Many though, IME, are sensitive and easily hurt. And when hurt, shut down artistically.

[Timothy Lawler]

My interest in this thread, beside the fact that this is a moving piece of music, is that the performance and recording issues raised are things I believe we all wrestle with.

[emanresu]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

I've worked with many musicians as a teacher and as a performer. Some are objective regarding criticism. That's probably the best way to be, if one could pick. Many though, IME, are sensitive and easily hurt. And when hurt, shut down artistically.

With students its easy. Thats strictly business (mostly technique) and no feelings ever hurt there. When a friend who worked hard and was proud to show the stuff, comes up with nonsense... no way. Even if its still just an opinion. All I can say is "doesn't work" and its a big drawback. But whatever. People are different. Like different things and do all kinds of stuff. Its a big world. And there is too much philosophy around

[Timothy Lawler]

Emanresu, your experience has been different than mine.

[Fex]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

Many though, IME, are sensitive and easily hurt. And when hurt, shut down artistically.

Very true. That's one reason why I'm probably never going to be a great producer.

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

My interest in this thread, beside the fact that this is a moving piece of music, is that the performance and recording issues raised are things I believe we all wrestle with.

It certainly seems to be prevalent where vocals are concerned. Tell me that my violin playing is shit, and I'll laugh with you, because it's obviously true. Tell me that my composition is shit, and I'll laugh at you because it's obviously not true. Tell me that my singing is shit, and my gut reaction will be to resent you as if you'd told me that I myself, and everything I love, believe in and stand for are worthless. I have no idea why that should be. And the thing is, my singing actually really is quite bad, and I'm well aware of that. Go figure.

Originally Posted by emanresu

Imagine telling a friend that the part sucked when he is very happy about it? Teach me do that

Well, there are two approaches. One is Mr. Lawler's, and I wish I could do it convincingly. Mine is more likely to be along the lines of "Dude, I know you think it sounds great; I'm just trying to tell you that it sucks." If it doesn't go down well, then I'm unlikely ever to venture another opinion to that person. Some gentle souls have learned not to ask me for my opinion. Some of them are incredibly talented, and after twenty years, their music still sucks. It's a terrible shame.

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by Fex

Well, there are two approaches. One is Mr. Lawler's, and I wish I could do it convincingly.

There aren't two approaches. It's more subtle than that. It's better to be sensitive to the attributes of the artist being critiqued, and convey what you want to say in a way that they can understand and internalize. As opposed to it being conveyed in a way that just creates a wall.

[Fex]

Great, if you can do it.
Actually, a very simple approach is, "that's great" *bites lip*, "but try it like this...."

[dea-man]

...intelligent communication takes sensitivity and tact.

Experience and practice are also helpful in this endeavor , as well!

[emanresu]

or.."yes yes.. it's really very very good but.. could you try just a little bit better please?"

[Fex]

Originally Posted by dea-man

...intelligent communication takes sensitivity and tact.

Ok, maybe I should just take a vow of silence....

[Consul]

I should change the title of this thread since it's turned into something more interesting than it started as.

I told myself from the very beginning that I was going to be string and honest with myself, and take all criticism as constructive. Obviously, this turned out to be harder to do than I thought. Kinda like singing. Maybe as I work through this I'll get better at both.

In the end, though, I needed the harsh criticism because, even though I had something of a breakdown, ultimately something better came out of it. Not perfect, perhaps, but better.

Over my life, I've been exposed to people who have this attitude toward music, and singing, and perhaps talent in general, where if you aren't able to sing or play or write from the moment they first meet you, you're immediately dismissed as someone who never will be able to. And then, no matter how much better you get, they'll tell you all about how that's not possible. This is where my mind went when I first read emanresu's first comments. Of course, now I can see he's not like that, but it was hard for me to tell for a bit there.

[Timothy Lawler]

Good form, Consul. All's well that ends well!

[dea-man]

Originally Posted by Fex

Ok, maybe I should just take a vow of silence....

...that would take: a really good reason, a serious sense of contentment and, great big balls!

[emanresu]

Originally Posted by Consul

And then, no matter how much better you get, they'll tell you all about how that's not possible. This is where my mind went when I first read emanresu's first comments. Of course, now I can see he's not like that, but it was hard for me to tell for a bit there.

Oh, sorry. I try to think about that when doing the flaming in future.

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by Fex

Ok, maybe I should just take a vow of silence....

I know you don't mean that literally but no, you shouldn't, heh. We can argue about how to communicate, but bigger than that is the value of saying what you think about the work of a colleague, however it's said.

[Fex]

If I may be so bold, I'd like to suggest a singing exercise. Go sing badly. Really badly. Sing below your range. Sing above your range. Sing opera in a fake Italian accent. Sing death metal through a straw. And love every minute of it.

For best results, do this in public. Wearing a dress.

Don't strain your voice.

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by Fex

If I may be so bold, I'd like to suggest a singing exercise. Go sing badly. Really badly. Sing below your range. Sing above your range. Sing opera in a fake Italian accent. Sing death metal through a straw. And love every minute of it.

For best results, do this in public. Wearing a dress.

And a silly hat.

[Consul]

Originally Posted by emanresu

Oh, sorry. I try to think about that when doing the flaming in future.

Oops, sorry. I didn't mean to put you down like that.

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by Fex

And love every minute of it.

Thinking about it, that's brilliant. I'm an admirer of composer Darius Milhaud, who said, "I have no aesthetic rules, or philosophy, or theories. I love to write music. I always do it with pleasure, otherwise I just do not write it."

[dea-man]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

And a silly hat.

..not the silly hat! Pleeeease! Not the SILLY HAT!!!!!

[emanresu]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

Thinking about it, that's brilliant. I'm an admirer of composer Darius Milhaud, who said, "I have no aesthetic rules, or philosophy, or theories. I love to write music. I always do it with pleasure, otherwise I just do not write it."

Someone asked Arvo Pärt what makes the composer, he didn't know and asked a passing janitor, he said that i guess the composer must love every note very much then.

[Fex]

Originally Posted by Consul

Over my life, I've been exposed to people who have this attitude toward music, and singing, and perhaps talent in general, where if you aren't able to sing or play or write from the moment they first meet you, you're immediately dismissed as someone who never will be able to.

I think we all know people like that. The worst are those people who know us through something unrelated to art, to whom making music (writing books, etc) is something only famous people do. People in bands, with record contracts and stuff. You can't possibly make an album, because you're just normal. They'd never even let you in a recording studio. You think you're Beyonce, you do.

Fuckwits.

People ask me why I spend so much time and money making music. As if I have a choice!

[Timothy Lawler]

Originally Posted by emanresu

Someone asked Arvo Pärt what makes the composer, he didn't know and asked a passing janitor, he said that i guess the composer must love every note very much then.

I like that a lot.

[emanresu]

Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler

I like that a lot.

Yeah but what makes a janitor then?