v5.95pre18 - September 3 2018

[xpander]

v5.95pre18 - September 3 2018

+ Duplicate selected items: remove existing AIs
# Item move: move selected AIs with items, but exclude unrelated AIs in time-selection mode
# automation items: improve selection state on item move/copy


Changelog - Pre-Releases
Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by xpander

# Item move: move selected AIs with items, but exclude unrelated AIs in time-selection mode

I think that selected AIs should always move with selected MIs - even if "Envelope points move with media items" is disabled. (Excluding unrelated AIs in time-selection mode, of course.)

As an example of a common situation, in this image I would like to make multiple duplicates of only the selected MI and the selected AI, without affecting other automation that is below the MI. Currently, this is only possible by duplicating the MI and the AI separately.

Originally Posted by xpander

# automation items: improve selection state on item move/copy

The original AIs remain selected, whereas the original MIs are deselected. This can cause problems if the user tries to do a second mousedrag action on the copies, since the original AI will try to move along again.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by juliansader

The original AIs remain selected, whereas the original MIs are deselected. This can cause problems if the user tries to do a second mousedrag action on the copies, since the original AI will try to move along again.

Hmm maybe you can give me the reaper.ini and the exact mouse modifier settings used...

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by Justin

Hmm maybe you can give me the reaper.ini and the exact mouse modifier settings used...

It happens in these situations, even in a new portable install:

Ctrl+drag: "Copy item" (NOT ignoring time selection), with time selection across some or all selected MIs and AIs, and starting mouse movement within the time selection.

Leftdrag: "Move item" (NOT ignoring time selection) with time selection as above. Also, if the time selection only partially covers the AI, so that it splits, both of the split parts are deselected, while other selected AIs outside the time selection remain selected.

"Copy/paste selected area of items", with time selection as above.


Another bug: "Duplicate selected area of items" tries to duplicate selected AIs that fall outside the time selection.

[ovnis]

I think that selected AIs should always move with selected MIs - even if "Envelope points move with media items" is disabled. (Excluding unrelated AIs in time-selection mode, of course.)

Of course. It' not logical and useless to don't be able to move AI + item when they have been selected.

And this issue with useless envelope extra point created on the track envelope when we create or move/copy AI ? It can be very boring when you work with AI + envelope not bypassed.

One exemple :

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by ovnis

And this issue with useless envelope extra point created on the track envelope when we create or move/copy AI ? It can be very boring when you work with AI + envelope not bypassed.

I suspect those points are from the non-AI envelope that is hidden behind the AI, and that gets copied along with everything else below the MI when "Envelope point move with media items" is enabled.

[ovnis]

Originally Posted by juliansader

I suspect those points are from the non-AI envelope that is hidden behind the AI, and that gets copied along with everything else below the MI when "Envelope point move with media items" is enabled.

Yes, I know, and this is why when we create, move or past AI, It should not be automatically created extra point on track envelope.

It can add confustion too :
"Is this new created point is inside or outside the AI ?"
"With all that news useless created points, Reapers seems to a Christmas tree. Where are my AI ??!!"

[FnA]

There is an “edge point” option that could have an effect there too.

It is also confusing when there are active points behind muted AI that are invisible, but still affecting the parameter.

Is there an action or script to clear all such points from behind selected AI?

[ovnis]

There is an “edge point” option that could have an effect there too.

Yes true. Thanks you and sorry for my fault.

It remains this issue :


Same thing when I create a new AI : one new point appears on the envelope track at the left of the AI (no more point at his right side). It happens only with thoses options :

A) Options: Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on the right side
B) Options: Automation items do not connect to the underlying envelope

[D Rocks]

Settings: Ctrl+left drag copy vertically
https://stash.reaper.fm/34222/2018-09-03%20%281%29.jpg

result: When completing the action it copies correctly
https://stash.reaper.fm/34221/2018-09-03%20%283%29.jpg

Possible problem: When Activating the Vertical copy but cancelling the action you wanted to do, it will still copy the AI on the same track on a new lane
https://stash.reaper.fm/34223/2018-09-03%20%284%29.jpg
Is this wanted or not?

[nofish]

Maybe this is too far off for this release cycle but since being worked on item copy / move in relation to automation / AIs I wonder if this behaviour could also be implemented in the API somehow.

Simple example to show what I mean:

Item movement via mouse vs. via API with 'Envelope points move with media items' enabled:

https://i.imgur.com/MY7P2zg.gif

I know of course scripters could roll their own 'automation moves with media items' if desired but if the mechanism is already there in Reaper it would be nice if it's also useable via API I think.

[mccrabney]

yall got started early this morning, here i was sleeping in...

OK, first impressions is that the current selected AI/moving/time selection issues from last pre are VASTLY improved here, thank you very much for that.

you've also convinced me to change my workflow with time selections -- i might move from linked loop/time selections to unlinked, for the purpose of pulling out nice slices of items and AI using time selection. previously, i was splitting AI and items manually -- this is FAR better.

---
issue:
i'm seeing that AI points are still being moved around when you slide them around an active, gradually shifting tempo map. note the first blue AI point on this item as i move it from a faster tempo to a slower tempo. it shifts -- expected behavior is that it would stretch with the item, without changing.

[mccrabney]

here's an issue i can see arising. this is for discussion, it's not a bug report.

if you've made a time selection that covers the bulk of your project for rendering, and then you try to ctrl-drag some stuff within your time selection without clearing it first, you end up with this:



massive amounts of unselected AI being moved around due to the time selection, as per the feature.

however, maybe it should be made so that all of that extra AI that is being grabbed by time selection is only copied if you're dragging OUTSIDE of the time selection. that might allow us to work inside a time selection more efficiently.

[juliansader]

I think that's how it is supposed to work, if you use any of the "selected area of items" actions or equivalent mouse modifiers, and "Envelope points move with MIs" is enabled: they copy/move all automation in the selected area, even if non-AI points or unselected AIs.

(Hopefully in future releases, it will be possible to move only selected AIs, when "Envelope points..." is disabled.)

[mccrabney]

hm, i don't follow what you're saying about using "selected area" specific actions -- the above gif is just the normal ctrl-drag modifier for media items.

i don't have a huge problem with it - personally, the only time i see this being an issue for me is after making a time-selected render. that is, now that i have TS and loop unlinked -- as justin said 2 pres ago, this is going to have implications for people who linked TS and loop.

good times

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

hm, i don't follow what you're saying about using "selected area" specific actions -- the above gif is just the normal ctrl-drag modifier for media items.

The default Ctrl+drag modifier is "Copy item", which (somewhat misleadingly) actually copies the selected area. So Mouse modifier "Copy item" = Action "Copy selected area of item"

To ignore the time selection, you must set the mouse modifier to "Copy item ignoring time selection", similar to the default leftdrag action, "Move item ignoring time selection".

[_Stevie_]

Originally Posted by juliansader

I think that selected AIs should always move with selected MIs - even if "Envelope points move with media items" is disabled. (Excluding unrelated AIs in time-selection mode, of course.)

Absolutely, that behavior would make much more sense.

[mccrabney]

thanks julian, i see now. i also agree with your statement which _Stevie_ quoted.
AI: behaving more and more like media items everyday. i love it.

[deeb]

I don't understand one thing! Selected AI's are dependent of being between Time selection in order for them to be moved (drag moved)?

also "Originally Posted by juliansader
I think that selected AIs should always move with selected MIs - even if "Envelope points move with media items" is disabled. (Excluding unrelated AIs in time-selection mode, of course.)
"
this sentence scares me a bit.

my thought!

#1) if something is selected it should react (in this case moves)
#2) if "Envelope points move with media items" is disabled , AI shouldn't be moved with it in any case, unless ofcourse if those AI's are selected (ruled by #1)

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by deeb

I don't understand one thing! Selected AI's are dependent of being between Time selection in order for them to be moved (drag moved)?

I was referring to actions such as "Copy selected area of items", which exclude selected items -- MIs as well as AIs -- if they are outside the time selection.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

issue:
i'm seeing that AI points are still being moved around when you slide them around an active, gradually shifting tempo map. note the first blue AI point on this item as i move it from a faster tempo to a slower tempo. it shifts -- expected behavior is that it would stretch with the item, without changing.

Is there a bug report thread for this issue?



EDIT: Ignore the text in this GIF -- it happens even without linear tempo changes and even when the AI is moved on its own.

The one reliable cause of the problem seems to be AIs that are shortened but not trimmed, so parts of the AIs are not visible.

This reminds of of similar problems with MIDI items that are shortened but not trimmed (when "Allow trim of MIDI items" is disabled), so REAPER calculates stretching from the start of the underlying source instead of the start of the visible part.

[_Stevie_]

@deeb, that's the current behavior:

[vanhaze]

Originally Posted by deeb

I don't understand one thing! Selected AI's are dependent of being between Time selection in order for them to be moved (drag moved)?

also "Originally Posted by juliansader
I think that selected AIs should always move with selected MIs - even if "Envelope points move with media items" is disabled. (Excluding unrelated AIs in time-selection mode, of course.)
"
this sentence scares me a bit.

my thought!

#1) if something is selected it should react (in this case moves)
#2) if "Envelope points move with media items" is disabled , AI shouldn't be moved with it in any case, unless ofcourse if those AI's are selected (ruled by #1)

Totally agree with all of this, cause it's the most logical behaviour IMHO.

[juliansader]

Originally Posted by vanhaze

Totally agree with all of this, cause it's the most logical behaviour IMHO.

We all seem to agree with this. The phrase "excluding unrelated AIs in time-selection mode" that I used (copied from the changelog) referred to actions such as "Copy selected area of items", which are specifically intended to exclude anything -- including selected MIs, selected AIs and parts of selected items -- that are are outside the time selection.

[bFooz]

Notation: pasting/inserting events via action goes to the selected track context

Still no good:
1 - when the copy-source track is bellow the track selected for input, paste goes into the track selected for input
2 - when the source is above the selected track, paste goes into the source track.

And I'm thinking why there are 3 track states: unselected, selected, last clicked. When two would be sufficient - selected, unselected. Only one track can be selected for midi input, so no need to have "last touched track" like in the TCP.
For this, the track would have to be able to be set for input just by clicking into its stave and these two things would be needed:
1 - an action "Notation: select track under mouse cursor for input"
2 - fix this https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=210544

Or maybe an option for notation "doing stuff in the stave selects its track for input".

[Edgemeal]

Much better Thanks!
Hope you had a good Labor Day weekend!

[deeb]

i wonder now:
if time-selection mode includes Y selection - track and envelope lanes , wouldn't it be an happy ending?

[ferropop]

Originally Posted by deeb

i wonder now:
if time-selection mode includes Y selection - track and envelope lanes , wouldn't it be an happy ending?

Yup, Cubase had this sorted out on the Atari ST in 1989.

[D Rocks]

And did not evolve since lol.

[deeb]

i wrote with a positive and hope tone! 2 days ago wasn't expected to be so near by anyone! : ) It's now so close!! .. and we all agree it would be an happy ending.

[Triode]

I don't regularly use AIs. Can someone enlighten me - I thought that v5.5 looked like a good team effort of user feedback for the development of automaton items. Is the recent refocus onto this area due to regressions or is it further refinement? Or both?
Cheers

[mccrabney]

mostly refinement, one regression that lasted ~12 hours
ai, while in an awesome, functional state, leave a lot of workflow continuity to be desired
the mantra is "ai are items and should behave as such" - moving encapsulated automation envelopes away from independent actions and behavior and toward unity with regular media items.

for example, ctrl-A, "Select all items/tracks/envelope points (depending on focus)" does not select AI, and it should

[mccrabney]

+1 y selection for time selection + multiple time selections if that doesn't break everything

[juliansader]

In REAPER's paradigm, Y-axis selection is given by item selection. Now that we have automation items, this paradigm will apply just as nicely to automation lanes as to media lanes.

Multiple time selections is an interesting idea, but would likely break many, many things, and I haven't ever read any of the devs commenting about such a possibility.

[mccrabney]

yeah, you're right. let's not break every known script haha

-1 multiple time selections, +1 multiple lasso selections ala photoshop, gimp, paint.net, excel.

[vanhaze]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

mostly refinement, one regression that lasted ~12 hours
ai, while in an awesome, functional state, leave a lot of workflow continuity to be desired
the mantra is "ai are items and should behave as such" - moving encapsulated automation envelopes away from independent actions and behavior and toward unity with regular media items.

for example, ctrl-A, "Select all items/tracks/envelope points (depending on focus)" does not select AI, and it should

↑↑↑ Exactly This !

[Meo-Ada Mespotine]

There's a new option to display a splash-screen while loading a project, which I wanted to temporarily disable in one of my scripts, however, I couldn't find a config-var being triggered by this checkbox in the prefs.
Did I miss something or is that by design?

[mccrabney]

another example of desired continuity: consider alt-dragging the edge of [a media item][multiple media items][an ai][multiple ai]

the item stretches. good behavior.

now, select multiple items and ai in the same selection, and alt stretch an edge of either media item or ai. undesired behavior: only item class that you last clicked gets stretched. desired behavior: all selected items get stretched, regardless of whether they are automation item or media item.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by mccrabney

yeah, you're right. let's not break every known script haha

-1 multiple time selections, +1 multiple lasso selections ala photoshop, gimp, paint.net, excel.

That would still break all scripts that have anything to do with time selection (or they'd work only on the first selection made out of a bunch of them).

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by mespotine

There's a new option to display a splash-screen while loading a project

That was there for ages? Preferences->General->Show splash screen on startup

(applies also to loading projects)