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Old 02-28-2010, 12:13 PM   #41
kerryg
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The menu File --> "Recent Projects" does not indicate an action. It should say File -> "Open Recent Project". If the menu item "Recent Projects..." was intended to open a list that could be acted upon, it should take the ellipsis.
That never bothered me, but well spotted for detail consistency!

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Apparently addressed in a future version, but to drive the OT home: Selected items should be copied if the option key is held at release time during a drag operation on them. http://developer.apple.com/mac/libra...00364-TPXREF30
+100 - indeed - on Mac OS the check for the option key happens on mouse release. Users should always retain choice until the mouse button is released.

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There isn't so much as a note about making spatial marquee selections by invoking the context-menu-bound Secondary Click on the mouse! This is just alien on the Mac.
+1000 - the Secondary Click does not invoke the marquee selection on Mac OS, it's the left click that does.


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p.s. i just tried to right-click-drag a selection in the finder. CURSE! We need our muscle-memory intact!
+100

Why plan for failure? If Reaper is looking to become our go-to platform for everyday use (and it's become exactly that), things like this crosswire our brains and screw up our existing workflow in other apps. We'll find ourselves flipping to the Finder and absentmindedly trying to command-drag something. The effect will naturally grow in direct proportion to the amount we use Reaper, so plan for success and popularity.

Sounds like an exaggeration? I used the Palm Pilot for several years. It got to the point where I became so used to its Graffiti handwriting recognition system that I'd find myself using it when I was writing a note or a shopping list with pen and paper. It became an effort to read my own handwriting. A couple of years of daily use crosswired thirty years of handwriting habits.

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I'm confused about why there's even a debate about the importance of UI conventions in a thread on a Mac app forum!
There is no debate - Schwa clearly gets the importance of GUI consistency and this last issue was addressed extremely rapidly.

There can be an "illusion of debate" generated when things like this are mentioned, but it's just "noise floor". You'd get if you announced the sky was blue ("yes, but - what does 'blue' mean? and how can you know that I perceive 'blue' as the same color as you do?"). Mac users want it in the Mac version, the devs agree, and - assuming it's optional behaviour and breaks nothing for Windows users - the rest is completely irrelevant and can be dismissed.

The bulk of the app has been developed by people coming from a Windows background. They clearly intend to make the Mac version of Reaper both run as well as possible (the recent OSX optimizations were breathtaking) and "feel" as good as possible to Mac users.

But as we can see here, there are differences between the platforms, both explicit and non-explicit, that jump out far more for experienced users of the Mac platform.

So now it's time for us as experienced Mac users to bring our part of the equation - ten to fifteen years of "gut feel" for the UI - and bring those details to the devs' attention for fine-polishing before it leaves beta. With that - when the Mac version of Reaper hits release, it will feel like it was written by developers who've been making Mac apps all their lives. That will matter to Mac users shopping for Mac apps - bigtime.

Last edited by kerryg; 02-28-2010 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 02-28-2010, 12:52 PM   #42
razielpanic
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There is no debate - Schwa clearly gets the importance of GUI consistency and this last issue was addressed extremely rapidly.

There can be an "illusion of debate"
I wuz bein' glib

I meant to underscore that only one who hasn't been using the Mac platform would contrive an augment over 'whether or not to' rather than 'how to'— the latter being clearly what the devs are interested in, so that the app may succeed with OS X users. And I appreciate schwa's attention both here and on the RBN creator's forum.

Very glad to hear your enthusiasm, explanation & attitude on the topic, kerryg.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:24 PM   #43
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Very glad to hear your enthusiasm, explanation & attitude on the topic, kerryg.
Thanks raziel - selfish motivations, of course; I'm no longer waiting for Reaper OSX to leave beta, I've decided to take the plunge, license up and switch production platforms from Logic (which I've been with since the days of C-Lab Notator) to Reaper.

Aside from its glaring lack of a score editor - a fundamental requirement for DAWs that aspire to attract an entire class of professionals - which I'll get by without until it's been addressed - Reaper's just far better in every way that matters to me day to day.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:26 PM   #44
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score editor - a fundamental requirement for DAWs that aspire to attract an entire class of professionals -
well maybe reaper isn't for that class? would be nice tho, sure. I don't find it a "glaring" thing - you do know what DAW stands for right?
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:43 PM   #45
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well maybe reaper isn't for that class? would be nice tho, sure. I don't find it a "glaring" thing - you do know what DAW stands for right?
That's a curiously antiquated way of defining a DAW. That rigid idea comes from the days when we had the luxury of having various entire classes of workers on a single production - content creators, arrangers, orchestrators, editors, mixers, producers - each with their own defined field of responsibility with few overlaps and their own specialized tools to fulfil those responsibilities. ProTools was descended from SoundTools - a two-track editing tool for film and TV editors. But even ProTools figured it out eventually - that's over now for the bulk of us. Most of us have to be more than one of those things nowadays, and many of us have to be all of them.

Reaper's already a killer workstation for mixers and editors, and provides lots of cool sequencing features for "by-ear" musicians. There are tons of the musically illiterate who'd find nothing lacking about a DAW without a score editor. Now it's time to include pro musicians, and flatly you won't find the majority of that class are illiterate, or have no need to communicate with other literate musicians.

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well maybe reaper isn't for that class?
Wicked marketing strategy - "everyone but pro musicians!". Let me know how that works out.

Last edited by kerryg; 02-28-2010 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:52 PM   #46
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That's a curiously antiquated way of defining a DAW.
even so - the definition of a DAW is quite broad - prohibitively so for assuming it MUST have a certain feature. However yes, there is a segment of producers, composers, musicians and others who would like a score editor. However, i don't find this to be a glaring omission. I find that Reaper excels at certain things, and is focused on those at the moment.
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Most of us have to be more than one of those things nowadays, and many of us have to be all of them.
this is true, more and more as time progresses.

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There are tons of the musically illiterate who'd find nothing lacking about a DAW without a score editor.
and tons of the musically literate, who prefer a midi editor any day, and who would never even open a score editor.

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Now it's time to include pros,
already got a couple here, thanks. More would be nice for reaper's market share, for sure. But methinks you are a bit too dug-in to your own personal worldview. At least that's what comes across here.
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and flatly you won't find the majority of that class are illiterate, or have no need to communicate with other literate musicians.
this doesn't preclude the usage of a score editor. You also have many pro's out there who would never touch a DAW, forget about a score editor.

Last edited by Jae.Thomas; 02-28-2010 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:56 PM   #47
kerryg
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Default This is getting pretty OT

for a thread on Mac UI - we should either start a new thread on the pros/cons of an integrated score editor or join one of the many existing ones.
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:57 PM   #48
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for a thread on Mac UI - we should either start a new thread on the pros/cons of an integrated score editor or join one of the many existing ones.
sure - theres quite a few threads on it already

but - i didnt start it
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Old 02-28-2010, 02:59 PM   #49
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but - i didnt start it
Guilty as charged; it's a fair cop, I'll come quietly

Last edited by kerryg; 02-28-2010 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:24 AM   #50
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OH, WOW!

332pre3 is THE BIZ, folks! Got it, used it, grinning.

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+ OSX: magic mouse multitouch swipe can be mapped using the action system
+ OSX: preference to use opt+drag to copy items, command+drag to slip content
...make things so, so, very much smoother and more like the rest of the apps i'm using concurrently, that I withdraw any negative vibe my previous post might have conveyed : ) !!

Basic 360 scrolling in the correct directions, I assume is part of the update. I'm not even using (yet) the multitouch gestures… just working Apple mouse support.

I'll stick around to keep up with other things, but these were big moves. I hope they are set up by default- I had modified actions for the scroll, and the 'option' option was unchecked.
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:32 AM   #51
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...make things so, so, very much smoother and more like the rest of the apps i'm using concurrently, that I withdraw any negative vibe my previous post might have conveyed : )!!
We bug them because we love this DAW - and because we know full well they're actually listening.

Fifteen years ago back when Logic was a community instead of merely a product or a market or a demographic, I might have bugged Dr. Gerhard Lengelling for stuff like this. It felt like this.

Today I wouldn't waste my energy asking Apple to change anything in Logic. It's version 9.0 now and I don't know if they've got "tab to transient" yet (it ain't in 8) nor whether they can yet derive sample accurate positioning from ADAT sync (or anything else, for that matter) - and I no longer care. I'm just phasing out what's increasingly becoming "Garage Band Pro" and going over to Reaper.

Last edited by kerryg; 03-01-2010 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 03-01-2010, 01:22 AM   #52
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Today I wouldn't waste my energy asking Apple to change anything in Logic.
Ah, the helpless frustration to watch your once-treasured tools drift silently off into the corporate vacuum. I know just how you feel. Happened to me years ago when Opcode got sucked in by Gibson. Users, certain Apple employees, and former Opcoders did their best to liberate the source, but all was rumored to be lost, filed only on a handful of computers that were in the possession of Gibson, even as they let it die.

Here's to living code & attentive devs!
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Old 03-04-2010, 12:34 AM   #53
kerryg
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Default WoooooooTTT!

It be out aready...

http://www.cockos.com/reaper/download.php

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REAPER 3.35 - March 3, 2010

Changes: OSXy

* Mousewheel: horizontal mousewheel support (including OSX magic mouse)
* OSX: fixed bug where dragging project from titlebar to new tab caused crashing
* OSX: improved text rendering/measuring, better fallback support, 64 bit OS support
* OSX: respect preference to select track when clicking faders or track control panel buttons
* OSX: fixed tcp window reordering with hidden tracks for efficiency and odd behaviors
* OSX: fixed bin/cue rendering on PPC
* OSX: better initial positioning of popup windows
* OSX: magic mouse multitouch swipe can be mapped using the action system
* OSX: preference to use opt+drag to copy items, command+drag to slip content
* OSX: show render progress in system dock
* OSX: fixed plugin wet/dry knob display going to zero when switching to generic plugin UI
* OSX: command+H hides REAPER
* OSX: JS editor keyboard usability enhancements, drawing cleanups
* OSX AU: fixed Apple DLSMusicDevice
* OSX AU: ignore extra output busses that are labeled as unused, or if the plugin is marked buggy
... if I might propose a refinement, folks - if there's no real technical difficulty in doing so, you might want to consider putting this feature in the Win version too [with the defaults correct for Win] for the ease of Mac users using the Windows version... and since as feature convergence increases I see a day coming where sensible Reaper users will carry both a Mac and Win USB key with them to sessions (or a single one partitioned) and be prepared for anything an unfamiliar studio throws at them...

And this is why I'm on the Reaper bus now.

Many, many thanks, folks!

Last edited by kerryg; 03-04-2010 at 12:42 AM.
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Old 03-04-2010, 05:58 AM   #54
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Nice additions, though the horizontal scroll reacts backwards on the apple trackpad and the scrolling doesn't work inside plugins.
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Old 03-04-2010, 07:29 AM   #55
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Nice additions, though the horizontal scroll reacts backwards on the apple trackpad and the scrolling doesn't work inside plugins.
The horizontal scroll direction is meant to work the same way as the multitouch swipe, that is, it's as if you were holding a canvas and dragging it in the direction your finger moves. If you prefer the other direction, you can open the actions window ("?" key), type "scroll horiz reversed" in the filter box, select the action, press the add shortcut button, and scroll the trackpad to change the assignment.
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Old 03-04-2010, 08:32 AM   #56
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It be out aready...
I'm curious, is it on by default? As in, when you first install the program, is the preference to use opt+drag to copy items enabled or disabled?
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Old 03-04-2010, 03:16 PM   #57
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Oh, it works, thanks. Finally.
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