Old 12-12-2018, 10:46 AM   #1
vdubreeze
Human being with feelings
 
vdubreeze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,611
Default Track grouping

The kludges I've been using to be happy with track grouping aren't cutting it anymore, so I ask: how does one create groups that only affect editing and nothing else? I get that Reaper is item based, but I don't need or want item grouping. When I use it to group all items in several tracks to essentially group the tracks it doesn't keep all newly created items in the group no matter where or how they're created.

I really just want track grouping, for editing, the way track grouping is generally thought of, and to include all audio editing functions but nothing else. How is this accomplished?

Thanks.
__________________
The reason rain dances work is because they don't stop dancing until it rains.
vdubreeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2018, 12:05 PM   #2
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,248
Default

If I understand correctly, that's not possible. Track grouping isn't related to editing. What do you mean you don't need item grouping? Are you not trying to edit the items of grouped tracks as a group? I guess you'd need some sort of script to automatically add new items to existing groups.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2018, 12:50 PM   #3
ChristopherT
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: South
Posts: 587
Default

Probably the only thing I really miss from ProTools...
ChristopherT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2018, 03:13 PM   #4
nofish
Human being with feelings
 
nofish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,093
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubreeze View Post
I really just want track grouping, for editing, the way track grouping is generally thought of, and to include all audio editing functions but nothing else. How is this accomplished?
As said, that's currently not implemented in Reaper (unfortunately).
If you want to group for editing you have to go item grouping.
nofish is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2018, 07:48 PM   #5
vdubreeze
Human being with feelings
 
vdubreeze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,611
Default

Thanks all, for the definitive answer.



Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
If I understand correctly, that's not possible. Track grouping isn't related to editing. What do you mean you don't need item grouping? Are you not trying to edit the items of grouped tracks as a group? I guess you'd need some sort of script to automatically add new items to existing groups.
I don't need item grouping except to act as track grouping, so if anyone can figure out how to make a script to do that it would a plus.

. Actually, there's nothing in item grouping, as it is, that's useful for me. In simple track grouping, a typical case would be a recording where the 10 tracks of drums need an occasional nudge of a small few beats or less section. You'd have the drums grouped so any audio edits, from splitting to nudging to crossfading, happen on all 10 tracks together by doing it on any one of the tracks.

I have a drum track where we've decided the playing is great but the ghost snares after the snare hits in the verses should go, on any mic it was on. I figured it wouldn't take long at all, as I'd done far trickier in other DAWs. I spent two hours trying to get the groups to function for editing, then an 90 minutes getting it half done and not to my satisfaction. Threw it in my old copy of PT (had to uncork my old DIgi interface and 10.6.8), knocked it out in 25 minutes. True, I couldn't group the 2nd chorus overheads' width to response to the tambourine's de-essing, but was able to do what I was trying to do.

How is anyone doing edits of a part of a multitrack (drums, multiple mics on one guitar, etc, that occasionally add new glued items to the tracks) and need to leave the rest untouched, using Reaper's item grouping?
__________________
The reason rain dances work is because they don't stop dancing until it rains.

Last edited by vdubreeze; 12-12-2018 at 07:56 PM.
vdubreeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2018, 08:21 PM   #6
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,248
Default

Oh, it's easy: x-raym script "group selected items according to their order in selection per track." Not a very intuitively worded title, but does the trick.

There's the grouping toggle on the main toolbar for if you want to turn it off, or I use a mouse modifier shortcut (ctrl+alt+shift+click media item ignoring grouping).

There's also an action to stop recording and auto group simultaneously recorded items.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2018, 01:17 AM   #7
ChristopherT
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: South
Posts: 587
Default

The: x-raym script "group selected items according to their order in selection per track."
Does this mean all tracks need to be in order to group?

I am the same as vdubreeze, I pretty much never need to group items, but I want to group tracks for editing everytime I am working.

I may want to select track 4/15/24/25 and group them so that any edit on any track is done on all tracks, including automation (if selected).

Need to look into x-raym script

So far, I am struggling at times without being able to group tracks for editing and fast workflow, selecting various options in the track grouping makes working with large track counts a breeze.
ChristopherT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2018, 01:30 AM   #8
Tobbe
Human being with feelings
 
Tobbe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Northern Lights
Posts: 736
Default

Maybe Track Tags (based on Tracktion 6 track tags) can help you. I think you can pick any track and tag them. It's in ReaPack, done by spk77.

Yup, did a small test. Selected track 3, 6 and 9 and tag them with a name. When I click on that tag it only show those tracks.

Hope I understand you correctly.
__________________
OS: Manjaro KDE Plasma, Reaper For Linux (64Bit) native linux-vst plugins, LSP-Plugins, TpL-Plugins, Harrison's AVA & VST Plugins. Behringer U-PHORIA UMC22.
Tobbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2018, 03:04 AM   #9
ChristopherT
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: South
Posts: 587
Default

It is just a pity track edit grouping is not built native in to Reaper.


Need to look closely into Track Tags.

Last edited by ChristopherT; 01-05-2019 at 03:24 AM.
ChristopherT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2018, 10:44 AM   #10
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherT View Post
The: x-raym script "group selected items according to their order in selection per track."
Does this mean all tracks need to be in order to group?
No, it just makes item groups of any vertically aligned items of the same length. Without this, if you group all items on a track and there are splits, ALL the items are grouped ACROSS the splits into a single group and it gets in the way of editing.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2018, 08:36 PM   #11
vdubreeze
Human being with feelings
 
vdubreeze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,611
Default

The "group selected items according to their order in selection per track" doesn't really accomplish it. I don't have much luck using it for this. The way people who like to use grouped tracks need it, generally, is that if you have the cursor down on any part of a track that is in the group, the whole group will respond to that edit. So if you're nudging the kick (by splitting and nudging and crossfading) all the grouped tracks get the same edit, and if you're doing the same to the snare the same happens to the same tracks, no matter how anything is selected, if the group is active. When using this script I find that many times the other tracks not in the group got the split, for example, depending on how the cursor or highlighting was. But it shouldn't depend on that. The script helps somewhat but not enough to use it for grouped track editing.

But mainly, since it's item based, if you change any items in the track, those items aren't included, when what's really wanted is for the tracks to be grouped regardless of what's on the tracks.
__________________
The reason rain dances work is because they don't stop dancing until it rains.
vdubreeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2018, 10:38 PM   #12
ChristopherT
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: South
Posts: 587
Default

I could not agree more with vdubreeze.

It's like the developers have never set foot in a recording studio during an album tracking session / or sat in on any serious mix session.

It's a gaping omission for a serious mix engineer to consider.
In fact I don't know of any mix engineer who does not use track grouping - it is a standard mixing process.

An engineer walks into a studio on day 1 of a mix session and the assistant says grouping is not working - the mix session is over.

I have NO idea how someone can mix a film on Reaper, with the lack of track grouping becoming an issue over and over again.

Grouping tracks has been on every mix session I have done for last 30 years.
Analog & digital - console/ITB.
(though I still do all my mix sessions on a HD rig through outboard via ProTools)

I would love to see proper industry standard track grouping in Reaper 6.
ChristopherT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2018, 11:09 PM   #13
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubreeze View Post
When using this script I find that many times the other tracks not in the group got the split, for example, depending on how the cursor or highlighting was. But it shouldn't depend on that. The script helps somewhat but not enough to use it for grouped track editing.
Hmmkay. I can definitely see how the feature would be useful. But I work a lot with multitrack drums and I just don't have any problems, so let me point out two more little things that could help:
1. Right click the grouping toggle button and there is an option to select all items in the group when selecting one. I always need this on when editing item groups.
2. In preferences/editing behavior there is an option at the bottom, "if no items are selected, some edits affect all items." I have that unchecked.

Are you typically adding items to grouped tracks in a way other than recording them? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, it's just I'm not familiar with track grouping like that and everything you're describing just sounds like an item group. Track grouping in Reaper is for linking track controls.

Any chance you can post a gif of a case where you're not able to do what you want?

Quote:
It's like working on a mixing console - group tracks and record the group movement / automation < been that way since the 80's (because it works).
Are you talking about VCA? Because you can do that
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2018, 11:45 PM   #14
ChristopherT
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: South
Posts: 587
Default

Its not so much about the VCA's.
Track grouping should be able to encapsulate edits, fades, crossfades, VCA's, mutes, solos, panning, and all plug in parameter automation.
(which it does in ProTools)

So in ProTools, when various tracks are grouped, it gives you a window to select what is affected by the group.
At any stage this can be modified (and often is).

So mixing is fast as one can do edits to vast number of tracks whilst performing it on any of the grouped tracks.
Plus commands to bypass the group with a key stroke, then back to editing the single waveform.
ChristopherT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2018, 04:06 PM   #15
vdubreeze
Human being with feelings
 
vdubreeze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 2,611
Default

My experience with using the all-items-in-desired-grouped-tracks item grouped is that I could go with it except that it's regularly inconsistent when you get into your work flow and turn grouping on and off many times. Sometimes turning it off doesn't stop grouping until a few mouse clicks later, and then sometimes when back on it will be excluding a track.

I can't count the number of times I turned item grouping on and my group didn't come back. Only I didn't see it because I had one of the tracks super zoomed in for close detail edit, assuming the group, and nothing else, was getting the moves, and then zoomed back and realized either the splits had gone across all tracks or none except the one I was one, so none of the group tracks got the edit. So I've taken in Reaper to doing group editing with the whole group and at least one non grouped track on the screen, which is a PITA and an unnecessary patience drain.

Echoing my sentiments on other areas, I find it much less impressive than some others that Reaper can do such customizable feats limited only by one's imagination, many involving features I would never use, if certain meat and potatoes functions can't be used easily and with confidence. We love to make fun of PT but my old copy of PT7 is saving my butt right now editing grouped basics.
__________________
The reason rain dances work is because they don't stop dancing until it rains.
vdubreeze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2018, 06:51 PM   #16
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vdubreeze View Post
I can't count the number of times I turned item grouping on and my group didn't come back. Only I didn't see it because I had one of the tracks super zoomed in for close detail edit, assuming the group, and nothing else, was getting the moves, and then zoomed back and realized either the splits had gone across all tracks or none except the one I was one, so none of the group tracks got the edit. So I've taken in Reaper to doing group editing with the whole group and at least one non grouped track on the screen, which is a PITA and an unnecessary patience drain.
Fair enough, but I still say those problems have to do with the settings I mentioned above. If you're needing to turn grouping on and off often, they you're better off using mouse modifiers to disable it temporarily. I've never seen grouping "lag" after being enabled. These sound exactly like a problems of track selection, which is easy to mess up and I do so frequently when working fast.

Another thing that might help is to use the actions "select item under mouse" and "select all items in group if grouping enabled." If you combine these into a custom action with split, for instance, you will never have to worry about clicking the wrong thing; it's just point and shoot. That's how I work and it's very dependable.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2019, 07:25 AM   #17
xav
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 40
Default

Maybe I use Item grouping the wrong way but it seems Duplicate grouped items associates new items in the same first group... and newly created item editing also edits original items.
I'm also convinced an edit option in track grouping would be a better way to work.
xav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2019, 01:17 PM   #18
foxAsteria
Human being with feelings
 
foxAsteria's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,248
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xav View Post
Maybe I use Item grouping the wrong way but it seems Duplicate grouped items associates new items in the same first group... and newly created item editing also edits original items.
I'm also convinced an edit option in track grouping would be a better way to work.
Yes it's annoying that grouping works like that. I've argued the same thing and couldn't convince the devs it was expected behavior. However, there is a script that can fix it. If you duplicate a group and want all the horizontally aligned items in separate groups, just select them all and run the script "group selected items according to their order..." Should be in ReaPack.
__________________
foxyyymusic
foxAsteria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2019, 01:57 PM   #19
ChristopherT
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: South
Posts: 587
Default

Apart from the glaring omission of not having any editing with grouping,
the other grouping let down for me is not being able to adjust the height of grouped tracks.

In ProTools both of these work (and have for 2 decades!) and it makes a HUGE difference for speedy editing, and visual grouped track editing navigation.

Both of these shortcomings are constantly an issue for me every day I work.
The lack of group editing is especially an editing workflow nightmare.

Way too much time is wasted navigating around these two omissions

Grouping is crippled.
ChristopherT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.