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Old 04-20-2010, 05:38 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
Bump.

Are there really so few people who want a correct pan?
Exactly what is correct? The way other daws are doing it? I have had no issues with it as is. I don't see any compelling reason for this change
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Old 04-20-2010, 05:40 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
Good to hear I'm not that alone, although 18 votes is still quite low imo... oh well.

The problem as a programmer and perfectionist, whenever I see mistakes like these I want to start "rolling my own", but then I'd never finish any tracks...
I am not clear why the existing stuff is a "mistake".
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Old 04-20-2010, 05:51 AM   #43
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Just have a look at those plots again and think about it for a moment.

Why is the power sum for the -3dB law not a constant zero dB with the reaper taper, and ONLY with the reaper taper? A -3dB law should be a constant power law, with reaper, it isn't.

Why is the reaper taper the only one to have a discontinuity?

Why does the reaper taper exaggerate the movement in the last part of the range when in linear (-6dB) mode? (Why doesn't it create a true linear pan as it should for that setting)
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Old 04-20-2010, 05:52 AM   #44
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Furthermore sinusoidal, square-root and linear laws are the classic pan laws audio engineers are used to, and so should at least be available.
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Old 04-20-2010, 08:43 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
Just have a look at those plots again and think about it for a moment.

Why is the power sum for the -3dB law not a constant zero dB with the reaper taper, and ONLY with the reaper taper? A -3dB law should be a constant power law, with reaper, it isn't.

Why is the reaper taper the only one to have a discontinuity?

Why does the reaper taper exaggerate the movement in the last part of the range when in linear (-6dB) mode? (Why doesn't it create a true linear pan as it should for that setting)
Well, that's all well and good. But, I don't mix with my eyes. Seeing a problem is a different thing entirely than hearing one. I am not hearing a problem when I mix. In fact I find mixing in Reaper a hell of a lot easier than in Cubase which apparently has the pan tapers you are looking for. As such I don't see a pressing need for this. They will probably add it eventually but I want what they have right now as an option because it sounds good even if its not historically or theoretically correct.
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Old 04-20-2010, 04:02 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by AudioWonderland View Post
Well, that's all well and good. But, I don't mix with my eyes. Seeing a problem is a different thing entirely than hearing one. I am not hearing a problem when I mix. In fact I find mixing in Reaper a hell of a lot easier than in Cubase which apparently has the pan tapers you are looking for. As such I don't see a pressing need for this. They will probably add it eventually but I want what they have right now as an option because it sounds good even if its not historically or theoretically correct.
I personally always had trouble with the panning in Reaper (it only took eyes, to see WHY there is a problem), and automating the panning in Reaper... just forget about it.
And I did suggest right in the first post to keep the Reaper pan as an option (if only to preserve compatibility with older projects)
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:11 AM   #47
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bum-p
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:04 AM   #48
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voted
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:46 AM   #49
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ive been using the console panners in Nebula and the difference is very noticeable and I'm sure this is the reason why.



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Old 05-18-2010, 01:35 AM   #50
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Far more likely than the reason being the "sampled analog mojo", right? BTW, if you didn't notice yet, there is a simple JS implementation linked in the first post. (Not optimized, so it uses quite a lot of CPU, but there are easy ways to optimize this) So you can already try and see if this is the main difference.
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Old 05-18-2010, 03:01 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
Far more likely than the reason being the "sampled analog mojo", right? BTW, if you didn't notice yet, there is a simple JS implementation linked in the first post. (Not optimized, so it uses quite a lot of CPU, but there are easy ways to optimize this) So you can already try and see if this is the main difference.
I would really love to use that optimized version, do you think it is possible? It'd be great to work with it in the meantime (I've tried to use it but it's quite CPU hungry now).
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Old 05-18-2010, 03:18 AM   #52
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If I find some time this weekend, I might make an optimized VST or try to improve the JS version (although the language is quite ugly IMO, the lack of having to compile anything does improve development speed). If I get around to it, I might also include an improved volume fader (as reaper's volume fader taper is also incredibly wierd imo...)
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Old 05-22-2010, 01:22 AM   #53
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New version of JS plugin:

http://forum.cockos.com/attachment.p...1&d=1274516421

Apparently memory reads are incredibly slow in JS, so it doesn't use any interpolation at the moment. With interpolation, CPU usage is equivalent to the non-optimized version. Oh well. Guess an actual VST is necessary...

The code with interpolation is included, but commented.
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File Type: zip JSPantest2.zip (1,009 Bytes, 1153 views)
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Old 05-22-2010, 10:52 AM   #54
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Thanks l0calh05t. I'll give it a shot this weekend and report back.
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Old 05-22-2010, 11:15 AM   #55
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These are a couple of examples (-3dB):

REAPER Native Panner:



Sinusoidal Panner:



As we can see the sinusoidal panner would give us a 'natural' and somehow 'expected' panning which is, imo, critical for mixing (I know most people don't care about middle points between hard left/right and center but this is important for some of us, at least, an option would be nice).
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:06 PM   #56
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Just an off topic question:

Recently I see quite frequently posts with embedded pics, but I don't see the pics (as in yours Mercado). Other posts show the pictures.

Does anyone know what's up there?

Weird, now that I've written the post I can see 'em


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Old 05-22-2010, 03:51 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
Just an off topic question:

Recently I see quite frequently posts with embedded pics, but I don't see the pics (as in yours Mercado). Other posts show the pictures.

Does anyone know what's up there?

Weird, now that I've written the post I can see 'em


-Data
some servers may be taking longer to respond if the images are hosted externally.
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Old 05-22-2010, 05:19 PM   #58
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Voted and hopeful for the fix..........
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Old 05-22-2010, 07:45 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
some servers may be taking longer to respond if the images are hosted externally.
Thanks L0calh05t.

As I wrote my post, I discovered, that I couldn't see the graphics im many threads recently, although reloading the pages several times, but when I replied to a post, they suddenly appeared. I didn't always look at the source server of the pics. Maybe it's just stashbox. Dunno. And as I said, it wasn't always like this, just recently this happened more often.

strange.

On topic: To me it looks like in Reaper the sinusoidal curve is there as well, just inverted on both sides. If the concave parts would be turned to convex, it could be right. But that's just an assumption out of what I see in Mercado's graphs. And if I'm right, I could imagine that a sinusoidal curve in fact was intended, but just some negative or positive values have been confused in the programming process.




-Data

Last edited by Mr. Data; 05-22-2010 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 05-23-2010, 12:59 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Data View Post
Thanks L0calh05t.

As I wrote my post, I discovered, that I couldn't see the graphics im many threads recently, although reloading the pages several times, but when I replied to a post, they suddenly appeared. I didn't always look at the source server of the pics. Maybe it's just stashbox. Dunno. And as I said, it wasn't always like this, just recently this happened more often.

strange.
Yeah, maybe their server is having problems a the moment. In any case I think it's unlikely that it is the forum itself.

Quote:
On topic: To me it looks like in Reaper the sinusoidal curve is there as well, just inverted on both sides. If the concave parts would be turned to convex, it could be right. But that's just an assumption out of what I see in Mercado's graphs. And if I'm right, I could imagine that a sinusoidal curve in fact was intended, but just some negative or positive values have been confused in the programming process.


-Data
If the upper part of the curve was inverted, you'd get an approximation of a sinusoidal taper. But simply inverting the upper part of the curve wouldn't work for the linear/-6dB mode, and would result in a large error in that case. There are functions that approximate sinusoidal or root tapers, but all of these will have gain errors, and there really isn't any reason not to use the actual functions in a DAW, as you can easily use a LUT (which is also an approximation, but usually a much better one).
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Old 05-23-2010, 04:17 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
Yeah, maybe their server is having problems a the moment. In any case I think it's unlikely that it is the forum itself.
Thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
If the upper part of the curve was inverted, you'd get an approximation of a sinusoidal taper. But simply inverting the upper part of the curve wouldn't work for the linear/-6dB mode, and would result in a large error in that case. There are functions that approximate sinusoidal or root tapers, but all of these will have gain errors, and there really isn't any reason not to use the actual functions in a DAW, as you can easily use a LUT (which is also an approximation, but usually a much better one).
Yes, haven't read the whole thread again, so I just forgot the LUT thing although it's really obvious and was discussed already.

I think, it's not just that there isn't any reason not to use the actual functions but in fact it would have huge drawbacks really if doing so, because it would steal valuable CPU time that can be used more efficiently when just using LUTs.





-Data
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Old 06-07-2010, 01:49 PM   #62
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Added Mercado's visualization of the issue to the first post.
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Old 07-19-2010, 01:00 AM   #63
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time for another monthly bump...
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:08 AM   #64
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Only 33 votes?! Wow, I expected more people to have found this a problem............I really hope this gets implemented correctly.
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Old 07-20-2010, 12:27 AM   #65
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I haven't got the slightest idea why. Apparently, UI and skinning enhancements are more important in an audio program.
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:52 AM   #66
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Well, we've got 3 more votes... now if those people were to chime in a little in this thread I wouldn't need to bump it time and time again

Anyways: one thought I had, if the final gain value (independent of pan and volume slider settings) for each channel could be set by extensions, this could be implemented that way, right?
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Old 07-22-2010, 09:22 AM   #67
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It's unfortunate that you've had to resort to contemplating extension solutions to this. It's arguably a bug (I think of it as a bug of sorts), and we need it fixed! Hang in there, I think Cockos will listen
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Old 07-22-2010, 10:17 AM   #68
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+1 voted.
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:37 AM   #69
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It's a question of who needs this, and how many of those people see your request.

I suspect almost all of them will be mixers. I voted for this some time ago. Perhaps they'll take this in to account when surround panners make an entrance.
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:48 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timlloyd View Post
It's unfortunate that you've had to resort to contemplating extension solutions to this. It's arguably a bug (I think of it as a bug of sorts), and we need it fixed! Hang in there, I think Cockos will listen
Actually, I consider it to be a bug as well, but it is a bug which cannot simply be fixed without offering the option to go back to the buggy method, as it would otherwise break existing projects by changing levels.

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It's a question of who needs this, and how many of those people see your request.

I suspect almost all of them will be mixers. I voted for this some time ago. Perhaps they'll take this in to account when surround panners make an entrance.
Surround panners require additional thought, since there are many ways to do it. And even more ways to do it wrong. Heck we don't even have stereo panning yet. Or correct mono panning. We do have a workable balance control.

In any case, here's a nice article about surround panning:
http://mue.music.miami.edu/thesis/jw...g_Methods.html
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:27 PM   #71
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I'm all for this. +1

Essentially, if you select other than a 0dB pan law, the application actually has a bug in it. If you enter a value that should produce equal power across the control range, the application is not giving you equal power. That is a bug. The dB specification here is not really being followed to begin with.

What you are asking for would be an extension, albeit a possibly nice one, to a bugfix imo.

I would need to look into it further, but I think the current implementation is some type of logarithmic curve, but not one that would be producing what I want to hear in a sweeping pan..

http://www.harmonycentral.com/docs/DOC-1106

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Old 07-23-2010, 12:19 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lance View Post
I'm all for this. +1

Essentially, if you select other than a 0dB pan law, the application actually has a bug in it. If you enter a value that should produce equal power across the control range, the application is not giving you equal power. That is a bug. The dB specification here is not really being followed to begin with.

What you are asking for would be an extension, albeit a possibly nice one, to a bugfix imo.
As I mentioned in my previous post, although I agree it is a bug it is a bug that can't be fixed without breaking previous projects, making this extension not only nice but necessary. If someone wants to reformulate this as a bug report, feel free to do so.

Quote:
I would need to look into it further, but I think the current implementation is some type of logarithmic curve, but not one that would be producing what I want to hear in a sweeping pan..

http://www.harmonycentral.com/docs/DOC-1106
This post http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...61&postcount=4 contains all curves including the current one. Which is not logarithmic or anything. It's a piecewise rational function. Dunno if you can do anything with that knowledge.
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Old 07-23-2010, 12:47 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by l0calh05t View Post
If someone wants to reformulate this as a bug report, feel free to do so.
Like you said, probably it best to leave as you have it in the FR section and have it pursued this way.

Quote:
This post http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...61&postcount=4 contains all curves including the current one. Which is not logarithmic or anything.
Some kind of Bezier function? Thanks. Somehow I skimmed through too quickly.
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Old 07-23-2010, 01:24 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Lance View Post
Like you said, probably it best to leave as you have it in the FR section and have it pursued this way.

Some kind of Bezier function? Thanks. Somehow I skimmed through too quickly.
A bézier curve is piecewise polynomial, so no, not quite.
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Old 07-25-2010, 03:21 PM   #75
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Thanks for the JS pantest2 plug...

works very nicely here including the automation..

So do we think that will become a native option someday?
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Old 08-08-2010, 03:12 AM   #76
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+1 vote.
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Old 08-08-2010, 07:08 AM   #77
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I'm just starting understanding pan laws but I can notice this is a serious thing to be corrected ASAP.

Ed.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:39 AM   #78
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Piling on: yeah, this should be changed.

BUT WHILE I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION,

an old FR: I would like the pan (and all knobs, actually), to have a more "damped" response. Meaning, less twitchy when I first drag on it - a slower response initially, then even, then a bit slower as I progress - since I'm wanting a more precise control as I reach where I want the panning to be.

I hate that when I "grab" a knob with the mouse I have to suddenly go into "fine motor control" mode when I most of the time only want to make a tiny alteration in value.

OR, when I close in on a value - I want to have more control. So effectively the throw of knob would be non-linear: slow (long) at first, then a little faster after a specified time (500ms?) then gradually slower (longer throw) again.

/ no, I'm not talking about the panning law, but *how* you adjust the panning.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:47 AM   #79
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+1 Reaper should definitely support these standard tapers.
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Old 08-08-2010, 10:57 AM   #80
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Quote:
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an old FR: I would like the pan (and all knobs, actually), to have a more "damped" response.
Doesn't <Ctrl><Left Mouse> do that now? I can click on the control, drag, and the response is fast and immediate, or use the <Ctrl> modifier and the response slows down considerably.

I have also noticed this particular implementation is not followed throughout however.

And a huge +1 to having standard pan laws and tapers available, if I didn't already say so.
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