Old 01-21-2019, 02:15 PM   #1
JewKing666
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Default Programmed Drum Mixing

So not having proper space to record live drums iv turned to programmed drums. Im using Perfect Drums at the moment and Iv also got some of the better Plugins at my disposal. Slate VMR, SSL channel, Massey Tape Head, various waves plugins.

1)Whats the main difference in MIDI samples and real drums? I know they are fake but the samples are taken from a real kit. How does this relate when mixing them?

2)If professional sound engineers are producing drums at a grade of A+ can a home studio engineer produce fake programmed drums at at least something like a B with enough experience programming and mixing?

3) When using any type of Drum VST im not having to deal with issues of live drums but something like Perfect drums adds processed FXs to them. Do I want to remove these to start with a cleaner slate when following tutorials of mixing real drums?


4)Iv got the kick, snare, OH, ect, routed out to individual channels but they don't record into the separate tracks. When adding plugins its effecting the sound of the channel but im not getting individual wav files for each piece of the kit.Is this fine to start mixing?

I appreciate any help. Iv scoured the net for a guide on this but I seem to be missing some crucial step or understanding in all of this.
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Old 01-21-2019, 02:40 PM   #2
Pinknoise
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1- One of the main difference is you don't have a real drummer to follow along. A generic beat will do ok but does'nt have the extra vibe from the real drummer really geting into the song. Another thing is the room. Having your own room personalizes your sound. samples tend to sound similar especially when everybody is using the same kits. If you are good at programming you can get extra vibe from the sampled kit but a lot of work compared to using a good drummer.

2- Sure you can get good results from programming but folks who are use to that sound usually can tell for the average listener not so much.

3-I always beat the preset mix with my own mix. The main reason IMO is that the premix kit does'nt necesserily sounds best with your other instruments. Other reason is you eventually know what you want as a drum mix and also you learn to like certain plugin sounds over the ones that come with drum program although in SD3 the plugins are very good but somehow limited for options.

4- There is an option in the fx window : create separate outputs for incoming inputs (something like that not on my pc right now). Then you want to select record output on each tracks. Also make sure the drum program also sends every peices of the kit to separate outputs.
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Old 01-21-2019, 02:58 PM   #3
DVDdoug
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I don't know anything about Perfect Drums and I don't own EZdrummer but I saved a Recording Magazine quote from a couple years ago:

Quote:
For nearly 20 years now, I've followed the submissions to our Reader's Tapes column looking for relationships between the gear used and the end results. I'm particularly interested the fact that many of our readers don't play drums themselves, or have a live drummer...

Some use drum machines, some drag and drop drum loops... and arrange them in their DAWs, some use rhythm box plug-ins, and the results are all over the map... Whether it's bad samples, unrealistic mixing, sloppy effects, or a groove no real drummer would play, these less-than-stellar drum tracks can drag an entire song down...

Comparing gear lists to critique results, a small handful of products could be traced consistently to excellent drum tracks. [EZdrummer] was not only among the most consistent of the virtual drummers but also among the most affordable.


Quote:
1)Whats the main difference in MIDI samples and real drums? I know they are fake but the samples are taken from a real kit. How does this relate when mixing them?
A real drummer can play with "feel", adjusting the timing & intensity of the hits. (This is different from "humanization" which is random/unplanned variations. That's more like a poor drummer or a drunk drummer.)

On the other hand, MIDI timing can be perfect. With modern recordings perfect timing seems to be the "in thing". And, you can do things with MIDI that a drummer can't do with two sticks and two feet. But, sometimes it's a "giveaway" when there's something on the recording that's impossible for a drummer to do without over-dubbing or programming.

"It's easier for a real drummer to sound like a machine than for a machine to sound like a real drummer".

Quote:
2)If professional sound engineers are producing drums at a grade of A+ can a home studio engineer produce fake programmed drums at at least something like a B with enough experience programming and mixing?
I assume with experience some home-producers can get professional sounding results. One advantage that amateurs often have is unlimited time. Pros usually have a deadline and a limited budget and most of their energy goes into vocals.

Quote:
3) When using any type of Drum VST im not having to deal with issues of live drums but something like Perfect drums adds processed FXs to them. Do I want to remove these to start with a cleaner slate when following tutorials of mixing real drums?
It's up to you, but leaving them "clean" gives you more flexibility when mixing.

Quote:
4)Iv got the kick, snare, OH, ect, routed out to individual channels but they don't record into the separate tracks. When adding plugins its effecting the sound of the channel but im not getting individual wav files for each piece of the kit.Is this fine to start mixing?
If you're getting a good mix without separate tracks, that's fine. But again, separate tracks gives you more flexibility and it allows different compression (or other effects) on the individual drums & cymbals. But, if the effects are too-different it won't sound like a real kit.

Last edited by DVDdoug; 01-21-2019 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 01-21-2019, 03:14 PM   #4
andrijatheloki
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Hey!

I wont answer by numbers, its all pretty much the same. So simply, using own VST drums , is much easier to do.

VST:
Pros:
-You don't need to place microphones, do 1000 checks about placement then after all still dig into mixing the same and get the good sound...* And that's only if you always keep the setup and just use it by the need*.

-If you find certain drums or combination *snare from one vst, toms from other etc*, you can always use the same setup. Most of them are already premixed which makes it even more easy..You will learn how they sound and how they are combined, making them very very easy to use every time you do another project. Basically, when you learn your drums once, you can always use them
*It applies the same for writing..as you write you will improve, and as you improve it would sound better and better, and if you would give people a blind check (as i did), lot of them won't be able to tell...

-Find onemanbands, lot of in metal/djent style and composers (I do the same... but not djent..hah) and listen to drums...they are all writen in studio by hand on some vst instrument.....You would be amazed...

cons: It may sound generic, and the same ( but that is if you always ALWAYS use same velocity for snare...and litterally loop drums without fills and some feeling) otherwise..its difficult, be creative

-It might not sound like real one...*Which if you dont know how to mix........can sound 10x worse then just using worse VST available and smashing with bad settings...hahah


Real: pros:
- If you have drummer..definitely awesome thing, *good drummer , it can sound really good and rich, and organic

- You learn how to mix real recorded drums, and how to record the same..

- Many other...(i guess)

cons: YOu have to learn how to record, how to position mics and all the rest so i dont repeat myself..and you have to learn how to play hahah(if you dont know already) , on vst drums you can do anything...you can do any fills that only few drummers can do...on real ones...you have to play it Have that in mind! Its also very difficult to quantatize....

Another advice:

Dont bother with plugins..plugins are the last step, dont go just smashing 100 plugins you can just destroy sound, first listen how it fits and how it all comes together, *snare sound kick, can you hear it even before mixing stage, does it blend, does it sound bad , good, quiet, or dull, after that at the end, go minimum plugins, first

EQ the unnecessary frequencies( hi , lowpas and such) then adjust volume, and then if necessary do some other processing... after all keep in mind that VST-drums are already pre mixed, so there is not much to do... Unless you are using Superior drummer and other drums that are "original" without any mixing, then you might apply the same mixing process as for the real drums But still be careful, That was also your question i believe...

Last thing, you can finish your drums and then mix them...(export to files), if you cant, separate always channels at least to most basic groups, kick snare hh, toms,amb comp..etc, and mix them , good thing is you can always rewrite if you dont like something later..still no difference


Cheers!
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