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11-18-2013, 12:44 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,572
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guitar amp sims - why does inserting this plug make them sound "better" ???
I am not a firm believer in "betterizers" or some kind of cure-all - but I have found something recently that seems to work really well in a stripped down version of amplitube that I have.
see, I think that amplitube sounds kind of like ass at times. It has its moments, but I find a lot of it unusable.
My weapon of choice is revalver, but like most other amp sims, I find a few models from each that work really well.
I inserted this plug before amplitube:
SoftAmp 3OD
just for the hell of it
and suddenly amplitube sounds usable, way more consistently.
is it just turning up the gain on the signal or something? My firepod has always been pretty good with the DI on it, and I've compared some other expensive DIs without any perceivable difference.
that being said,
is there something that could do this job better? It just feels more "shimmery" now, and clear.
Of course, I don't want to be using something that I don't have to, simple is better for me - so your thoughts would be appreciated.
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11-18-2013, 01:17 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: KW, Ontario
Posts: 268
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Awe, I was going to give it a try but it's Windows only :/
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Ambition, Transmission, Transition.
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11-18-2013, 02:04 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,090
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Well, it is a preamp simulator, so that makes sense. Interestingly, I was just on their website and saw "Charbooster", a plugin designed to go in front of an amp-sim... Their plugins are interesting and well coded, especially for free.
__________________
The Sounds of the Hear and Now.
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11-18-2013, 04:21 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 613
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Are you making sure you're getting good strong input into Amplitube without this plug-in? It makes all the difference in the world and that's obviously what this preamp type plugin is doing. Amplitube can sound bad if you don't have a good solid input signal - usually as close to clipping as you can get without actually clipping. It took me a while to figure that out.
I've actually got this plugin but have never used it. I'll have to try it out. In the end, use whatever it takes to achieve the sound you're after.
I've also been able to get some really good sounds out of Amplitube using Recabinet 3 (V 3.5.1 - the latest version) - especially using the 4 x 12 Green cabs for rock stuff. Crank the speaker dynamics knob up to 3 o'clock and the output to full, then adjust EQ to taste and pan cabs left and right (9 o'clock and 3 o'clock). You can use *both* the cab sims of Amplitube and Recabinet or just bypass Amplitube's cab sims. I've gotten good results working both ways.
__________________
“Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.” - George Carlin
"We are the facilitators of our own creative evolution." - Bill Hicks
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11-18-2013, 05:55 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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Sounds like something i stumbled on with Mach 5 and the sampled strat there.
I am no gtr amp expert and i generally didn't think Ampire sounded that great (what do i know about amp sims? Nothing.). But curiously enough, i accidentally left Mach 5's amp sim on before the other sim, and it sounded much better.
No clue why... but i do it on purpose now.
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11-18-2013, 06:09 PM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
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No clue why... but i do it on purpose now.
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LOL, we all know it already but that actually started with Jimi Hendrix and Pete Townsend before they were simulated. " For some reason, I don't know why, it sounds amazing cranked" 
It's one of the few instruments/technologies where failure of the components is what makes it sound good.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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11-18-2013, 09:22 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
I am not a firm believer in "betterizers" or some kind of cure-all - but I have found something recently that seems to work really well in a stripped down version of amplitube that I have.
see, I think that amplitube sounds kind of like ass at times. It has its moments, but I find a lot of it unusable.
My weapon of choice is revalver, but like most other amp sims, I find a few models from each that work really well.
I inserted this plug before amplitube:
SoftAmp 3OD
just for the hell of it
and suddenly amplitube sounds usable, way more consistently.
is it just turning up the gain on the signal or something? My firepod has always been pretty good with the DI on it, and I've compared some other expensive DIs without any perceivable difference.
that being said,
is there something that could do this job better? It just feels more "shimmery" now, and clear.
Of course, I don't want to be using something that I don't have to, simple is better for me - so your thoughts would be appreciated.
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Try this cab sim too.
http://mercuriall.iks.ru/cms/?p=145#more-145
Do a search here in the forums for it,someone posted a link to the files...you will find a link,hopefully still active,to download.
It's near impossible to get it from the plug's site.
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11-19-2013, 02:24 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Between the reef and the rainforest
Posts: 1,366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy M
I've also been able to get some really good sounds out of Amplitube using Recabinet 3 (V 3.5.1 - the latest version) - especially using the 4 x 12 Green cabs for rock stuff. Crank the speaker dynamics knob up to 3 o'clock and the output to full, then adjust EQ to taste and pan cabs left and right (9 o'clock and 3 o'clock). You can use *both* the cab sims of Amplitube and Recabinet or just bypass Amplitube's cab sims. I've gotten good results working both ways.
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I use this too, or just LeCab with guitar hacks impulses. It's those stinking Amplitube cabs that kill the sound I reckon...
If using Amplitube, bypass the cabs and use a good impulse/ loader makes a big difference
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11-19-2013, 06:14 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bolton, UK
Posts: 234
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CharBoost by the same people goes before every amp sim I use, it adds another stage of harmonics and a bit of eq shaping. In a similar vein I often use Ignite's TPA-1 after the amp, sometimes even across an entire mix, for a bit of saturation harmonic enhancement.
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11-19-2013, 02:00 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,958
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i have found that a quality input signal and proper analog and digital Gain staging is super important with amp sims.
I always use a countryman DI into my interface/preamp. I find it just sounds better than going straight in even if the input is a Hi Z instrument input. I guarantee that a good (radial/countryman) DI is higher fidelity than the Hi-z input on a pro-sumer level interface.
I have also found that high quality analog clean boost pedals can also have a positive effect on sim tone. They are basically little guitar friendly preamps that work very well to interface your guitar with your interface.
Another useful analog gizmo is compressor pedal. A little analog compression seems to help many amp sims. In the OP's case I'm betting that plug-in acts a bit like a tube compressor in front of Amplitube. That may explain the more consistent tone.
Once your in the digital domain I find it essential to use 3rd party cab sims. Recabinet, redwire, torpedo and even some freebies just kill the built in cabs found in most amp sim products. This is a HUGE tone improver.
Another plugin that just polishes the final tone is Tone boosters reelbus which is an inexpensive and VERY good tape saturation VST.
I use S-gear and I honestly can't believe how good it sounds. Its significantly better than my Line 6 HD-500 and good enough that i dont feel the "need" to mic my tube amp unless i want to.
Last edited by Magicbuss; 11-19-2013 at 02:14 PM.
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11-19-2013, 02:08 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
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i have found that a quality input signal and proper analog and digital Gain staging is super important with amp sims.
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I wanted to highlight that these are Amp SIMs. Even though I'm speaking from some digital VST ignorance, I can't see how a good one would ignore input level since well, that is what amps do, react according to input level.
Additionally, having that question, the quickest and easiest test is to increase the item gain (if already recorded) on the item itself. This means barring any other issues you can fix it after the fact.  This will both let you know if it is too low or if this is the issue. Point being if it is already near peaking it's probably enough to run the SIM, if low, move it up and the overdrive etc. should improve etc. assuming that is what was missing.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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11-19-2013, 02:10 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Somewhere Between 120 and 150 BPM
Posts: 7,968
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I agree with a hot signal from a DI or even a cheap Pre Amp like FMR RNPs series. If you want stereo use both DI's amd you'll at least have a clean sound with overhead that will make the Amp Sim sound more thicker, or powerful.
But nothing works better than an old piggy back silvetone or tube head into the audio interface.
I have seen so many amp sims my head could spin, but alway pre gain stage in hardware first have been the best sounding units.
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11-19-2013, 02:15 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,272
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I bought a Boosta Grande pedal awhile back, it totally improved my amp sim guitar tone. Much more signal, less noise.
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11-19-2013, 02:16 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,958
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I wanted to highlight that these are Amp SIMs. Even though I'm speaking from some digital VST ignorance, I can't see how a good one would ignore input level since well, that is what amps do, react according to input level.
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VST amp sims dont ignore input level but it can be fiddly to set it to the sweet spot. All i was suggesting is to make sure your levels look good all the way through the chain before deciding the tone is deficient.
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11-19-2013, 02:17 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicbuss
VST amp sims dont ignore input level but it can be fiddly to set it to the sweet spot. All i was suggesting is to make sure your levels look good all the way through the chain before deciding the tone is deficient.
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I was agreeing with you like 1000% It's a very easy problem to solve, get the right input level, if it is too low it will sound the same way it would if you turned the guitar volume knob down. We want it that way or adjusting the guitar controls would have no affect.
Unrelated, OT and in general. Please tell me people still use their guitar volume/tone controls since much of the tonal variations that matter are right there by our hands.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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11-19-2013, 02:30 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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All this talk is ok, but how about some sound to demonstrate what is being talked about?
I just tried the Softamp plugin. It adds some saturation, but I'm not hearing a major difference. I've used a tube preamp and stompbox, with no major difference there either.
Trying this Mercuriall Cab (first I have heard of it) - will have to see if it works in a mix. Initially I like it. It's definitely less bright and fizzy than Amplitube, but I'm not sure how I would get the kind of room sound that I get from Amplitube.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
Last edited by brainwreck; 11-19-2013 at 02:51 PM.
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11-20-2013, 04:34 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 152
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Tube plugin from Antares as well
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11-20-2013, 10:34 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NA - North Augusta South Carolina
Posts: 4,294
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It's algorithmic instead of convolved, and the overtones added are non-linear based on the input perhaps. Actual complexity versus a snap shot of complexity.
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11-20-2013, 12:25 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IXix
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Yup,...thanks again ED.
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11-20-2013, 01:04 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpIvy
I use this too, or just LeCab with guitar hacks impulses. It's those stinking Amplitube cabs that kill the sound I reckon...
If using Amplitube, bypass the cabs and use a good impulse/ loader makes a big difference
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Yes,..I like LeCab and Recabinet too......and I also agree with you about not using the cabinets in Amplitube or Guitar Rig.
They don't sound as good as the cab sims mentioned.
They all play nice with each other,and I've been able to get a lot of "guitar rig templates" built where it all runs very quiet when not playing,...no need for noise gates at all.
The biggest thing is they sound so good and offer so much versatility.
It just doesn't make sense to not take advantage of that.
Then when you talk about effects,....LOL,everything is worth looking at.
I have some favorite effects plugs that look like they will be key "guitar tone" building blocks for a long time too,...as they sound great,and are stupid simple to work with in combination with the amp and cabinet sims.
Now,if I had something to use as a control surface to work like a 'pedal board',I'd really be in high cotton.
Sadly,I'll have to wait for that luxury.
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11-20-2013, 01:15 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 21,551
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I rarely ever use amp sims, which probably explains my total ignorance about them in general.
Most of the guitarists I've recorded (who were not using real amps) just handed me a cable from the last stomp box in the chain or whatever. They'd usually have all that sorted out with their stomp boxes, and do whatever they do to the tones during the recording, switch from clean to distorted to chorused, whatever.
Can't say I've ever had to dial one up in software for anyone in a session ... good thing... since it would probably suck if left up to me. 
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11-20-2013, 01:32 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 399
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This talk of a preamp before the AD interface is one reason why an active instrument can help - if you don't have a stand-alone preamp in a box. The preamp assists with good signal level and impedance matching. One example is the BassLab in my avatar, which has a very high quality German preamp on-board fed by passive pickups.
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11-20-2013, 02:03 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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I played with Mercuriall Cab a bit yesterday. It reacts in a much more realistic way, but it is awfully dark, imo.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
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11-21-2013, 12:26 AM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: WALES, UK
Posts: 811
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I tried to download the library file twice yesterday & failed, it stops early & says it's finished but no!!
has anyone got the lib file they can put somewhere for easy D/L? or know a good D/L manager?
__________________
"I started out with nothing & i still have most of it left"(seasick steve)
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11-21-2013, 03:59 AM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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Jason... do you not have S-Gear???
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11-21-2013, 09:46 AM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
Jason... do you not have S-Gear???
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I don't - I tried it and didn't hear anything special. Unfortunately I didn't have a ton of time to demo it.
thats what sucks about me and demos.
I demoed VBC and S-gear (separate times) and had a few hours, and then got busy, and forgot for 2 weeks. Demo over.
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11-21-2013, 09:57 AM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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Jason... that is a funny tale
well hey, from what I know of your via your posts and links... I must say I am surprised...
I demo'ed it for about an hour and bought it immediately.
I don't know what sound you are after, but IMO S-Gear puts all the other gtr sims to shame.
Oh, and you will not need a pre-amp vst with it..
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11-21-2013, 10:08 AM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,572
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I never need a preamp VST with revalver or other sims that I use.
it only makes amplitube sound better.
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11-21-2013, 10:10 AM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
Jason... that is a funny tale
well hey, from what I know of your via your posts and links... I must say I am surprised...
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wait, what did this mean? lol
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11-21-2013, 10:37 AM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
I never need a preamp VST with revalver or other sims that I use.
it only makes amplitube sound better.
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Seriously, next time it happens try raising the item volume since that is pre VST just to see if it helps.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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11-21-2013, 10:50 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22,572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Seriously, next time it happens try raising the item volume since that is pre VST just to see if it helps.
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my signal is always maxxed
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11-21-2013, 10:56 AM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill
my signal is always maxxed
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If you play the track with the SIM bypassed what is the avg peak level when the track fader is at zero? Or even better there is an SWS command that will give you the RMS/Peak for the item. Just want to make sure we are on the same page as it is the item volume itself I'm talking about. Changing that absolutely must change the sound/tone/gain of the SIM.
^ My reference to "track" volume in the first sentence is just a trick/method to tell me what the original recorded level was so don't let that through anyone.
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Music is what feelings sound like.
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11-21-2013, 01:25 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: my space
Posts: 932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiff 41
I tried to download the library file twice yesterday & failed, it stops early & says it's finished but no!!
has anyone got the lib file they can put somewhere for easy D/L? or know a good D/L manager?
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Evil Dragon has it here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...04&postcount=2
__________________
You never know what's coming
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11-21-2013, 01:49 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiff 41
I tried to download the library file twice yesterday & failed, it stops early & says it's finished but no!!
has anyone got the lib file they can put somewhere for easy D/L? or know a good D/L manager?
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If Evil is cool with it, I will upload it.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
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11-21-2013, 01:51 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
Jason... that is a funny tale
well hey, from what I know of your via your posts and links... I must say I am surprised...
I demo'ed it for about an hour and bought it immediately.
I don't know what sound you are after, but IMO S-Gear puts all the other gtr sims to shame.
Oh, and you will not need a pre-amp vst with it.. |
Can you make a short demo to show us what you're talking about with S-Gear? I have demoed it at some point, and I have heard some examples of someone else using it. I'm open to hearing another perspective, though.
__________________
It's time to take a stand against the synthesizer.
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11-21-2013, 03:31 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: WALES, UK
Posts: 811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboPlankton
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The problem I've got Rob is I got no idea how to do the mirror thing!,, is the library in those files,I thought it was just the app?
Thanks Brainwreck as well!
__________________
"I started out with nothing & i still have most of it left"(seasick steve)
Last edited by jiff 41; 11-21-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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