EuCon support - FR posted - vote!

airon · 06-16-2011, 06:19 AM

Vote for it:

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3404

Discuss it here.

airon · 06-16-2011, 11:27 AM

I'm adding a brief description of the protocol here for clarity.

What is EuCon

It is a hardware controller protocol, managed by a central application running on your computer, on either Mac or PC.

EuCon devices are connected to the host via ethernet cables. Since they use the IP protocol the devices can be hooked up to your router or any other device that functions as a switch on your network.

The fader resolution is 1024 steps in most cases, and all the controllers feature touch sensitive knobs, faders or even touchscreens.

Configuration of the controllers can be controlled per application, and EuCon controllers can do much more than just interface with DAWs. Their buttons can be set to send keycommands as well. Everything on the controller is configurable via the EuCon software. That makes setups more flexible and portable.

airon · 06-22-2011, 05:39 AM

Friendly bump. Apparently not many people who frequent this forum have or plan on getting a EuCon capable controller.

Or most folks thing this isn't important. That leads to the question of why that is so.

This may very well be a Ford question.

Cockos has several choices, one of which we already know they've made, and that is picking control protocols and/or control surfaces to support.

OSC is coming, that much we do know, and that's great, except there are no control surfaces with tactile feedback (faders, knobs, buttons,etc. , i.e. all non-touch-screen controllers) at competitive prices. The Monome for example is not cheap at all.

Then there are control surfaces that Reaper does not yet support either because of its bad HUI support, or because the controller has no control surface plugin, such as the Akai APC20 and 40. They are generic midi controllers, which the user has to do all, not just some, of the setup work for.

Then there's EuCon, which along with OSC is the most advanced protocol, and probably the one best supported with semi-professional to professional-level controllers, and that range is going to grow.

So we have

Custom Control Surface plugins

The Alphatrack, the Presonus Faderport and the Mackie MCU appear to be the most popular here in the forum.
Control Protocols

HUI, MCU, OSC and EuCon fall under this category.

HUI is not fully supported, probably because of Mackies lack of support of the Reaper development team.

MCU is supported half the way. Klinkes plugin is superior in every way and puts Reapers own control plugin to shame.

OSC support is coming. Mostly touch-screen apps and a bunch of custom controllers like the Wii controllers and Monome, AFAIK.

EuCon. The professional and semi-professional choice by now because of speed, capability, configurability and choice of controllers.

As Scott Stillwell is trying to procure the EuCon SDK to write support in Reaper for it, which I'm presuming is the goal, we can be sure that something IS being done in this direction.

As for the Ford question, it's a matter of standing still because nobody knows what EuCon is going to do for them, or moving forward, because EuCon is simply an important option to provide to Reaper users when they choose a control surface.

Actually there might be touch-screen applications as well in the future.

So without EuCon, there is only the Mackie MCU and a couple of other MIDI controllers using MIDI resolution and speed.

OSC simply doesn't count for fader controllers yet because of the lack of such controllers. I'd love for there to be some, and please point them out if you know of any, but they don't seem to stand out enough for anyone like the respected Sound On Sound folks or any site that caters to mixers to mention.

So EuCon or MCU. Would you like to stand still ?

Gorgorgathgorgorgor · 06-29-2011, 06:01 PM

As I mentioned when I put in my +1 vote, we'll be going back to Logic when our Artist Mix controller comes in. pthbt.

airon · 09-26-2011, 04:48 AM

Looks like we need a friendly bump for this.

Put your backs in to it people. Tell your friends, vote for this.

In this thread you can also state why you want Eucon support in Reaper, as others have done already.

Draulym · 10-08-2011, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airon

Looks like we need a friendly bump for this...

Does 3 weeks count as a zombie thread?? Anyhoo, I've just replaced my 003 desk with a 003R+ and a MC Mix - being able to use this setup in Reaper would be awesome!!

l0calh05t · 10-08-2011, 04:44 AM

Already voted ages ago, but this is definitely something Reaper needs. But with the vote system this is unlikely to reach the necessary limit...

airon · 10-08-2011, 05:14 PM

Does anyone have any technical background information on how EuCon actually works ?

My general impression is that it's a server running between the gear and the host program, with general control asserted by the server, and specific control with some kind of detailed library.

I do wonder how it's all organized. The host must be able to provide its own list of commands and feedback methods for stuff like this to work.

airon · 10-09-2011, 07:48 AM

Nick, I have no idea how far Cockos has come in implementing EuCon support for Reaper.

Maybe that already have the SDK, maybe not. I only heard rumors but that won't help us now.

Let's hope they take this serious enough. I'm pretty curious what they're up to right now anyway. It's been rather quiet.

Nick Morris · 10-09-2011, 03:35 PM

Seriously. Can I donate to the cause to get this going or what? I just got done working in pro tools, the whole time wishing I could just stop and start working in reaper with my Euphonix.

yagonnawantthatcowbell · 10-11-2011, 11:47 AM

I voted! I would rather have full MCU support, as that's what I already own and extenders and c4s are relatively cheap. Truth is, I'll get behind having any controller supported and the Eucon protocol looks as good as any.

Nick Morris · 10-12-2011, 10:00 AM

agreed.

I think I could use a mackie/hui protocol if needed, although I would prefer the Eucon over any.

drakem · 10-12-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Morris

agreed.

I think I could use a mackie/hui protocol if needed, although I would prefer the Eucon over any.

I tried to hook up my MCpro via HUI/Mackie to REAPER...Doesn't work at all

If Reaper gets EuconPro support, I'm in in 5 secs. Until then Nuendo for me.

Win Conway · 10-13-2011, 08:46 AM

I'm not adverse to getting this protocol supported, but lets be honest here, Reaper is not used (Beyond a very few users here in the forum) in circles that would allow a budget of over £1200 (Yep pounds not dollars) for an 8 channel controller.
Cheaper controllers should be supported first at least, this would cover more of Reapers user base surely ?

And to put the icing on the cake, for less than £1200 and maybe 2 - 3 .days work i can use MIDIbox and build an OSC motor fader board myself with 48 faders and so on

So while like i say i am not adverse to this protocol, there seems little point with the nature of most of Reapers user base (Project/bedroom studios)

Muziekschuur · 10-13-2011, 08:51 AM

I'd love a HUI remote controll done...

l0calh05t · 10-13-2011, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

And to put the icing on the cake, for less than £1200 and maybe 2 - 3 .days work i can use MIDIbox and build an OSC motor fader board myself with 48 faders and so on

with a full 8 bits of resolution... yay.

Quote:

So while like i say i am not adverse to this protocol, there seems little point with the nature of most of Reapers user base (Project/bedroom studios)

The reason for this might be that reaper lacks basic DAW features like proper support for control surfaces... due to things like this I would personally consider Reaper's commercial license to be overpriced (the non-commercial license on the other hand is great!). All in all... I think this is a bit of a "chicken and egg" problem.

airon · 10-13-2011, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

I'm not adverse to getting this protocol supported, but lets be honest here, Reaper is not used (Beyond a very few users here in the forum) in circles that would allow a budget of over £1200 (Yep pounds not dollars) for an 8 channel controller.
Cheaper controllers should be supported first at least, this would cover more of Reapers user base surely ?

And to put the icing on the cake, for less than £1200 and maybe 2 - 3 .days work i can use MIDIbox and build an OSC motor fader board myself with 48 faders and so on

So while like i say i am not adverse to this protocol, there seems little point with the nature of most of Reapers user base (Project/bedroom studios)

The proportion of folks using a EuCon controller is probably not going to be very high, which at that price point and the kind of workflows they are aimed at, isn't all surprising.

The same would have to be said about the MCU, but if that didn't matter as much, we wouldn't have seen so many people want to use Klinkes plugin. That protocol is used by more than just the Mackie devices of course.

The number of people that are going to build their own device is much smaller than that. If they put something together and can team up to program their own controller plugin, power to that.

The problem here is a number of people with a little more ambition for mixing workflows using faders being left almost completely out in the cold. Touch-sensitive controllers are where the action is. If it wasn't for Klinkes plugin, Reaper could be said to support none of the more-than-one-fader touch-sensitive controllers to anything more than what I might call "not usable", because nobody's probably using it.

1200 pounds may stand at the lower end of mixing workflows. The MCU and MCU Pro are much less than that. Some people have highly competent HUI-capable units, which are almost not usable because of Reapers sub-sub-standard implementation. The same goes for the MCU for OSX folks. The Artist mix unit is around 1050 pounds last I checked. The control unit is $1200 pounds. This is where EuCon use starts, though the transport unit at around $400 is part of that collection as well, and let's not forget the colour wheel unit(~1200 pounds).

Reaper shouldn't just support the lower priced hardware for mixing and editing workflows. It's fine that we have all this configurability, but what about solutions ready to go, like the Presonus Faderport, just with more faders and functions ?

Those people are here asking for it, and who knows how many more there are out there not voicing their concern or sitting on the fence until Reaper has something for them to use their hardware with.

HUI, MCU, EuCon. Ready to go. Like the Akai APC series for Live, any HUI surface for Protools, any MCU device for Cubase/Nuendo/StudioOne/Live, any EuCon device for Nuendo/Cubase/Pyramix/Protools.

The controller world is very large and Reaper's hardly tapping in to it.

Nick Morris · 10-13-2011, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airon

Reaper shouldn't just support the lower priced hardware for mixing and editing workflows. It's fine that we have all this configurability, but what about solutions ready to go, like the Presonus Faderport, just with more faders and functions ?

Those people are here asking for it, and who knows how many more there are out there not voicing their concern or sitting on the fence until Reaper has something for them to use their hardware with.

HUI, MCU, EuCon. Ready to go. Like the Akai APC series for Live, any HUI surface for Protools, any MCU device for Cubase/Nuendo/StudioOne/Live, any EuCon device for Nuendo/Cubase/Pyramix/Protools.

The controller world is very large and Reaper's hardly tapping in to it.

The people I work with refuse to work on Reaper because it slows them down not being able to use the control surface. They do not want to use the mouse to mix. the control surface console in our facility is positioned purposefully in the sweet spot. Moving over to the desk or bringing a mouse and keyboard stand to be able to work in Reaper is not going to happen. So until Reaper has Eucon, they won't use it no matter how great they think it is. It was referred to the other day at the studio as "a high performance race car with no gas in the tank" to them.

I love Reaper and use it whenever I can. Eucon would make everything at my place so much better.

Nick Morris · 10-13-2011, 10:02 AM

I was given a response from Avid that any software developer can apply for use of the Eucon protocol. It is then up to Avid to review the viability of the partnering and its direction with regards to Eucon. There is a simple form from a link that he sent me.

http://www.avid.com/us/partners/deve...am/audioPlugin

I would hope that Cockos has filled this out already. If not, would you please. This would at least put it into Avids hands to make a decision if Reaper would be allowed Eucon.

EUCON (Extended User Control) High-Speed Ethernet Control Protocol
Avid’s EUCON Control builds on the exciting innovations of Euphonix to allow compatible software applications to communicate with Avid control surfaces. Avid is dedicated to supporting EUCON, broadening its reach and enhancing its features. If you are interested in adding EUCON support to your application, Avid wants to hear from you.

EUCON includes the following features and benefits:

High-speed Ethernet networked control including Gigabit Ethernet
High-resolution (16bit) fader & knob control
Control includes EUCON, HUI & Mackie Control Protocols
EUCON transports trackball & keyboard over Ethernet simplifying cabling
MacOS and PC Compatibility
Controls multiple workstations & applications simultaneously
Control switches to match software application
Support from industry-leading applications including major digital audio workstations.
Allows hardware surface direct access to software application command sets
Allows DAW plug-in control from channel strips
Supports multi-format metering, EQ & Pan curve displays with EUCON aware software applications
Works with Euphonix Artist Series
apply now

airon · 10-13-2011, 10:44 AM

Thanks for pointing this out.

Link is slightly incomplete. The complete link is here.

-edit- I've updated the request with the link and the feature list. Thank you for pointing me to that website Nick.

And btw, a license for the HUI specs can probably be obtained here, since Loud Technologies apparently own the HUI specs :

Matt Redmon
c/o Loud Technologies/Mackie
16220 Wood-Red Road NE
Woodinville, WA 98072 US
(800) 898-3211
(425) 487-4337
ATTN: HUI Protocol License Inquiry

I got the information from this page of the Avid website.

Win Conway · 10-13-2011, 12:52 PM

From your post i am not entirely sure if you agree with me that MCU and such should be done first or not ?

I don't however get the "Users left out in the cold" remark, come on now be fair, Reaper is a $60 app and you get what you pay for, I don't see any of the other apps in Reapers price bracket having massive controller support either (And surely we are not comparing Reaper to PT or Cubendo or any of the other hi end apps, there is a reason they cost so much you know, they have all the features)

Nick Morris · 10-13-2011, 01:50 PM

I never use price as a factor when making comparisons. In Reapers case, you get waaay more than you pay for. Reapers "price bracket" has nothing to do with anything.

To me Reaper has as much and as many "features" as anything else, including Cubendo, PT, and all those other hi end apps. -Just not on the controller side.

l0calh05t · 10-13-2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

From your post i am not entirely sure if you agree with me that MCU and such should be done first or not ?

I don't however get the "Users left out in the cold" remark, come on now be fair, Reaper is a $60 app and you get what you pay for, I don't see any of the other apps in Reapers price bracket having massive controller support either (And surely we are not comparing Reaper to PT or Cubendo or any of the other hi end apps, there is a reason they cost so much you know, they have all the features)

Reaper is a $60 app for non-comercial/low revenue users for anyone else it's a $225 app and should most certainly not have these limitations!

yagonnawantthatcowbell · 10-13-2011, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

From your post i am not entirely sure if you agree with me that MCU and such should be done first or not ?

I don't however get the "Users left out in the cold" remark, come on now be fair, Reaper is a $60 app and you get what you pay for, I don't see any of the other apps in Reapers price bracket having massive controller support either (And surely we are not comparing Reaper to PT or Cubendo or any of the other hi end apps, there is a reason they cost so much you know, they have all the features)

I'm all for Eucon support, but I think MCU/HUI is a much better candidate to start with. They are cheaper, and lots of control surfaces have built in mcu or hui emulation. Lots of users here with the bcf/bcr2000 units. Lots of old mackie control universal and the newer mackie control pros out there. Ideally we'll get support for both, but I don't see a lot of people shelling out $1200+ to control a $60 app.

The thing is, Reaper at $60 is a steal for the consumer, but the $225 license is a ripoff for the pro user if they want a control surface based workflow.

l0calh05t · 10-13-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yagonnawantthatcowbell

The thing is, Reaper at $60 is a steal for the consumer, but the $225 license is a ripoff for the pro user if they want a control surface based workflow.

Harsher words than I would have used... but +1

Gorgorgathgorgorgor · 11-30-2011, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yagonnawantthatcowbell

I'm all for Eucon support, but I think MCU/HUI is a much better candidate to start with. They are cheaper, and lots of control surfaces have built in mcu or hui emulation. Lots of users here with the bcf/bcr2000 units. Lots of old mackie control universal and the newer mackie control pros out there. Ideally we'll get support for both, but I don't see a lot of people shelling out $1200+ to control a $60 app.

The thing is, Reaper at $60 is a steal for the consumer, but the $225 license is a ripoff for the pro user if they want a control surface based workflow.

Too bad Avid's support of mackie/hui on the MC line (now Artist or whatever stupid thing they are calling it now) is a disaster, For the amount of $ they want for this stuff, it should just freaking work! [I know it's not Reaper's fault because I'm running AC7 on Mackie in Reaper and it's butter. Death to Avid! (metaphorically of course)]

mks · 12-14-2011, 05:07 PM

I just wanted to make a comment regarding my strong vote to have this. I'm planning to expand my business and am currently built around a EuCon control workflow. Reaper seems to be the best solution to the new expanded workflow that I'm going for...except for the lack of EuCon. You guys are developing an amazing platform here and I'd really enjoy moving forward with it and having everyone on my team use Reaper, but I would desperately need this to make it scaleable.

airon · 12-14-2011, 06:28 PM

Protools 10 has excellent EuCon integration. They call it phase 2, and Protools 11 will be phase 3 I'm told, total integration.

We'll see if Cockos can make anything happen in this regard, and if it wants to actually attract anybody who wants to work with EuCon control surfaces.

I do advise you to write to support at cockos dot com directly. The more real need they see, the more likely they are to prioritize something like this.

peterpressure · 01-27-2012, 01:55 PM

What is the latest on this?

What is wrong with OSC?

Eucon to OSC middleware perhaps as a solution?

I want to help...

schwa · 01-27-2012, 02:01 PM

We contacted Avid in December and again in January asking for documentation or any other information about the Eucon protocol. No response, unfortunately.

EvilDragon · 01-27-2012, 02:52 PM

Can't win against Avid's monopoly, I guess, if they're really that rude and withholding the info...

Or perhaps they really think of Reaper as a threat? "If we give them EuCon, they add proper area selection, we might be doomed!"

Gorgorgathgorgorgor · 01-28-2012, 10:14 AM

Avid is absolutely frightened of Reaper, as is Logic and any other DAW watching their market share drop.

timlloyd · 01-28-2012, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Can't win against Avid's monopoly, I guess, if they're really that rude and withholding the info...

Or perhaps they really think of Reaper as a threat? "If we give them EuCon, they add proper area selection, we might be doomed!"

Unfortunately, there's almost definitely some truth to both those theories

airon · 01-28-2012, 12:27 PM

We can ask some folks with contacts to Avid. Russ and Shane.

CaptainHook · 01-28-2012, 04:39 PM

We could all start emailing the addresses on this page... ?

http://euphonix.avid.com/artist/ux/e..._contacts.html

timlloyd · 01-28-2012, 04:41 PM

I really do not think that spamming tech support staff is what JCS would want done on their behalf.

airon · 01-28-2012, 04:49 PM

The Avid folks are either overworked, sloppy, made an innocent mistake or are deliberately stone-walling. I hope it's just a christmas holiday fluke and someone just made a simple mistake. I've heard of that happening at Avid more than once.

So, as of now all is innocent until proven guilty by stronger evidence.

schwa · 01-28-2012, 04:51 PM

Please don't hassle them. Sometimes people don't return emails, it happens.

Gorgorgathgorgorgor · 01-29-2012, 07:50 AM

I did finally get my mc mix working in reaper, on a mac, using mackie protocol. Not all functionality is there, (no track metering for example) the Avid tech support guy was excellent, and very patient with a rather grumpy me. It has been really nice to have physical faders again, and once i got it working its been great

Dhyan Mikael · 02-01-2012, 12:52 PM

Missing Eucon support in Reaper is the single reason why I can't seriously consider Reaper over Cubase 6. It is a shame but... after testing a lot of control surfaces, I have settled on an array of Avid McMixes and an McTransport controller a long time ago, and I won't let go of them anymore.

I would love to see Eucon support in Reaper.

Regards, Dhyan Mikael