Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[Funkybot]

Added the updated MFTwister files a few posts up.

Or just click here: https://forum.cockos.com/attachment....8&d=1577915090

It's still using Fader7Bit over encoders for now but could change in the future.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

3. Bug: when twisting knobs on the surface, I can turn VST FX parameters well-beyond their normal parameter ranges. This seems bad. Example: I can create negative pre-delay times on Valhalla VintageVerb because the knob doesn't stop at 0 anymore. Or in EQuilibrium, the gain knobs keep turning after I pass -18db (which is the limit). Or get -438ms attack times in ReaComp. It seems like bounds are not being respected.

This happens quite a lot. It seems to be down to whether the plugin has restricted the input from controllers to the bounds of the on screen controls or just not bothered.

It can put the control into a non operational state or crash the system (Slate Trigger will do this)

In some plugins, the control 'wraps around' Acustica N4 does this. Very alarming when the controlled parameter is the makeup gain of a compressor. When you go past "0" (anticlockwise) suddenly you're at maximum gain!

Some manufacturers get it right. Plugin Alliance and TDR are pretty dependable. ReaEQ used to suffer from this but at some point, it was fixed

Perhaps with the introduction of SteppedFXParam, we could also have way of setting bounds for the regular encoder, to save the manufacturers from themselves

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Added the updated MFTwister files a few posts up.

Or just click here: https://forum.cockos.com/attachment....8&d=1577915090

It's still using Fader7Bit over encoders for now but could change in the future.

Do you still get the bounds issue when using Fader7Bit?

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Do you still get the bounds issue when using Fader7Bit?

No. Only with the encoder plain.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

No. Only with the encoder plain.

Good Notwithstanding the somewhat limited fixed resolution of Fader7Bit, when it's implemented on an endless rotary with an LED ring for feedback it represents a good solution.

Because it's endless there are no value "jumps"- the control always matches the on screen value.

I have a BCR2000 I normally use for synth programming, but I've recently built a .mst for it to explore the remaining FX mapping issues.

Like the MFT, you can set it up as Encoder or Absolute (Fader7Bit) When it's in Absolute mode, it can control all the FX parameters that are inaccessible to my (Encoder based) Mackie C4.

Hence the need for the SteppedFXParam

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

No. Only with the encoder plain.

Yeah, EncoderPlain is experimental, if implemented it will be properly range checked.

[RobinGShore]

Eucon's still making Reaper crash for me with the latests builds. Same behavior as before, if CSI is configured with a Eucon surface, Reaper crashes as soon as I add Eucon to Reaper's Surface list.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Good Notwithstanding the somewhat limited fixed resolution of Fader7Bit, when it's implemented on an endless rotary with an LED ring for feedback it represents a good solution.

Because it's endless there are no value "jumps"- the control always matches the on screen value.

Yeah, that's exactly how the MFTwister works and it's a joy to use that way.

[WaveTrans]

Happy new year to everyone here!

I wanted to test the latest build (Win10, Reaper 6.02);
found that CSI is not listed in the Control Surface Mode pull down menu.

So I tried different older builds; the last that shows up in the menu is from around 14 of December 2019.

All builds since then, 26th, 31st and 1st, are not shown in the menu.

Wondering what´s going on.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by WaveTrans

Happy new year to everyone here!

I wanted to test the latest build (Win10, Reaper 6.02);
found that CSI is not listed in the Control Surface Mode pull down menu.

So I tried different older builds; the last that shows up in the menu is from around 14 of December 2019.

All builds since then, 26th, 31st and 1st, are not shown in the menu.

Wondering what´s going on.

I think you're now the third person to report that problem.

I'm on Windows 10 and Reaper 6.02 (+latest dev build) and it's been working here throughout.

[Funkybot]

Just tried Eucon again...

1. It started on Track 9 this time. I'm assuming because the MFTwister was channels 1-8.

So my side question is this: would it be possible to have both units act independently of each other in the current iteration of CSI? So tracks 1-8 could appear on both surfaces if I wanted and I could bank them independently? If so, how would I set that up?

2. As to Eucon itself...only one fader is operational per bank. Example: when I had tracks 9-16 showing, only the fader for the clap track (channel 11) came up. The rest remained at zero. When I removed the MFTwister and tried again, only the Hat channel (#6) in bank 1-8 was operational, and the clap channel (11) in the next track bank.

These were tied to different faders on the Artist Mix so it's not like it was the same fader and the others didn't work at all. Also, if I nudged the track, the working channel fader nudged accordingly.

[EDIT]
I found the problem! If a track in a project has it's faders at unity level, CSI/Eucon isn't moving the fader to the correct position when it initializes the surface. It's treating it like the fader is at minimum level versus 0db/unity. The second I move the faders with my mouse and change their levels, it's fine. This is just a test project I've been using to try CSI stuff out on, so a lot of the tracks are at unity and it was looking like the faders weren't working because they were staying at their minimum value. Hopefully this is an easy fix for Geoff.

3. When you restart Reaper, the surface does become active (i.e. the Pan and channel numbers appear as soon as Reaper opens) so there's some communication happening between Reaper and Eucon. But if I open a project, nothing changes. I even tried "Restart all Eucon applications" to see if that would work, and there was no change. Note: we're not talking about it disconnecting after a long period of inactivity or anything. This was all within a minute.

I can get it to wake up again but I have to 1) open a project first, 2) remove Eucon from the Control Surfaces, then 3) add Eucon again for it to fire back up.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

Eucon's still making Reaper crash for me with the latests builds. Same behavior as before, if CSI is configured with a Eucon surface, Reaper crashes as soon as I add Eucon to Reaper's Surface list.

Hmmm...

So strange, we have identical versions of everything...

Are you using the latest CSI folder too ? -- just checking

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by WaveTrans

Happy new year to everyone here!

I wanted to test the latest build (Win10, Reaper 6.02);
found that CSI is not listed in the Control Surface Mode pull down menu.

So I tried different older builds; the last that shows up in the menu is from around 14 of December 2019.

All builds since then, 26th, 31st and 1st, are not shown in the menu.

Wondering what´s going on.

You are saying that putting some dlls in the folder works and with other dlls it doesn't ?

Wow, no idea what's up with that.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Just tried Eucon again...

1. It started on Track 9 this time. I'm assuming because the MFTwister was channels 1-8.

So my side question is this: would it be possible to have both units act independently of each other in the current iteration of CSI? So tracks 1-8 could appear on both surfaces if I wanted and I could bank them independently? If so, how would I set that up?

Not yet, but that feature is planned.

Originally Posted by Funkybot

2. As to Eucon itself...only one fader is operational per bank. Example: when I had tracks 9-16 showing, only the fader for the clap track (channel 11) came up. The rest remained at zero. When I removed the MFTwister and tried again, only the Hat channel (#6) in bank 1-8 was operational, and the clap channel (11) in the next track bank.

These were tied to different faders on the Artist Mix so it's not like it was the same fader and the others didn't work at all. Also, if I nudged the track, the working channel fader nudged accordingly.

[EDIT]
I found the problem! If a track in a project has it's faders at unity level, CSI/Eucon isn't moving the fader to the correct position when it initializes the surface. It's treating it like the fader is at minimum level versus 0db/unity. The second I move the faders with my mouse and change their levels, it's fine. This is just a test project I've been using to try CSI stuff out on, so a lot of the tracks are at unity and it was looking like the faders weren't working because they were staying at their minimum value. Hopefully this is an easy fix for Geoff.

3. When you restart Reaper, the surface does become active (i.e. the Pan and channel numbers appear as soon as Reaper opens) so there's some communication happening between Reaper and Eucon. But if I open a project, nothing changes. I even tried "Restart all Eucon applications" to see if that would work, and there was no change. Note: we're not talking about it disconnecting after a long period of inactivity or anything. This was all within a minute.

I can get it to wake up again but I have to 1) open a project first, 2) remove Eucon from the Control Surfaces, then 3) add Eucon again for it to fire back up.

Ah, try this, double click on a project file and start Reaper that way, see what happens.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Hmmm...

So strange, we have identical versions of everything...

Are you using the latest CSI folder too ? -- just checking

Yup, I am. I deleted all the files and re-downloaded a few times just to be sure, but it's the same thing every time. The lack of a crash log is especially strange and frustrating.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ah, try this, double click on a project file and start Reaper that way, see what happens.

It works that way. But not if I open Reaper to a blank project, then open another project.

Note: the issue of unity gain faders not waking up until moved still happens regardless (not that I think you were implying it would work by opening the project directly from File Explorer).

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

It works that way. But not if I open Reaper to a blank project, then open another project.

Ok, noted as bug, for now workaround is available.

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Note: the issue of unity gain faders not waking up until moved still happens regardless (not that I think you were implying it would work by opening the project directly from File Explorer).

Yes, that's a handshaking/initialization issue, just another bug to add to the list

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up.

Some internal performance tuning.

On the initial config page there is a setting, "Control surface display update frequency".

The default is 15Hz.

Right now I'm running a pretty snappy 65 Hz -- feels good.

Feel free to play around with that setting.

Would be interesting to find out how far the "pure" midi folks can push it

[RobinGShore]

Just tried again using a different computer, my old 2011 macbook air which is running macOS 10.13.6 (High Sierra). Getting the same crash on there too

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

On the initial config page there is a setting, "Control surface display update frequency".

The default is 15Hz.

Right now I'm running a pretty snappy 65 Hz -- feels good.

Feel free to play around with that setting.

Would be interesting to find out how far the "pure" midi folks can push it

What does this actually affect? I can't see any difference between 1Hz and 65Hz

[Funkybot]

Hi Geoff, would it be possible to name the new Eucon controller in Reaper's Preferences "Eucon CSI" or something like that? For the sake of the Alpha, I'll be happy to test any new Eucon builds but for actual work, I need to switch back to the old, non-CSI, Eucon beta. It would be nice if these two could co-exist more easily to facilitate easy switching back and forth.

[WaveTrans]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

You are saying that putting some dlls in the folder works and with other dlls it doesn't ?

Wow, no idea what's up with that.

Yes, replaced the old .dll with the new build´s and it didn´t show up any more. This "update strategy" worked fine so far.

I then tried the other builds but the only one showing was the one from middle of december.

So I replaced the CSI folder, removed CSI.ini etc. In the end I did a complete re-install of CSI. Restarted the PC after every change, of course, but to no avail, only the mentioned version of the CSI.dll shows up in the menu.

Very strange, since (in this respect) everything worked fine so far.

Will be testing the most recent build this evening.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

Just tried again using a different computer, my old 2011 macbook air which is running macOS 10.13.6 (High Sierra). Getting the same crash on there too

Ugghh...

Investigating...

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

What does this actually affect? I can't see any difference between 1Hz and 65Hz

Neither do I now, it used to do something, investigating...

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Hi Geoff, would it be possible to name the new Eucon controller in Reaper's Preferences "Eucon CSI" or something like that? For the sake of the Alpha, I'll be happy to test any new Eucon builds but for actual work, I need to switch back to the old, non-CSI, Eucon beta. It would be nice if these two could co-exist more easily to facilitate easy switching back and forth.

Nope

Seriously, you've given me everything I need, you have proven a working system on Windows.

The EuCon dll logic is now so simple that, if it works on my system, it will work on yours, the bugs you found will also be on my system, etc.

As far as the naming, the idea is to supersede the old dll, they are named the same on purpose

So no worries, go back to the old one, I won't bother you until we have a full working system

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Nope

Seriously, you've given me everything I need, you have proven a working system on Windows.

The EuCon dll logic is now so simple that, if it works on my system, it will work on yours, the bugs you found will also be on my system, etc.

As far as the naming, the idea is to supersede the old dll, they are named the same on purpose

So no worries, go back to the old one, I won't bother you until we have a full working system

I’m happy to test along the way if there is Eucon stuff you need tested along the way. Just have a very nice workflow going at moment for production/mixing using CSI+old Eucon.

[poetnprophet]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up.

Touch and Pin now supported for SelectedTrackNavigator and FocusedFXNavigator.

Hi Geoff and all, happy 2020!

how does this work?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Hi Geoff and all, happy 2020!

how does this work?

Happy 2020 to you as well !

I actually never tested it, just enabled the capability, try it out and let me know what you find

[Geoff Waddington]

New reaper_csurf_EuCon is up.

This is only for folks on a Mac with EuCon surfaces.

Please put the dylib in the right place and see if the immediate crash stops.

[DTx]

Hi, thanks for putting time into it!

Is this project open source? Do you have github?

I also have a problem - my behringer x-touch in mcu+usb mode doesn't show me channel meters. I've tried in other DAWs and they work. I also found this post - https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...1&postcount=35. So it's not only me... I'm using defaults that come in CSI folder.

BTW, refresh rate is a killer - makes x-touch faders so smooth!

[WaveTrans]

Tested the new build, but CSI still doesn´t show up in the Control Surface Mode pull down menu.

reloaded and reinstalled everything, including reaper, nothing works, except the build from 14.12.2019.

Don´t know what to do, feeling a bit desparate....

Edit: still desparate, but observed that the csi dll is sometimes extensively scanned upon reaper start-up vst scan

does that mean anything?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by DTx

Hi, thanks for putting time into it!

Is this project open source?

It is closed source.

Originally Posted by DTx

I also have a problem - my behringer x-touch in mcu+usb mode doesn't show me channel meters. I've tried in other DAWs and they work. I also found this post - https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...1&postcount=35. So it's not only me... I'm using defaults that come in CSI folder.

Yes, known issue, will be tackled during beta.

Originally Posted by DTx

BTW, refresh rate is a killer - makes x-touch faders so smooth!

Thanks, our project goal, response-wise, is to achieve live performance refresh rates -- 5 msec latency max -- about 200Hz refresh rate.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by WaveTrans

Tested the new build, but CSI still doesn´t show up in the Control Surface Mode pull down menu.

reloaded and reinstalled everything, including reaper, nothing works, except the build from 14.12.2019.

Don´t know what to do, feeling a bit desparate....

Edit: still desparate, but observed that the csi dll is sometimes extensively scanned upon reaper start-up vst scan

does that mean anything?

Hmmm...

Seems strange that the vst scan is picking it up.

That could mean that there is a copy of the csi dll in the vst search path, or the vst search path is pointing somewhere it doesn't need to (and probably shouldn't), or both.

Check all this out, you may be on to something here.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by WaveTrans

Edit: still desparate, but observed that the csi dll is sometimes extensively scanned upon reaper start-up vst scan

does that mean anything?

Just to provide an external frame of reference: if I launch Reaper here, the splash screen appears, it says "scanning plugins" for a while (I believe this is a check for new VST2/VST3 plugins), then some text will flash really quickly, and in that I'll see something like "Loading Plugin: csuf_eucon_64.dll" and some others wizz by. I think that's Reaper loading "Reaper Plugin" .dll's, not necessarily treating them like VST2/VST3 plugins. Is that what you're seeing? If so, that might be normal (works here anyway).

But definitely go in and make sure that you don't have the "Reaper (x64)\Plugins" folder listed as a VST Plugin Folder in your Reaper preferences. I could definitely see that causing issues.

But, you've been using CSI for longer than I have, so I suspect it's not that and there's something else going on. It seems weird that at least 3 people (all on Windows? I am, but again, it works here) have suddenly reported issues with these newer releases, starting at the same build and persisting across a few builds.

Last question/thing to check: are you also installing the new CSI Eucon.dll from Geoff's signature? I have been. Even if you don't use Eucon, try installing the CSI eucon .dll anyway. Maybe a dependency somehow got built in. That's a total shot in the dark, but I'm a Eucon user, so it just sticks out as an area where maybe we could be doing things differently. And it's also the build where Geoff introduced Eucon that caused the issues so I wouldn't be surprised if there's some Eucon related dependency that accounts for why it works here and not on other systems. Again...total guess. But just trying to rule things out.

[RobinGShore]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New reaper_csurf_EuCon is up.

This is only for folks on a Mac with EuCon surfaces.

Please put the dylib in the right place and see if the immediate crash stops.

Still crashing.

[WaveTrans]

As suggested from you, Geoff, quoted below, I checked all paths and removed any paths which may involve the plugins folder;
also checked for any old CSI .dlls in the plugin folder and elsewhere.

Reaper start-up then indicated loading of the CSI plugin, which appears separate from the vst scan performed.

Unfortunately CSI does not show up in the menu.

I then tried if any eucon plug dependencies are causing this as Funkybot suggested (see below) which made me wonder how to install it in the first place.

Not shure, if it´s correct but tried it like this:
- downloaded and put the “reaper_csurf_eucon64.dll” into the RRP/userplugin folder
- copied the most recent CSI .dll into RRP/plugin folder
- copied the most recent CSI folder into the ReaperResourcepath (RRP)

started Reaper using desktop shortcut and double clicking project.
According to the startup notification of Reaper, the CSI Plugin is loaded.

Unfortunately, no CSI in the control surface mode pull down.
copied thereaper_csurf_eucon64.dll also into the plugin folder but no change.

copied the .dll from 14th in, CSI is available again and works fine.
Checked it for Sends/FX all works fine with the build from 14th. (Found out that if the FXMenu is opened via controller, FXzones work well; however,
if the FXmenu is closed by mouse, the controller loses contact.) Also checked native MCU mode which also works well.

One mor observation: if I set up CSI using the 14th build and save the project, the controller is recognized and in working order upon reload of the project.
If I then replace the build .dll from 14th with any build .dll released afterwards, upon project load the controller stays dead, the previously
working CSI pages are not shown and the CSI plugin is not llisted in the control surface mode pull down.

Apart from the possibility that I did not install the eucon plug correctly, I wonder if there are any hidden and/or more fundamental differences between
the build from 14th Dec 2019 and the more recent versions which make the plug invisible for reaper? I can only check the name, which is the same as of all builds

As mentioned in a previous post, the 26th of December .dll also worked until I replaced it with the 31st Dec 2019 and 1st of january 2020 versions.
since then this strange behaviour occurs.

Anything else I can do to help resolve this issue?

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Hmmm...1

Seems strange that the vst scan is picking it up.

That could mean that there is a copy of the csi dll in the vst search path, or the vst search path is pointing somewhere it doesn't need to (and probably shouldn't), or both.

Check all this out, you may be on to something here.

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Just to provide an external frame of reference: if I launch Reaper here, the splash screen appears, it says "scanning plugins" for a while (I believe this is a check for new VST2/VST3 plugins), then some text will flash really quickly, and in that I'll see something like "Loading Plugin: csuf_eucon_64.dll" and some others wizz by. I think that's Reaper loading "Reaper Plugin" .dll's, not necessarily treating them like VST2/VST3 plugins. Is that what you're seeing? If so, that might be normal (works here anyway).

But definitely go in and make sure that you don't have the "Reaper (x64)\Plugins" folder listed as a VST Plugin Folder in your Reaper preferences. I could definitely see that causing issues.

But, you've been using CSI for longer than I have, so I suspect it's not that and there's something else going on. It seems weird that at least 3 people (all on Windows? I am, but again, it works here) have suddenly reported issues with these newer releases, starting at the same build and persisting across a few builds.

Last question/thing to check: are you also installing the new CSI Eucon.dll from Geoff's signature? I have been. Even if you don't use Eucon, try installing the CSI eucon .dll anyway. Maybe a dependency somehow got built in. That's a total shot in the dark, but I'm a Eucon user, so it just sticks out as an area where maybe we could be doing things differently. And it's also the build where Geoff introduced Eucon that caused the issues so I wouldn't be surprised if there's some Eucon related dependency that accounts for why it works here and not on other systems. Again...total guess. But just trying to rule things out.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by RobinGShore

Still crashing.

Sorry to keep bugging you with this, there is yet another a new Eucon build up, could you check this one at your convenience ?

Thanks.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by WaveTrans

A

Not shure, if it´s correct but tried it like this:
- downloaded and put the “reaper_csurf_eucon64.dll” into the RRP/userplugin folder
- copied the most recent CSI .dll into RRP/plugin folder
- copied the most recent CSI folder into the ReaperResourcepath (RRP)

I didn't know putting the dlls in RRP/plugin folder would work at all

From the Readme:

Windows:
1) Run the Reaper Action: Show REAPER resource path in File Explorer.
2) Put the CSI folder in the Reaper resource path.
3) One of the following:
64 bit - Put reaper_csurf_integrator64.dll in Program Files\Reaper 4 (x64)\Plugins
32 bit - Put reaper_csurf_integrator32.dll in the equivalent for 32 bit.

[DTx]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Yes, known issue, will be tackled during beta.

Do you have the timeframe for the beta in mind?

[WaveTrans]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I didn't know putting the dlls in RRP/plugin folder would work at all

From the Readme:

Windows:
1) Run the Reaper Action: Show REAPER resource path in File Explorer.
2) Put the CSI folder in the Reaper resource path.
3) One of the following:
64 bit - Put reaper_csurf_integrator64.dll in Program Files\Reaper 4 (x64)\Plugins
32 bit - Put reaper_csurf_integrator32.dll in the equivalent for 32 bit.

Sorry, but I don´t understand what you mean.

CSI is installed according to the read me.

The csurf...dll is in the plugin folder and read upon start up.

CSI works but ONLY with the build of 14th Dec 2019, so it shouldn´t be an install issue
(Reaper is not installed on C:\, so the plugin folder appears in the ReaperResourcePath)

in my previous post, I refer to the install of the csuf_eucon_64.dll to check for dependencies as Funkybot suggested and for this I put the csuf_eucon_64.dll into the plugin folder as well.

didn´t change the fact, that CSI builds after the 14th are not recognized by Reaper .