Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[Freex]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Hello Geoff and everyone. I jumped in here a while back before an alpha was launched. I got familiar with the thread again, but it didn't help because I am honestly [more] lost and not sure if this is yet ready for someone like me with no coding skills.

I am using this surface: https://www.roland.com/global/products/v-studio_700/ with the MCU standard with Reaper and it works pretty darn well just as it is. All channel strips work 100% and about 90% of the other buttons can be programmed to actions. I don't really want to change any of that right now.

I'd really like to try this out because this control surface has a section with 12 rotaries and a display, similar to like a C4...but these just don't work as it is for anything, and it would be great to use them for plugs/etc. I have things downloaded/installed and can launch the app, but I almost totally lost after that.

Sorry for the ignorance. It's ok to tell me to come back later when it's ready.
Dave

Hey Dave, like you I'm not a coder either, but what I do know is what you'll want to do first is once you have the CSI up and running in Reaper, enable the "midi in". Then turn each knob on your v700 and jot down the data (if any) that's displayed.
This is then used to allow you to integrate that part of the surface into CSI and further more Reaper.

[poetnprophet]

Hey Freex, I have already mapped all of the buttons early in the year using MidiOx and using Geoff's instructions on formatting. And I have played with the CSI today. What confuses me on this part is that, when I do enable midi in, I see things like faders and button presses provide info, but the pan encoders do not. However, the pan encoders all work already. Same with some buttons, they don't show up in the display for midi in but the buttons work natively. And most importantly for me, the 12 encoders that I am hoping to map, they do not show up in this midi in view....but in MidiOx they do.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/33037/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip

I suppose no news regarding PressFBR here ?

(BTW: I fail to understand what PressReleaseR is supposed to do different from either of PressRelease / PressReleaseFB / PressReleaseFBR).

-Michael

[Freex]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Hey Freex, I have already mapped all of the buttons early in the year using MidiOx and using Geoff's instructions on formatting. And I have played with the CSI today. What confuses me on this part is that, when I do enable midi in, I see things like faders and button presses provide info, but the pan encoders do not. However, the pan encoders all work already. Same with some buttons, they don't show up in the display for midi in but the buttons work natively. And most importantly for me, the 12 encoders that I am hoping to map, they do not show up in this midi in view....but in MidiOx they do.

That seems super odd!?!?
Sounds like somethings wrong somewhere.
Alas, I think the reasons and resolution may need to come from Geoff.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Hey Freex, I have already mapped all of the buttons early in the year using MidiOx and using Geoff's instructions on formatting. And I have played with the CSI today. What confuses me on this part is that, when I do enable midi in, I see things like faders and button presses provide info, but the pan encoders do not. However, the pan encoders all work already. Same with some buttons, they don't show up in the display for midi in but the buttons work natively. And most importantly for me, the 12 encoders that I am hoping to map, they do not show up in this midi in view....but in MidiOx they do.

Ok, as others have said, that is weird.

Is it possible that there is more than one mid port involved.

[poetnprophet]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ok, as others have said, that is weird.

Is it possible that there is more than one mid port involved.

Hey Geoff. I'm not sure. I do still have the mcu standard loaded in osc/control...I have some custom mappings already I don't want to lose. I am not at the studio today but maybe tonight i can post screens. I do know that on the mcu and csi I have only the console selected as input/output.

Also, when I start CSI and configure the first "page", there are green, blue, etc pages already. Then in the surface side, there are green/etc things loaded there. When I add VS700 page to start, and configure a new surface and save it as vs700, I noticed that if I go back into csi the surface was never saved and nothing is there.

Lastly, when I have midi monitoring, all of the values shown come from "green Mix" and a few are "green control".

Sorry but this is so confusing.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by poetnprophet

Hey Geoff. I'm not sure. I do still have the mcu standard loaded in osc/control...I have some custom mappings already I don't want to lose. I am not at the studio today but maybe tonight i can post screens. I do know that on the mcu and csi I have only the console selected as input/output.

Also, when I start CSI and configure the first "page", there are green, blue, etc pages already. Then in the surface side, there are green/etc things loaded there. When I add VS700 page to start, and configure a new surface and save it as vs700, I noticed that if I go back into csi the surface was never saved and nothing is there.

Lastly, when I have midi monitoring, all of the values shown come from "green Mix" and a few are "green control".

Sorry but this is so confusing.

Ah, remove all the Pages you are not using, see if that helps.

I think you will also need to at least put the mcu standard on another set of midi ports, if you cannot remove it altogether.

[MixMonkey]

New build a bit of a bust I'm afraid.

Deleted the old CSI.ini and made a new project, went to pin the Master as usual by stepping the channels across. After 4 or 5 steps, everything slowed to a crawl and then hung.

Repeating the process (after a restart) with the MIDI out monitor showed an endless stream of SysEx being sent out.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

New build a bit of a bust I'm afraid.

Deleted the old CSI.ini and made a new project, went to pin the Master as usual by stepping the channels across. After 4 or 5 steps, everything slowed to a crawl and then hung.

Repeating the process (after a restart) with the MIDI out monitor showed an endless stream of SysEx being sent out.

Well, I hope you made the same mistake I made

Check your axt folders, I'll bet you will find 2 .axt files in the same folder with different definitions, it's the kiss of death.

Let me know, methinks we need a redesign of the axt/fxt file structure.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Well, I hope you made the same mistake I made

Check your axt folders, I'll bet you will find 2 .axt files in the same folder with different definitions, it's the kiss of death.

Let me know, methinks we need a redesign of the axt/fxt file structure.

Had a look, can't see anything awry

Do I need to use anything new from the CSI folder (MCUSend notwithstanding)?

If I just change the .dylib and leave everything else the same, the behaviour flips from working normally to broken. The first thing I notice is that the master is no longer pinned (appearing far left).

The working .dylib is the one released immediately before the new one.

I tried a new project and also using the entire contents of the CSI folder from the download, modified to my setup- same result.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Had a look, can't see anything awry

Do I need to use anything new from the CSI folder (MCUSend notwithstanding)?

If I just change the .dylib and leave everything else the same, the behaviour flips from working normally to broken. The first thing I notice is that the master is no longer pinned (appearing far left).

The working .dylib is the one released immediately before the new one.

I tried a new project and also using the entire contents of the CSI folder from the download, modified to my setup- same result.

Ahh, got it, will be fixed in next build.

Also going to take the opportunity to change surfaces to use .axt files, instead of directories -- solves the problem in which I caught myself

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/33037/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip


You MUST use the new CSI.ini as well as the new folder structure -- The .axt files now mimic the .rst files, folder structure wise.

Hopefully clobbered that nasty SysEx flood

First cut at Sends Page -- see CSI.ini for config examples.

Make sure to set your Sends Page MCU to use MCUSends.axt file -- See MCU for example.

Shift+ChannelLeft = Up
Shift+BankLeft = Down

Volume, Pan, Mute, Send Track name display, Touch shows Send Level.

[_Stevie_]

Hm, I just can't get the CMC-CH working in Windows. CSI does not receive any input from the device. In OSX my other CMC devices work flawlessly. Could it be that there is some device name issue in Windows?



CMC-CH.rst:

ChannelLeft 			Press 90 30 7f
ChannelRight			Press 90 31 7f
Pan 	   				EncoderFB 90 2a 7f  90 2a 00
Freeze					PressFB 90 4c 7f  90 4c 00
Folder					Press 90 47 7f  90 47 00
InsertsBypass			PressFB 90 2b 7f  90 2b 00
Read					PressFB 90 4a 7f  90 4a 00
EditChannelSetting		PressFB 90 33 7f  90 33 00
EQBypass				PressFB 90 28 7f  90 28 00
Write 					PressFB 90 4b 7f  90 4b 00
EditInstrument			PressFB 90 2d 7f  90 2d 00
SendsBypass				PressFB 90 29 7f  90 29 00
Shift					PressRelease 90 46 7f  90 46 00
Mute					PressFB 90 10 7f  90 10 00
Solo					PressFB 90 08 7f  90 08 00
Monitor					PressFB 90 78 7f  90 78 00
RecordEnable			PressFB 90 00 7f  90 00 00


Channel
VUMeter      MCUVUMeter
Fader        Fader14BitFB -60.0 12.0 e0 7f 7f e0 00 00
ChannelEnd

CMC-CH.axt:

ChannelLeft TrackBank -1
ChannelRight TrackBank 1

F8 UnpinSelectedTracks
Read TrackAutoMode 1
Write TrackAutoMode 3
Trim TrackAutoMode 0
Touch TrackAutoMode 2
Latch TrackAutoMode 4
Group TrackAutoMode 5


Fader TrackVolume
FaderTouch TrackTouch
Rotary TrackCycle RotaryPush "TrackPan 0" "TrackPanWidth 1"

RecordEnable TrackRecordArm
Mute TrackMute
Solo TrackSolo

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

Hm, I just can't get the CMC-CH working in Windows. CSI does not receive any input from the device. In OSX my other CMC devices work flawlessly. Could it be that there is some device name issue in Windows?



CMC-CH.rst:

ChannelLeft 			Press 90 30 7f
ChannelRight			Press 90 31 7f
Pan 	   				EncoderFB 90 2a 7f  90 2a 00
Freeze					PressFB 90 4c 7f  90 4c 00
Folder					Press 90 47 7f  90 47 00
InsertsBypass			PressFB 90 2b 7f  90 2b 00
Read					PressFB 90 4a 7f  90 4a 00
EditChannelSetting		PressFB 90 33 7f  90 33 00
EQBypass				PressFB 90 28 7f  90 28 00
Write 					PressFB 90 4b 7f  90 4b 00
EditInstrument			PressFB 90 2d 7f  90 2d 00
SendsBypass				PressFB 90 29 7f  90 29 00
Shift					PressRelease 90 46 7f  90 46 00
Mute					PressFB 90 10 7f  90 10 00
Solo					PressFB 90 08 7f  90 08 00
Monitor					PressFB 90 78 7f  90 78 00
RecordEnable			PressFB 90 00 7f  90 00 00


Channel
VUMeter      MCUVUMeter
Fader        Fader14BitFB -60.0 12.0 e0 7f 7f e0 00 00
ChannelEnd

CMC-CH.axt:

ChannelLeft TrackBank -1
ChannelRight TrackBank 1

F8 UnpinSelectedTracks
Read TrackAutoMode 1
Write TrackAutoMode 3
Trim TrackAutoMode 0
Touch TrackAutoMode 2
Latch TrackAutoMode 4
Group TrackAutoMode 5


Fader TrackVolume
FaderTouch TrackTouch
Rotary TrackCycle RotaryPush "TrackPan 0" "TrackPanWidth 1"

RecordEnable TrackRecordArm
Mute TrackMute
Solo TrackSolo

If these are the exact same .rst and .axt files assign OSX, that shouldn't be the problem.

The OSC: Steinberg CMC-CH-1 entry on the Reaper preferences looks suspicious, what happens if you delete that ?

[_Stevie_]

Still the same, but I noticed something. It works, when I start Reaper, UNTIL, I fire up the CSI configuration dialog. Let me quickly make a GIF...

[nofish]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

Still the same, but I noticed something. It works, when I start Reaper, UNTIL, I fire up the CSI configuration dialog. Let me quickly make a GIF...

Geoff may chime in but I think that's an older (and still present) Windows only bug.

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=820

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

Still the same, but I noticed something. It works, when I start Reaper, UNTIL, I fire up the CSI configuration dialog.

As no fish said, it seems to be a Windows only issue, works fine here on Win 10, what version of Windows are you running ? 32 or 64 bit ?

[_Stevie_]

Windows 8.1 x64

[nofish]

FWIW, I've also experienced this issue with the last version I tested, maybe 3 versions ago or so.
Also Win 8.1 x64 here.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/33037/CSI%20pre%20alpha.zip


You MUST use the new CSI.ini as well as the new folder structure -- The .axt files now mimic the .rst files, folder structure wise.

Hopefully clobbered that nasty SysEx flood

First cut at Sends Page -- see CSI.ini for config examples.

Make sure to set your Sends Page MCU to use MCUSends.axt file -- See MCU for example.

Shift+ChannelLeft = Up
Shift+BankLeft = Down

Volume, Pan, Mute, Send Track name display, Touch shows Send Level.

New build is sweeeeeeeet here

Got rid of the old file structure and added MCUSend.axt and MCUXTSend.axt, mapped Up and Down to the Up/Down nav buttons (I have TrackBank assigned to the Left/Right nav buttons) Added Solo TrackSolo to the MCUSend.axt and MCUXTSend.axt to allow channel solo whilst on the Send Page.

157 track project, 4-5 sends per channel (threw in a couple of 1 and 2 send channels to check the end stop) Spent 10 mins going left,right ,up and down the sends, across the channels in banks of 24 (got another MCUXT), as well as flipping back and forth between the Send Page and the Channel Page. Channels with less than 5 sends stop at the last send on that channel as planned. Send Pan and Mute working AOK.

All good, no crashes and displays working fine.

Couple of minor points. The banking doesn't synchronise between the Channel Page and the Send Page. That is to say, if I switch to the Send page and bank across, then return to the Channel page, the Channel page will be where I left it- it won't have banked with the Send page. This might be desirable in some cases but it would be good to be able to link them.

Also, the rotary push on the 1st channel of my MCU no longer switches between Pan and Width. If I select the channel, pushing the rotary clears the selection. All other rotaries (MCU+XTs) work fine.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by _Stevie_

Windows 8.1 x64

Have you tried running Reaper as Administrator ?

Note that this is different under certain circumstances than simply using the Administrator account.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

New build is sweeeeeeeet here

Got rid of the old file structure and added MCUSend.axt and MCUXTSend.axt, mapped Up and Down to the Up/Down nav buttons (I have TrackBank assigned to the Left/Right nav buttons) Added Solo TrackSolo to the MCUSend.axt and MCUXTSend.axt to allow channel solo whilst on the Send Page.

157 track project, 4-5 sends per channel (threw in a couple of 1 and 2 send channels to check the end stop) Spent 10 mins going left,right ,up and down the sends, across the channels in banks of 24 (got another MCUXT), as well as flipping back and forth between the Send Page and the Channel Page. Channels with less than 5 sends stop at the last send on that channel as planned. Send Pan and Mute working AOK.

All good, no crashes and displays working fine.

Couple of minor points. The banking doesn't synchronise between the Channel Page and the Send Page. That is to say, if I switch to the Send page and bank across, then return to the Channel page, the Channel page will be where I left it- it won't have banked with the Send page. This might be desirable in some cases but it would be good to be able to link them.

Great, glad we've made some headway.

To Synch banking, just go into Edit Page and check Synch Pages on the pages you'd like to lock together.

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Also, the rotary push on the 1st channel of my MCU no longer switches between Pan and Width. If I select the channel, pushing the rotary clears the selection. All other rotaries (MCU+XTs) work fine.

Sounds like a mapping issue.

The one other thing I'd add is it's a good idea to remove any "clutter" in your files, if something is not used -- comment it out by starting the line with /

That way it won't get read by Reaper but you won't lose it either, just remove the / to get it back.

[_Stevie_]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Have you tried running Reaper as Administrator ?

Note that this is different under certain circumstances than simply using the Administrator account.

Good point, will check that and report back!
It seems inevitable to jump on Windows 10 :P

[andyp24]

Hi Geoff and everyone

I followed this tbread closely a while ago and donated to the project, but in the last few months have had no time to keep track of it or install and test anything.

I have a job coming up in the next few months where I'll definitely need to get my Behringer X32 compact running as a fader control surface (just bankable faders will be enough).

Is this project the best way to do that - simply - with X32 and Reaper on MacOS? Would it in its current stage be reliable for writing fader automation?

Or is there an easier way (for Mac) to get this basic functionality working, and I come back to CSI later?

Thanks
Andy

[_Stevie_]

No luck unfortunately. still behaves the same. Well, I might just install Windows 10 in the next few days, since it has been on my list anyway.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by andyp24

Is this project the best way to do that - simply - with X32 and Reaper on MacOS? Would it in its current stage be reliable for writing fader automation?

I don't know if the X32 can do MC protocol.
If yes I suppose there is a chance to get it working with CSI in a short time.

If no, you might be in a similar situation as I am with my Behringer XTouch Compact (see above), as very understandably, the CSI first aim is to get MC compatible devices integrated, and other devices (all featuring their own specialties - such as the LEDs in the buttons of the Compact - see above) have lower priority.

This said, it might be a good idea to add an XTouch One to the X32 (I am considering adding an XTouch One to the Compact), as same provides certain features that seem to be important for remote-controlling Reaper. I suppose that getting the One work with CSI should be rather easy.

-Michael

[andyp24]

I believe the X32 can emulate either HUI or Mackie Control, if that helps.

Andy

[Freex]

Not tried the latest build yet, but was having trouble with the settings window size. Couldn't see the (yes/no save/cancel) at the bottom,(not sure what it is lol.
I'll try the new build later.

Windows 7

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by andyp24

Hi Geoff and everyone

I followed this tbread closely a while ago and donated to the project, but in the last few months have had no time to keep track of it or install and test anything.

I have a job coming up in the next few months where I'll definitely need to get my Behringer X32 compact running as a fader control surface (just bankable faders will be enough).

Is this project the best way to do that - simply - with X32 and Reaper on MacOS? Would it in its current stage be reliable for writing fader automation?

Or is there an easier way (for Mac) to get this basic functionality working, and I come back to CSI later?

Thanks
Andy

Had a quick look at the X32 a while back, seem to recall it was a bit weak using the Mackie protocol.

I'm thinkin' OSC is probably the way to go here.

Just playing around with Scrub/Zoom, etc. right now.

Once that is operational, planning to start taking a serious look at OSC integration.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Freex

Not tried the latest build yet, but was having trouble with the settings window size. Couldn't see the (yes/no save/cancel) at the bottom,(not sure what it is lol.
I'll try the new build later.

Windows 7

Older versions of Reaper might be the cause, what Reaper version are you running ?

[andyp24]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Had a quick look at the X32 a while back, seem to recall it was a bit weak using the Mackie protocol.

I'm thinkin' OSC is probably the way to go here.

Just playing around with Scrub/Zoom, etc. right now.

Once that is operational, planning to start taking a serious look at OSC integration.

Ok thanks Geoff. I guess I'll try and find another way for now to give me the fader banks I need soon and come back to CSI later. I appreciate your answer and all your efforts on this.

Andy

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by andyp24

Ok thanks Geoff. I guess I'll try and find another way for now to give me the fader banks I need soon and come back to CSI later. I appreciate your answer and all your efforts on this.

Andy

Hold on a sec

You did say "I have a job coming up in the next few months where I'll definitely need to get my Behringer X32 compact running as a fader control surface".

I'm hoping integrating OSC will take a lot less than a few months.

Perhaps even faster if we have a good tester with a good OSC device, hint hint

That said, of course feel free to search for other solutions.

[airon]

Just gave this a quick run.


Documentation should include information on the current state of the configuration dialogue that you reach via the Reaper Prefs/Control/, which appears not to work all that much for changing things. All changes appear to be made in the CSI.ini and the relevant config files.


It took me about 30 minutes to get things going for both the MCU as a main fader box and the MCU as a send control.


I found the "select next page" from the page list defined in the CSI.ini by skimming across the MCU.axt file. This has to be in the documentation as an example. There's no action, there's just a definition in the AXT file.


F1 NextPage


A list of commands, documented is helpful too. Perhaps one of us knows of a good tool to keep documentation like that in a nice editable state where useful PDF files can be produced with the click of a button. For now, the examples are a nice read, but basic procedures for someone who has never seen this stuff, are a requirement to get more testing and usability testing. I almost gave up(for today).





The MCU faders, using MCU.axt and MCU.rst, do not play back automation, even though I see stuff being thrown at it in the midi monitor. Same for send levels. The faders jump back to the previous value after a few seconds. Not usable. Did I miss something ?


The send page has the same problem. The faders just jump back to values which I presume are defined by the static Read/Trim volume level, and not the current volume envelope.


I sure hope I missed something.


I can contribute on the documentation level. I have some experience in that regard, having written the first manual for Audacity a long damn time ago, as well as that for the Monkey's Audio application.

[andyp24]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Hold on a sec

You did say "I have a job coming up in the next few months where I'll definitely need to get my Behringer X32 compact running as a fader control surface".

I'm hoping integrating OSC will take a lot less than a few months.

Perhaps even faster if we have a good tester with a good OSC device, hint hint

That said, of course feel free to search for other solutions.

Haha yes I did say that, but I imagined it could well be next year before OSC work gets done - I have no idea how long these things take!

I'll keep across the thread then and as soon as there's something to test with the X32 and OSC I'll do what I can. Bear in mind you may have to explain how to set it up and test as if talking to a small child 😁

[Freex]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Older versions of Reaper might be the cause, what Reaper version are you running ?

It was Reaper 5.94 and the last version of CSI

5.941 and the latest CSI and everything is back as it should be.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Freex

It was Reaper 5.94 and the last version of CSI

5.941 and the latest CSI and everything is back as it should be.

Cool, glad to hear that

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by airon

Just gave this a quick run.


Documentation should include information on the current state of the configuration dialogue that you reach via the Reaper Prefs/Control/, which appears not to work all that much for changing things. All changes appear to be made in the CSI.ini and the relevant config files.


It took me about 30 minutes to get things going for both the MCU as a main fader box and the MCU as a send control.


I found the "select next page" from the page list defined in the CSI.ini by skimming across the MCU.axt file. This has to be in the documentation as an example. There's no action, there's just a definition in the AXT file.


F1 NextPage


A list of commands, documented is helpful too. Perhaps one of us knows of a good tool to keep documentation like that in a nice editable state where useful PDF files can be produced with the click of a button. For now, the examples are a nice read, but basic procedures for someone who has never seen this stuff, are a requirement to get more testing and usability testing. I almost gave up(for today).





The MCU faders, using MCU.axt and MCU.rst, do not play back automation, even though I see stuff being thrown at it in the midi monitor. Same for send levels. The faders jump back to the previous value after a few seconds. Not usable. Did I miss something ?


The send page has the same problem. The faders just jump back to values which I presume are defined by the static Read/Trim volume level, and not the current volume envelope.


I sure hope I missed something.

Thanks for having a look !

Your points are well taken, the documentation is very thin right now.

Yes, automation is quite broken right now.

The software is still at a pre alpha stage, but I would say close to alpha.

Originally Posted by airon

I can contribute on the documentation level. I have some experience in that regard, having written the first manual for Audacity a long damn time ago, as well as that for the Monkey's Audio application.

Thanks for the kind offer !

When can you start ?

[airon]

Link me the source to that PDF. I've got a Dropbox account as well if that helps. I'd likely be using Libreoffice, so compatibility shouldn't be an issue.

[mschnell]

Once something will run with my Xtouch Compact (i.e. non-MC protocol) I'll be happy to provide the appropriate parts of the documentation.

-Michael

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by airon

Link me the source to that PDF. I've got a Dropbox account as well if that helps. I'd likely be using Libreoffice, so compatibility shouldn't be an issue.

Sent you a PM.