Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[Puck]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

I downloaded from the link in your signature today. 🤷

Hey Jon,

There is a CSI EXP version in the stash. Just search CSI EXP

That's where Geoff tries out all the new features and there have been a ton added. Especially if you own an X-touch universal (which congrats btw!)

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

I downloaded from the link in your signature today. ��

Ah, that's the official release version, most of us here work with what's officially called the experimental version, but it tends to be very stable, much like Reaper pre releases, and can be found here: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

[edit] Haha Puck beat me to it while I was typing

Also, congrats on the X-Touch, that's what I'm running here

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Yes, there is a trick built into SetAllDisplaysColor.

The stock X-Touch behaviour is to show the Track colors.

SetAllDisplaysColor sends the color just like you did with MIDI-OX and tells CSI not to show Track colors.

So if I don't use SetAllDisplaysColor in my zone then SendMIDIMessage should work?

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by MT4U

So if I don't use SetAllDisplaysColor in my zone then SendMIDIMessage should work?

Too late here. I just understood the track color part. So in other words no matter if I send the SysEx message with the zone colors, CSI will always show the track colors instead of the ones sent through MIDI... now the question is. Is there any CSI Action we can call to make CSI stop setting the track colors?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MT4U

So if I don't use SetAllDisplaysColor in my zone then SendMIDIMessage should work?

No, the default behaviour is to show track colors, you have to explicitly tell CSI to stop doing that, SetAllDisplaysColor accomplishes that.

SendMidi is actually changing the colors, but the next pass (about 33 milliseconds apart) sets them right back to the Track colors, the displays might not even have time to react.

What are you trying to do that can't be done with SetAllDisplaysColor?

[edit] Haha crosspostitis tonight

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

No, the default behaviour is to show track colors, you have to explicitly tell CSI to stop doing that, SetAllDisplaysColor accomplishes that.

SendMidi is actually changing the colors, but the next pass (about 33 milliseconds apart) sets them right back to the Track colors, the displays might not even have time to react.

What are you trying to do that can't be done with SetAllDisplaysColor?

[edit] Haha crosspostitis tonight

Trying to set different colors for each display on the X-Touch depending on the Fx Param mapped .

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MT4U

Trying to set different colors for each display on the X-Touch depending on the Fx Param mapped .

Cool, can probably modify SetAllDisplaysColor to take either a single color or 8, nothing in between, will that work ?

    SetAllDisplaysColor "Red"
    SetAllDisplaysColor "Red Cyan Magenta Blue Yellow Green Cyan Red"

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Cool, can probably modify SetAllDisplaysColor to take either a single color or 8, nothing in between, will that work ?

    SetAllDisplaysColor "Red"
    SetAllDisplaysColor "Red Cyan Magenta Blue Yellow Green Cyan Red"

Most definitely!

[EpicSounds]

Originally Posted by Puck

Hey Jon,

There is a CSI EXP version in the stash. Just search CSI EXP

That's where Geoff tries out all the new features and there have been a ton added. Especially if you own an X-touch universal (which congrats btw!)

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ah, that's the official release version, most of us here work with what's officially called the experimental version, but it tends to be very stable, much like Reaper pre releases, and can be found here: https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

[edit] Haha Puck beat me to it while I was typing

Also, congrats on the X-Touch, that's what I'm running here

ok I'll try it. Is there another Surface and Zone file somewhere with everything connected?

[Geoff Waddington]

New builds are up.

CSI Support Files.zip
CSI Exp.zip
CSI v2_0.zip

Renamed SetAllDisplaysColor to SetXTouchDisplayColors.

Added ability to set X-Touch Channel colors separately.

You can set all Channels to one color or all 8 separately, nothing in between:

    SetXTouchDisplayColors "Red"
    SetXTouchDisplayColors "Red Cyan Magenta Blue Yellow Green Cyan Red"

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by EpicSounds

ok I'll try it. Is there another Surface and Zone file somewhere with everything connected?

Thanks, see previous post, and thanks for reminding me to keep the CSI v2_0.zip file up to date.

I wouldn't say everything is connected, but I would say always look at each Zone file, only the Buttons Zone is huge, the rest are quite reasonable, size/complexity wise.

In particular the various Send/Receive/FXMenu flavours are worth a look.

When you hit RotaryPush on an FX Menu Channel you drill down to that particular FX, that's what GoFXSlot does, you were wondering about that in the video.

Finally, it's a really good idea to try this out with projects with some Tracks, FX, Sends, etc., it's a lot easier to see what's going on.

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New builds are up.

CSI Support Files.zip
CSI Exp.zip
CSI v2_0.zip

Renamed SetAllDisplaysColor to SetXTouchDisplayColors.

Added ability to set X-Touch Channel colors separately.

You can set all Channels to one color or all 8 separately, nothing in between:

    SetXTouchDisplayColors "Red"
    SetXTouchDisplayColors "Red Cyan Magenta Blue Yellow Green Cyan Red"

Very much Thank you, Master Waddington!

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New builds are up.

CSI Support Files.zip
CSI Exp.zip
CSI v2_0.zip

Renamed SetAllDisplaysColor to SetXTouchDisplayColors.

Added ability to set X-Touch Channel colors separately.

You can set all Channels to one color or all 8 separately, nothing in between:

    SetXTouchDisplayColors "Red"
    SetXTouchDisplayColors "Red Cyan Magenta Blue Yellow Green Cyan Red"

Was RestoreAllDisplaysColor renamed to RestoreXTouchDisplayColors?

Also, does that mean the recent changes were merged into the main CSI v2 set of files? Do we need to update the remaining support files? Let me know, I've got some vacation starting tomorrow and can help!

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Was RestoreAllDisplaysColor renamed to RestoreXTouchDisplayColors?

Oops, will do it now.

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Also, does that mean the recent changes were merged into the main CSI v2 set of files? Do we need to update the remaining support files? Let me know, I've got some vacation starting tomorrow and can help!

Yes, as soon as I fix the above, I'll update the support files.

[Geoff Waddington]

New builds are up.

CSI Support Files.zip
CSI Exp.zip
CSI v2_0.zip

Renamed SetAllDisplaysColor to SetXTouchDisplayColors.

Renamed RestoreAllDisplaysColor to RestoreXTouchDisplayColors.

Added ability to set X-Touch Channel colors separately.

You can set all Channels to one color or all 8 separately, nothing in between:

    SetXTouchDisplayColors "Red"
    SetXTouchDisplayColors "Red Cyan Magenta Blue Yellow Green Cyan Red"

[Funkybot]

Hi Geoff, small "maybe a bug, maybe something changed" report...

Zone "Track"
    Shift+RecordArm|    CycleTrackAutoMode DisplayLower|   
ZoneEnd

or

Zone "SelectedTrack"
    Shift+RecordArm1    CycleTrackAutoMode DisplayLower1   
ZoneEnd

That used to work to temporarily override the display to show the automation mode for about 2 seconds. I don't think that's working in CSI 2.0. Not sure if that was intentional.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Hi Geoff, small "maybe a bug, maybe something changed" report...

Zone "Track"
    Shift+RecordArm|    CycleTrackAutoMode DisplayLower|   
ZoneEnd

or

Zone "SelectedTrack"
    Shift+RecordArm1    CycleTrackAutoMode DisplayLower1   
ZoneEnd

That used to work to temporarily override the display to show the automation mode for about 2 seconds. I don't think that's working in CSI 2.0. Not sure if that was intentional.

Now you would use:

    Shift+DisplayLower| TrackAutoModeDisplay

for the display part, looks like there is a bug in CycleTrackAutoMode, investigating...

[SoundGuyChris]

Hey folks, I just gave CSI a second look from the stream yesterday and after following along with EpicSounds, I'm feeling fairly comfortable programming actions into Zones, surprisingly! My mind has definitely been changed on it, for the most part.

There's one feature I'm really missing though, which is the option to select and spill folders like you can in Klinke, without it faffing about with track visibility in the project. Is this doable? I really love that workflow - drill into folders, make changes, and float back upwards using the global view button.

Is there a decent facsimile for that? I know that there's the VCA workflow in CSI but as someone who doesn't use VCA grouping often (I use folders for easy asset printing, as well as in conjunction with LKC's Navigator tool), I'd prefer to work with folders beyond just the Top Level only.

Is something like that in the works/doable? Or does it work against the CSIs design philosophy in some way?

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by SoundGuyChris

Hey folks, I just gave CSI a second look from the stream yesterday and after following along with EpicSounds, I'm feeling fairly comfortable programming actions into Zones, surprisingly! My mind has definitely been changed on it, for the most part.

There's one feature I'm really missing though, which is the option to select and spill folders like you can in Klinke, without it faffing about with track visibility in the project. Is this doable? I really love that workflow - drill into folders, make changes, and float back upwards using the global view button.

Is there a decent facsimile for that? I know that there's the VCA workflow in CSI but as someone who doesn't use VCA grouping often (I use folders for easy asset printing, as well as in conjunction with LKC's Navigator tool), I'd prefer to work with folders beyond just the Top Level only.

Is something like that in the works/doable? Or does it work against the CSIs design philosophy in some way?

Have you given this a shot to see how it works for you?

https://github.com/GeoffAWaddington/...i/wiki/Folders

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by SoundGuyChris

There's one feature I'm really missing though, which is the option to select and spill folders like you can in Klinke, without it faffing about with track visibility in the project.

At present it just uses Reaper Actions which do indeed mess with MCP visibility.

Been on the list to do a proper implementation of this for a while, I should do that soon, stay tuned...

[edit] Actually better than stay tuned, please jump in.

Describe your Cadillac solution and we'll all discuss it and get a solution that works for you and everybody else too, that's how it works here in CSI land.

[Jeth]

trying to find a way to use my cakewalk vs-100 as well as my MPC One... i have them both disabled but only the vs-100 works. funny thing is the vs-100 in on channel 1 and the mpc is on channel 0. I believe they are both MCU.

the mpc has separate midi ports: internal midi which is program in the hidden icons on windows, DAW control (the one i disabled), one called port 1 and one called public.

i keep disabling and changing channels my question is it possible that they simply cant be used together?

Thanks, I realize this is a pretty low-rent set-up

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up.

CSI Exp.zip

Possible fix for Automation bugs noted a few posts back.

Please check this out as soon as you can, it was quite a mess, so, if fixed, I'd like to promote it to version 2.0 ASAP.

Usage:

    Shift+RecordArm|    CycleTrackAutoMode 
    Shift+DisplayLower| TrackAutoModeDisplay

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Jeth

trying to find a way to use my cakewalk vs-100 as well as my MPC One... i have them both disabled but only the vs-100 works. funny thing is the vs-100 in on channel 1 and the mpc is on channel 0. I believe they are both MCU.

the mpc has separate midi ports: internal midi which is program in the hidden icons on windows, DAW control (the one i disabled), one called port 1 and one called public.

i keep disabling and changing channels my question is it possible that they simply cant be used together?

Thanks, I realize this is a pretty low-rent set-up

As long as you can get the controller ports disabled in the Reaper MIDI devices setup, you can use the disabled ports in CSI.

Had a quick look at the two units, and you're probably going to have to roll your own .mst files, it's not that hard, and everyone here is super helpful.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

New build is up.

CSI Exp.zip

Possible fix for Automation bugs noted a few posts back.

Please check this out as soon as you can, it was quite a mess, so, if fixed, I'd like to promote it to version 2.0 ASAP.

Usage:

    Shift+RecordArm|    CycleTrackAutoMode 
    Shift+DisplayLower| TrackAutoModeDisplay

Working here. Tested in both a SelectedTrack zone and a Track zone.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

New XTouch Compact .mst. Both layers, channel buttons renamed to A,B,C and D from top to bottom respectively. Rotaries use new Encoder7Bit definition.

Rechecking the XTouch Compact Editor I found that Encoder7Bit is not even necessary. The XTouch Rotaries can be set to three different "Relative" Modes that in fact make them act as encoders.

-Michael

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Rechecking the XTouch Compact Editor I found that Encoder7Bit is not even necessary. The XTouch Rotaries can be set to three different "Relative" Modes that in fact make them act as encoders.

-Michael

Were you working on an .mst for that which could get included in the Support Files? If so, might want to include notes on how to set the device up for that. The lack of X-Touch Compact files came up in Jon's livestream yesterday and made me think of the lack of an .mst for it.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Working here. Tested in both a SelectedTrack zone and a Track zone.

Cool, thanks for testing, it looked good here too, I'll promote it to version 2.0

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by mschnell

Rechecking the XTouch Compact Editor I found that Encoder7Bit is not even necessary. The XTouch Rotaries can be set to three different "Relative" Modes that in fact make them act as encoders.

-Michael

Perhaps you could try the three different modes and make a note of the messages each send out when the control is turned CW and CCW.

[SoundGuyChris]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

At present it just uses Reaper Actions which do indeed mess with MCP visibility.

Been on the list to do a proper implementation of this for a while, I should do that soon, stay tuned...

[edit] Actually better than stay tuned, please jump in.

Describe your Cadillac solution and we'll all discuss it and get a solution that works for you and everybody else too, that's how it works here in CSI land.

Appreciate the welcome to this little subcommunity community here If I can, I certainly will try!

My Cadillac solution is effectively as I mentioned. As a game audio designer, I strongly prefer Folders over VCA both for organizational purposes and because I honestly just feel like Reaper's implementation of VCA is a bit cumbersome (note to request an FR later...if the Track Grouping Parameters dialogue could be docked that'd be a lot less of a barrier to using VCAs...). I'm using an XTouch so bear that in mind with these observations / request list and maybe we can all filter down to what's truly important...

I think a proper implementation would require:

- The ability to display if a specific track is a folder track. Klinke does this by lighting up a few segments on the encoder display, but either text, a symbol in the display, or a blinking button could work too. Selecting and going into a folder could be done either by long-pressing/double-pressing a channel select button, or maybe a dedicated button that allows you to dive into the selected folder?

- Optionally, one should be able to anchor the folder's head track to channel strip 1, or putting the folder's fader on the master fader of the XTouch would be ideal for me, but maybe not as important to others. The idea is that you can scroll within the folder on the other faders but the parent track is always reachable.

* The tracks and folders nested within the selected folder should be spilled over, much in the same way that VCA spill works currently. This should not affect MPC/TCP visibility unless desired, in my opinion. I prefer not to have my screen reacting TOO much or I lose context and go back to KB+M editing.

- An indicator of some sort to show that your controller is not at the top level, and a way to back out from within the hierarchy, one step at a time. Again, Klinke does this by illuminating the Global View button, which is a perfectly adequate solution. By pressing it, you move one level up in the hierarchy. Backing out of the folder hierarchy should not affect track selection, in my opinion.

(Incidentally, is there a way to manage the length of time before a "long" press is registered?)

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by SoundGuyChris

Appreciate the welcome to this little subcommunity community here If I can, I certainly will try!

Thanks for contributing !

Originally Posted by SoundGuyChris

My Cadillac solution is effectively as I mentioned. As a game audio designer, I strongly prefer Folders over VCA both for organizational purposes and because I honestly just feel like Reaper's implementation of VCA is a bit cumbersome (note to request an FR later...if the Track Grouping Parameters dialogue could be docked that'd be a lot less of a barrier to using VCAs...). I'm using an XTouch so bear that in mind with these observations / request list and maybe we can all filter down to what's truly important...

I think a proper implementation would require:

- The ability to display if a specific track is a folder track. Klinke does this by lighting up a few segments on the encoder display, but either text, a symbol in the display, or a blinking button could work too. Selecting and going into a folder could be done either by long-pressing/double-pressing a channel select button, or maybe a dedicated button that allows you to dive into the selected folder?

- Optionally, one should be able to anchor the folder's head track to channel strip 1, or putting the folder's fader on the master fader of the XTouch would be ideal for me, but maybe not as important to others. The idea is that you can scroll within the folder on the other faders but the parent track is always reachable.

* The tracks and folders nested within the selected folder should be spilled over, much in the same way that VCA spill works currently. This should not affect MPC/TCP visibility unless desired, in my opinion. I prefer not to have my screen reacting TOO much or I lose context and go back to KB+M editing.

- An indicator of some sort to show that your controller is not at the top level, and a way to back out from within the hierarchy, one step at a time. Again, Klinke does this by illuminating the Global View button, which is a perfectly adequate solution. By pressing it, you move one level up in the hierarchy. Backing out of the folder hierarchy should not affect track selection, in my opinion.

Agree none of this should affect TCP/MCP visibility.

This sounds very similar to the way CSI does VCAs.

When you press select on a VCA Track it becomes leftmost, and the children spill to the right.

Press select on the leftmost Track to back out.

I forget if we did more than one level of VCAs, but the procedure would repeat, with the leftmost becoming the new VCA leader/folder parent.

Press leftmost to back out, and press leftmost once more to get to the top.

Maybe we could make use of the X-Touch Channel coloring to indicate folder track mode and current depth.

In the stock setup supplied support files, there are already colors for VCA and folder modes, we could extend those.

Does this sound like the general direction you would prefer to see us take ?

Originally Posted by SoundGuyChris

(Incidentally, is there a way to manage the length of time before a "long" press is registered?)

At the moment it is hardwired to 1 second, but the mechanism for customization is in place, ready to be used.

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Were you working on an .mst for that which could get included in the Support Files? If so, might want to include notes on how to set the device up for that. The lack of X-Touch Compact files came up in Jon's livestream yesterday and made me think of the lack of an .mst for it.

Sorry. I am not decently working on CSI-ing my Compact, still just researching.

And while it's great that CSI now features Encoder7Bit to support standard CC based Rotaries as Encoders, it might be a better way to make Compact Rotaries be encoders, as same can be configured with the "Editor" setup software for the XTouch.

-Michael

[mschnell]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Perhaps you could try the three different modes and make a note of the messages each send out when the control is turned CW and CCW.

The modes are just using different "centers":

Mode 1: up = 127, down = 0 (AFAIR)
Mode 2: up = 65, down = 64
Mode 3: (don't remember).
Funny; when turning fast, they use higher/lower values (seems to make sense with mode 2).

-Michael

[AtmanActive]

Originally Posted by mschnell

The modes are just using different "centers":

Mode 1: up = 127, down = 0 (AFAIR)
Mode 2: up = 65, down = 64
Mode 3: (don't remember).
Funny; when turning fast, they use higher/lower values (seems to make sense with mode 2).

-Michael

From ReaLearn:

Encoder (relative type x): A control element that emits relative values, usually an endless rotary encoder. The x specifies how the relative values are sent. This 1:1 corresponds to the relative modes in REAPER’s built-in MIDI learn:

Type 1:

127 = decrement; 0 = none; 1 = increment

127 > value > 63 results in higher decrements (64 possible decrement amounts)

1 < value <= 63 results in higher increments (63 possible increment amounts)

Type 2:

63 = decrement; 64 = none; 65 = increment

63 > value >= 0 results in higher decrements (64 possible decrement amounts)

65 < value <= 127 results in higher increments (63 possible increment amounts)

Type 3:

65 = decrement; 0 = none; 1 = increment

65 < value <= 127 results in higher decrements (63 possible decrement amounts)

1 < value <= 64 results in higher increments (64 possible increment amounts)

[Geoff Waddington]

Considering doing a proper implementation of Folders has got me thinking about VCAs and Folders overall.

Perhaps we should add 2 new Associated Zones:

VCA.zon
Folder.zon

They would be very similar to the Track Zone, overriding most/all of Track Zone's functionality, it would give us a lot more flexibility.

What say you good folk ?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Considering doing a proper implementation of Folders has got me thinking about VCAs and Folders overall.

Perhaps we should add 2 new Associated Zones:

VCA.zon
Folder.zon

They would be very similar to the Track Zone, overriding most/all of Track Zone's functionality, it would give us a lot more flexibility.

What say you good folk ?

That sounds very interesting. Would this replace the Tracks/VCA/Folder modes and be more like the Send/Receive/FX Zones?

[AtmanActive]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Perhaps we should add 2 new Associated Zones:

VCA.zon
Folder.zon

They would be very similar to the Track Zone, overriding most/all of Track Zone's functionality, it would give us a lot more flexibility.

What say you good folk ?

Sure.

[Puck]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Considering doing a proper implementation of Folders has got me thinking about VCAs and Folders overall.

Perhaps we should add 2 new Associated Zones:

VCA.zon
Folder.zon

They would be very similar to the Track Zone, overriding most/all of Track Zone's functionality, it would give us a lot more flexibility.

What say you good folk ?

That’s a great idea.

I think SoundGuyChris and you Geoff mentioned you wouldn’t want this new approach to effect Reapers track visibility. I’d be in the other camp. I’d love to “spill” a folder and all that folders children tracks be the only thing visible and in Reaper. Say the folder has 10 tracks underneath. I’d like to see the folder track and the 10 tracks underneath in Reaper and hide everything else. Then be able to bank through on the surface.

But don’t let this niggle halt development of this idea though, I maybe the only one who feels like that and I already have a system to show and hide tracks at will.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Puck

That’s a great idea.

I think SoundGuyChris and you Geoff mentioned you wouldn’t want this new approach to effect Reapers track visibility. I’d be in the other camp. I’d love to “spill” a folder and all that folders children tracks be the only thing visible and in Reaper. Say the folder has 10 tracks underneath. I’d like to see the folder track and the 10 tracks underneath in Reaper and hide everything else. Then be able to bank through on the surface.

But don’t let this niggle halt development of this idea though, I maybe the only one who feels like that and I already have a system to show and hide tracks at will.

Ok, more reason to have separate Zones for them.

[Geoff Waddington]

Thinking through this...

I think we should keep the banking values for VCA and Folders, even when you GoHome.

That way, when you go to VCA/Folder mode you are where you left off, seems reasonable, but maybe I'm missing something.




By definition, like Tracks, VCAs and Folders are in Page context.

So, using CycleTrackVCAFolderModes should automatically broadcast to all surfaces.

Seems reasonable, until you consider this nuance.

Suppose you don't use VCAs or Folders and thus have neither VCA.zon or Folder.zon present anywhere in your system.

It's a bit more work, but it seems that the CycleTrackVCAFolderModes should only cycle to the next mode if it is available on at least one of your defined Surfaces.

So, using our MCU/X-Touch, etc., example, say you had only Track.zon and Folder.zon defined.

Pressing the "nameValue" button should toggle between "Tr" and "fl", and never show "VA", since no Surfaces have a VCA.zon present, make sense ?



Finally, thinking of adding 2 new Actions:

    VCABank
    FolderBank

the equivalents of:

    TrackBank

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ok, more reason to have separate Zones for them.

It would be awesome if the same idea could be extended to Groups themselves. That is to say that Group leaders (of any or selected types) could be displayed and their contents spilt.