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Old 07-05-2010, 10:22 AM   #1
Dannii
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Default The Meters guys, the Meters!!!

VOTE for this FR HERE

Some of you will know what this is all about by the name of the topic. UPDATE - Please note this is NOT a specific request for K-System implementation. I simply use the K-System here as an example. This request is all about options.

Request updated 17th June 2014

In my humble opinion, the metering in REAPER needs some TLC. For run of the mill stereo mixes, the meters are adequate but the tracks have the ability to be assigned multiple channels and the meters should be able to display more than two audio outputs on a given track.

This request may need to be broken down into sub categories but I would imagine that most of this can be implemented in one update.

Update 2, 17th June, 2014 - CLICK HERE to vote for Airon's detailed EBU R128 meter specification request

Here are my suggestions....

(1) Request now implemented. See examples below for further refinement possibilities. Track meters should be able to display more than two channels. Ideally up to eight meters for 7.1 mixing, or at least six for 5.1 mixing. This could be configurable for anything from ONE meter for mono tracks right up to the maximum available in the update.
Multiple meters are also useful for side-chain and FX send level monitoring and a single mono option for mono material would make it MUCH clearer which tracks contain mono files.

(2) Request now implemented. Master channel should have the same.

(3) Request now implemented. Master fader should adjust the output level of ALL assigned channels.

(3a) Meters should be switchable between three options: pre fade/post FX, pre fade/pre FX or post fade. Track meters and master meters should be switchable independently (for example, post fade on tracks and pre fade/pre FX on master).

(4) Meter scales and numerical displays should be able to be customised in themes with adjustable 0dB points.

(5) Master and track meter option - display peak as a small line over the RMS meters.

(6) Meters should have independently adjustable integration and fall-off time and adjustable peak hold time.

(7) Meter graphics should have theme assignable ranges to avoid the weird stretching on themes where 0dB is an RMS value and the headroom above this could be up to 20dB (as per the K-System scale). In my K-System example below, the red LED's above the 0dB mark are actually ONE PIXEL lines!! That is how much REAPER is currently stretching the top portion of the mcp_master_vu.png file!

(8) In themes with no custom meter png's, the meters should have user definable colour zones with sharp definition between zones as an option to the current gradual fade (see K-System meter spec below for an example).


Here's a few examples....

My implementation (K-14 meters as per my Neve/Calrec/Bob Katz theme) of a different scale to REAPER's standard scale....


I used some tedious Photoshop work to add the extra values to the scale but the way REAPER stretches the graphic above the 0dB line made it impossible to add the K standard dB text markings ABOVE the 0dB line (the meters in my theme are actually accurate and the values are correct but I cannot add text values at +1,2,3,4dB, +8dB, +12dB, +16dB and +20dB).
Here's the full K-system meter spec...


InspectorXL implementation of RMS and Peak meters on the ONE display (note peak hold on BOTH RMS and Peak)


Possible example of master and track meters with 5.1 monitoring
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Last edited by Dannii; 06-17-2014 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 07-05-2010, 10:56 AM   #2
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This would be awesome!
+1
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:16 AM   #3
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Oh, *definitely* yes!
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Old 07-05-2010, 12:23 PM   #4
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Yep, this would be a killer graphic update... go for it, guys!
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Old 07-05-2010, 12:26 PM   #5
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This would finally give me the push I need to set up K-14 in my mixing room.
+1
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Old 07-05-2010, 12:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuraMorte View Post
This would finally give me the push I need to set up K-14 in my mixing room.
+1
You can do that now if you utilise my Neve, Calrec, Bob Katz theme which also contains all the calibration files and instructions. The link is in my signature.
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Old 07-05-2010, 12:37 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
You can do that now if you utilise my Neve, Calrec, Bob Katz theme which also contains all the calibration files and instructions. The link is in my signature.
YGPM.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
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YGPM.
PMRT.

I edited my first post here to help clear things up a little
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:31 PM   #9
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If anyone has it, add a small GIF animation of a Dorrough meter, which has a highly configurable peak/rms combo display as well.

Excellent presentation. It's everything I'd need in metering.
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:58 PM   #10
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This video should demonstrate it pretty well:

http://www.dorrough.com/part2.html
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:10 AM   #11
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If I know a bit the company, the forthcoming vertical meters will bring new life to the conventional meters...but... just speculating of course.

I noticed that every release is more or less focused on particular functions, so, for me, something about meters is in short-medium term plan.

- Mario
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:27 AM   #12
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That would be amazing!

I'd love the chance to mix, just using rms meters on each channel and have k metering as above.
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:12 AM   #13
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Even as someone with an abiding 'meh' for surround sound (which I am) this gets a big YES from me because it would really demystify all manner of multi-stream and sidechain routing activities for which Reaper is so very very powerful.
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Old 07-06-2010, 02:12 AM   #14
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Awesome guys! Great to see some REAPER heavyweights here giving this some extra traction.
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Old 07-06-2010, 07:35 AM   #15
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I would very much like to see this too...


Steve...
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Old 07-06-2010, 07:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
Track meters should be able to display more than two channels.
Indeed. +1!
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Old 07-06-2010, 07:49 AM   #17
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very good topic and presentation, my +1 too

It would make sense to have up to 32 mono meters visible per track. That's how many outputs a 16 (stereo) multi-out VSTi is gonna have. Some go even higher than that.

And I miss the one channel mono meter. Some tracks I force mono, and a single meter is a good visual indication.

plus a few nitpicks like configurable peak hold time etc... but the main points presented here are very important.

Last edited by Evan; 07-06-2010 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 07-06-2010, 07:54 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
Here are my suggestions....

(1) Track meters should be able to display more than two channels. Ideally up to eight meters for 7.1 mixing, or at least six for 5.1 mixing. This could be configurable for anything from ONE meter for mono tracks right up to the maximum available in the update.
Multiple meters are also useful for side-chain and FX send level monitoring and a single mono option for mono material would make it MUCH clearer which tracks contain mono files.
Yes please! As White Tie said, even without much need for 5.1/7.1 this would be fabulous for multi-stream and side chain routing. Considering the ubiquity of these surround formats it seems to me that having at least 8 channels would be sensible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
(2) Master channel should have the same.
+1. This is probably only useful to surround mixing (but surround mixing really isn't niche anymore in 2010).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
(3) Meter scales and numerical displays should be able to be customised in themes with adjustable 0dB points.
Huge +1. I've made K-metering work for me in REAPER but this would be a welcome change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
(4) Master and track meter option - display peak as a small line over the RMS meters
I think this is similar to like how the Dorrough loudness meters work; it's a very nice way to integrate peak and RMS into a single meter (I personally would prefer it to the status quo of parallel vertical meters but that's more of an aesthetic nitpick than a function request). Still +1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
(5) Meter graphics should have theme assignable ranges to avoid the weird stretching on themes where 0dB is an RMS value and the headroom above this could be up to 20dB (as per the K-System scale). In my K-System example below, the red LED's above the 0dB mark are actually ONE PIXEL lines!! That is how much REAPER is currently stretching the top portion of the mcp_master_vu.png file!
Another big +1. In fact this is the thing I like least about doing K-metering in REAPER: there's no intuitive sense (color coding) about the different ranges. I want a color to mark the -1 to +1 range (or thereabouts) and a different color to tell me when I'm between +1 and +6 let's say (and a different more alarming color for above that).

So that's a +5 from me.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:51 PM   #19
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another +1 on this - great stuff Dannii !!

I would also like to see the option to select alternative meter colours - for those who are red/green colourblind it would be nice to choose e.g. blue instead of green....
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:32 AM   #20
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+1!
Also I can't wait for the "coming soon" vertical vu-meters: perharps a good opportunity to also "fix" multi/mono channel metering (not sure though.. as the FR requests tiny meters, by definition )

Here's a JS I can share in the meantime, it's a multi-channel vu meter (up to 64 channels). It automatically adapts itself to the room you give to it in the GUI (stretching) and to the number of track channels:



note: gif issue, the JS isn't sluggish

It doesn't feature all the good stuff (re-)discussed here: it simply allows checking peaks, volumes and of course stuff like "is there some signal on channel 37 ?" (that's why I did it). Oh well.. better than nothing.. but AFAIK, this is the only up-to-64 channel meter out there (?).

"User manual" (since we don't have this FR):
Code:
- Click on peaks to clear them (clicking the "master" one clears all peaks)
- Click anywhere else to switch between the GUI modes: 
  * Vertical meters / fixed size 
  * Vertical meters / auto. fit to size 
  * Horizontal meters / fixed size 
  * Horizontal meters / auto. fit to size 
- Top slider & text field: with "auto. fit to size" modes, channel numbers 
  can't always be isplayed, use this to highlight the channel you want to monitor..
Download

Note for those looking to the code: I really had to fight not to eat all the CPU with 64 channels in JS, pretty please, support this other FR (2 votes!!!)


[EDIT] it's strange how the number of downloads doesn't match the number of votes for the linked JS FRs

Last edited by Jeffos; 07-07-2010 at 07:14 AM. Reason: updated "User manual" ;-)
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:38 AM   #21
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Added two new points to the suggestions in my first post....

(5) Meters should have independently adjustable integration and fall-off time and adjustable peak hold time.

(7) In themes with no custom meter png's, the meters should have user definable colour zones with sharp definition between zones as an option to the current gradual fade (see K-System meter spec below for an example).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hercules View Post
another +1 on this - great stuff Dannii !!

I would also like to see the option to select alternative meter colours - for those who are red/green colourblind it would be nice to choose e.g. blue instead of green....
Great suggestion Herc. I added point (7) above in response to you.


Jeffos,
That is a VERY useful JS. Downloaded and installed. If only I had that one for the gig I did recently where I used REAPER with a quadraphonic PA system.
I voted 'yes' for both of your FR's too.
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:48 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hercules View Post
I would also like to see the option to select alternative meter colours - for those who are red/green colourblind it would be nice to choose e.g. blue instead of green....
+1

I didn't even know the meters used more than one color until I saw this post.
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:05 PM   #23
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in acid, when you use the mousewheel on the track meters you can quickly change the meter resolution to suit the source material. I'd like a similar thing in reaper, maybe in the meter context menu.

Also, I'd love a dockable dorrough meter to put on my second monitor, that would be very cool
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:07 PM   #24
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How do we go about making all this into an official FR?
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:12 PM   #25
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You'll need to post in the Tracker sub-Forum. But first make sure you've got all the relevant info ready to write in a concise way, with pictures to demonstrate.

Then post a link to this thread as the discussion thread so new people can keep providing input.

I hope this FR goes the distance.
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:19 PM   #26
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Cheers Tim.

FR posted HERE
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:23 PM   #27
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It looks I've been the first to vote for this new FR, but I envision a very quick vote increase.

- Mario
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Old 07-07-2010, 02:36 PM   #28
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Let's hope so Mario... and thanks for voting.
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:07 PM   #29
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Added this to the Feature Requests Greatest Hits thread.

Nice one. A 4.0 candidate for sure.

JS, as good as it is is no substitute, especially for performance reasons. Great stand-in though, if used sparingly.
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:09 PM   #30
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Awesome stuff Airon Cheers
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Old 07-07-2010, 06:18 PM   #31
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+ 1 : i would like to see multichannel meters.

- 1 : however i am strongly opposed to altering the meter scale so that the -0db dB line
is obscured by an arbitrary standard which has no grounding in science (k-system).

x10 : as for rms, mine is k-9, of course... woof!

---

serious f.r.----> i think a valuable f.r. could for be a meter overlay which allows a user
to set a secondary "zero line"; e.g. "0 VU" for those who interface with analog boxes.
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Old 07-07-2010, 08:44 PM   #32
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+1 for these features!
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Old 07-08-2010, 05:09 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dannii View Post
Jeffos,
That is a VERY useful JS. Downloaded and installed. If only I had that one for the gig I did recently where I used REAPER with a quadraphonic PA system.
I voted 'yes' for both of your FR's too.
Thanks Dannii. What a shame for your gig: this plug was sleeping on a french hard-drive for more than a year!! I should really release those things!

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
JS, as good as it is is no substitute, especially for performance reasons. Great stand-in though, if used sparingly.
Airon, of course: that JS doesn't prevent a native implementation! I clearly said that above, and, BTW, I voted out loud!

I want to reply about JS perfs 'cause I often see that "speech" but this is a bit wrong/debatable, Airon (and simply false for the JS posted here) => Beware! huge OT ahead!

For example, IMHO, JS is THE solution for MIDI processing: no perf issue *at all* in that case (especially since v3.06). Even the most complex MIDI JS I ever did doesn't go over 0.5% of CPU use.
About audio: this also depends on how you code.. The JS I linked here is a typical example: if it was implemented the "straight way", it would simply have been unusable (with 64 ch) but you can make things usable, I'd even say that this is part of the coding game (and I like that!). E.g. on my setup, that JS "only" uses 3% of CPU with 64 ch (I know some VST comp that use more with 2 channels) and 64 ch is a crazy use-case, isn't it ? The CPU use for standard surround / multi VST outputs is negligeable.

That said, such vu meters are quite "simple" to code. When it comes to FTT or (unavoidable) array management per sample,.. well, let's be honest, JS isn't the way to go, sure.. => again, please support this FR

Last edited by Jeffos; 07-08-2010 at 05:14 AM.
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Old 07-09-2010, 10:38 AM   #34
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Well, I didn't take my time to read everything. But, yes, I would love to get an K-system / VU PPM metering at the main output and on some bus channels. :]
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Old 07-10-2010, 04:45 AM   #35
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Quote:
(1) Track meters should be able to display more than two channels. Ideally up to eight meters for 7.1 mixing, or at least six for 5.1 mixing. This could be configurable for anything from ONE meter for mono tracks right up to the maximum available in the update.
Multiple meters are also useful for side-chain and FX send level monitoring and a single mono option for mono material would make it MUCH clearer which tracks contain mono files.

(2) Master channel should have the same.
One of the much needed features for me.

I must add : the meter in the Render window must have the same number of channels too.
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Old 07-10-2010, 05:01 AM   #36
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i think that analog v.u. and current digital broadcast standards are real
concerns for some reaper users. but these were not included in the f.r.

on the other hand, i am a professional mastering engineer, and k-system makes no sense to me,
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Old 07-10-2010, 06:06 AM   #37
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insane
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Old 07-10-2010, 07:24 AM   #38
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Update 11th July 2010
(3a) Meters should be switchable between three options: pre fade/post FX, pre fade/pre FX or post fade. Track meters and master meters should be switchable independently (for example, post fade on tracks and pre fade/pre FX on master).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerberus View Post
i think that analog v.u. and current digital broadcast standards are real
concerns for some reaper users. but these were not included in the f.r.

on the other hand, i am a professional mastering engineer, and k-system makes no sense to me,
This FR is not so much about metering standards but more about making fundamental changes to REAPER's metering options so users and themers can customise the metering to conform to ANY standard.
I simply used the K-System (which is FAR more than just a metering standard) as an example because that is what I use in my studio and my REAPER themes.
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Old 07-10-2010, 08:47 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerberus View Post
- 1 : however i am strongly opposed to altering the meter scale so that the -0db dB line
is obscured by an arbitrary standard which has no grounding in science (k-system).
facepalm.jpg

K-system is based on the ear's flattest response at a certain volume level, can't get more scientific than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerberus View Post
i think a valuable f.r. could for be a meter overlay which allows a user
to set a secondary "zero line"; e.g. "0 VU" for those who interface with analog boxes.
+1
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Old 07-10-2010, 09:57 AM   #40
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so this is the level we want for peaks? or quiet sections? or should we set our rms to this
magic number? and what about the levels that the music was recorded at? or listened to at?
does this apply to both ambient -and- metalcore? or just to styles and genres that mr. katz likes?


does mewsik just need to be flat on your anaylser at one level to be "perfect"?
and do you correlate this with records you love? or those that sell? if the goal
is to hear properly, then i would strongly suggest altering one's monitoring
levels often, and even their monitors.. it's called "perspective" doctor. get some.

ear fatigue is known to be a major impairment to judgement,
it would certainly pay off to alter one's monitoring levels during
the day simply to ward off ear fatigue.

seems fletcher and munson have some competition here...
and if only it were that simple, the k-system would have
been discovered in the 1920's, not made up in the 2000's.

what mr. katz really wants, and he's said this countless times,
is to stop the lowdness warz, by decree of his guruness...
good luck with that angle.

triple facepalm with a half lutz.png

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+1
i can feel your love for the freedom to be lowd... seeping out of those warm shiny boxes. +11 !

Last edited by cerberus; 07-10-2010 at 10:19 AM. Reason: added another db of rms, because we can.
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