Old 07-05-2008, 04:50 PM   #1
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Default 2.4 Pre 6

v2.4pre6 - July 5 2008
+ better loop-scrub/jog mode (configurable ranges, better sound quality)
+ better scrub ballistics
+ made demo project use less CPU (changed resampling mode)

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Old 07-05-2008, 05:15 PM   #2
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Very nice scrubbing (esp loop) and options now.

Except...

Can the "dim" amount when scrubbing be configurable? It seems now to be set slightly low for my taste - and you can bet all tastes with vary!
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:26 PM   #3
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Wow, very good work on the scrubbing implementation. Sounds very smooth, thanks. I agree with Art about the dim level.
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:26 PM   #4
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... and getting really nitpicky, so probably ignore this, but if you have scrubbing set to play selected tracks only, then selecting no track, or the master track, should perhaps scrub all tracks.

It's really working nicely. I tried various values for loop scrub in prefs but your default is very well chosen, I'd say.

For someone with visual impairments this could all be particularly handy - people with partial or even almost no sight do use DAW programs!

Last edited by Art Evans; 07-05-2008 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:28 PM   #5
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Automation bugs:

Mute envelope...enables at the top of the item at first, if you delete all nodes in time selection, it then appears in the middle of the item.

The first node of an item envelope is still deletable, if you accidentally delete that, your envelope is gone for good.
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholas View Post
v2.4pre6 - July 5 2008
+ better loop-scrub/jog mode (configurable ranges, better sound quality)
+ better scrub ballistics
+ made demo project use less CPU (changed resampling mode)

Also (seems to be undocumented):

The action window has a separate window for main/midi etc (help-show action list).
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:46 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans View Post
... and getting really nitpicky, so probably ignore this, but if you have scrubbing set to play selected tracks only, then selecting no track, or the master track, should perhaps scrub all tracks.
A good idea.

Quote:

It's really working nicely. I tried various values for loop scrub in prefs but your default is very well chosen, I'd say.
What was the default again...-88 to zero?

I'm using 0 to 80ms at the moment, is there an advantage looping to the cursor, rather than from it? I assume the cursor is at zero when stopped.
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Old 07-05-2008, 05:51 PM   #8
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If going forward to a transient (or unwanted click), and you want to hear the moment that the transient begins to sound, and you want the cursor to be on that edge of the transient, then you want -88 0 (or minus whatever, but 88 does seem dead right).
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:03 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans View Post
If going forward to a transient (or unwanted click), and you want to hear the moment that the transient begins to sound, and you want the cursor to be on that edge of the transient, then you want -88 0 (or minus whatever, but 88 does seem dead right).
True, and only -88 or close seems to work.

If I decrease the first figure (to say 50ms) and move in on the zoomed transient, I get sound further away then if I leave it as default (whereas, I thought if I decreased it, I could get closer to the item before any audio was heard).

Increasing the first value works as expected, but not decreasing it.

That said, the default works great! I'm having a blast with this...
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:19 PM   #10
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Just to clarify that...I can increase the first number to get closer to the zoomed item edge before audio sounds, up to -92.

Once you hit -93, audio sounds way back to the left, further than -70.

Here's an explanatory pic with markers:



And see where audio starts sounding at -93:



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Old 07-05-2008, 06:27 PM   #11
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It's not where it starts sounding that's the key thing, it's where it stops - hence the negative number followed by zero. So as you edge rightwards, you won't hear the transient till the cursor just touches it. Then move the cursor a tiny bit to the left, so you don't hear the transient start, and cut right where the cursor is (well, assuming you do want to cut right before the transient). The loop is extending backwards from the cursor. Increasing the negative first figure simply gives you more of what leads up to the transient - in essence, too much information if the negative number is too big.

(We may be saying the same thing...!)
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:32 PM   #12
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[-88]----[0]===^
=[-88]----[0]==^
==[-88]----[0]=^
===[-88]----[0]^
====[-88]----[0] - here you hear the transient, just.
===[-88]----[0]^ - edge back and cut

- where the cursor is [0] and the transient is ^ and the loop extends back to [-88]

If you don't want to do the edge back thing, set the right figure to say 5ms (-88 +5) and you'll cut 5ms before the transient that you can just hear.

Last edited by Art Evans; 07-05-2008 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:37 PM   #13
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I think jog/scrub is bypassing my master FX. Is it? Should it?
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans View Post
It's not where it starts sounding that's the key thing, it's where it stops - hence the negative number followed by zero. So as you edge rightwards, you won't hear the transient till the cursor just touches it. Then move the cursor a tiny bit to the left, so you don't hear the transient start, and cut right where the cursor is (well, assuming you do want to cut right before the transient). The loop is extending backwards from the cursor. Increasing the negative first figure simply gives you more of what leads up to the transient - in essence, too much information if the negative number is too big.

(We may be saying the same thing...!)
Yeah, I got that...just saying, something weird happens here from -92 to -93...and I find -92 slightly more accurate than -88.

It's not a huge deal, but the team needs to know any bugs before release, so...
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Old 07-05-2008, 06:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans View Post

If you don't want to do the edge back thing, set the right figure to say 5ms (-88 +5) and you'll cut 5ms before the transient that you can just hear.
Ahh, thanks for pointing that out...I'll have to try that too.
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Old 07-05-2008, 11:09 PM   #16
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And a wine/linux report for the Reaper team, the scrub's a lot smoother in this latest incarnation. The settings work as they should.

Onwards and definitely Upwards.

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Old 07-05-2008, 11:37 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by nerdfactormax View Post
I think jog/scrub is bypassing my master FX. Is it? Should it?
yeah jog/scrub doesnt go through any of the fx.. (except item fx)
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Old 07-05-2008, 11:52 PM   #18
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Loop scrub - awesome.. sounds just perfect to me! Nice job.

Scrub/jog with mouse - great.. better control.

Scrub with keyboard - feels different and less responsive. I thought that one was already zoom dependent so I didn't think it would have changed from pre5-6. Is it feeling different for anyone else?


Justin, the action list showing the different sections is not working correctly.. with MIDI/List editor sections it's just matching up assigned shortcuts to main window command numbers... and the assigned shortcuts shown seem to be incorrect too.

Right now if you are in main window and select "MIDI window" section, you end up executing the equivalent main window command number - not the command with name you select. I appreciate it's not (currently) possible to call MIDI editor commands directly from main window (quantize etc) but this gives the impression you can.

When you're in the MIDI Editor you can't call up that action list with "?" so that adds further confusion. I thought since you would only call an action when focus is on the correct window, it should just show the action list related to that window?

If the problem is that the MIDI/List editor being in the dll means you don't have that same action list functionality then maybe the "?" could just pass-through by default on those windows and the action list detect which window had focus?

Will be great to have those action lists across all modes, though!
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Old 07-05-2008, 11:57 PM   #19
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Yeah, I got that...just saying, something weird happens here from -92 to -93...and I find -92 slightly more accurate than -88.

It's not a huge deal, but the team needs to know any bugs before release, so...
Of course. A quick experiment indicates the appearance of some non-linearity around the point you mention, but I wonder whether that's to do with any smoothing of the loop crossfade that may be going on becoming apparent at that point.
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Old 07-06-2008, 12:57 AM   #20
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Hi
SCrub seems cool, but : how do you use it ?
THanks !
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Old 07-06-2008, 01:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic View Post
Hi
SCrub seems cool, but : how do you use it ?
THanks !
grab the triangle atop the edit cursor... drag it left and right = jog.

press and hold [ctrl] the mouse disappears and that is scrub. The mouse disappears but the edit cursor then represents the playback head. you hear exactly what you see beneath it.

press and hold ctrl and alt and you have loop-scrub. Loop scrub has and offset preference that allows you to configure how many ms you hear on either side of the cursor. so long as the modifier keys are pressed Reaper will loop the defined offset.

it is killer.

but this is even more killer...
forget that little triangle. click and hold down the middle mouse button. drag left and right... now you are jogging. Add ctrl for scrub and alt+ctrl fro loop scrub action!

now the difference between jog and scrub:
your guests just spilt coffee on your Persian rug...

you jog to the rug and scrub at the stain
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Old 07-06-2008, 01:52 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholas
+ better loop-scrub/jog mode (configurable ranges, better sound quality)
mmh, the range doesn't seem to be correctly set 100%.

why do I hear the waveform already ~2ms earlier when scrubbing in front of it? i know, 2ms isn't much, but why not being 100% exact here?

FIXED

Last edited by Dstruct; 07-06-2008 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 07-06-2008, 01:57 AM   #23
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Thank you, Tallisman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
grab the triangle atop the edit cursor... drag it left and right = jog.

press and hold [ctrl] the mouse disappears and that is scrub. The mouse disappears but the edit cursor then represents the playback head. you hear exactly what you see beneath it.
Ok, i get it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
but this is even more killer...
forget that little triangle. click and hold down the middle mouse button. drag left and right... now you are jogging. Add ctrl for scrub and alt+ctrl fro loop scrub action!
That, i don't get it : when i do it on an empty zone, it modifies the loop region lenght, and when i hit ctrl on a clip and drag the mouse left or right, it duplicates the clip.
Could you tell what i am doing wring ?
THanks
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Old 07-06-2008, 02:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic View Post


That, i don't get it : when i do it on an empty zone, it modifies the loop region lenght, and when i hit ctrl on a clip and drag the mouse left or right, it duplicates the clip.
Could you tell what i am doing wring ?
THanks
MIDDLE mouse button?
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Old 07-06-2008, 02:20 AM   #25
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mmh, the range doesn't seem to be correctly set 100%.
I've uploaded a single-sample click (in a ten second wave file) to http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/9/...ne%20click.wav - using that it seems that "0 to 100" gives a spot on result, here, and "-88 to 0" is .005 secs out - and playing around with the figures (with the first negative) can't locate it precisely - maybe we're expecting too much, or there is a tiny bug.
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Old 07-06-2008, 02:26 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
now the difference between jog and scrub:
your guests just spilt coffee on your Persian rug...

you jog to the rug and scrub at the stain
.t
Not exactly correct.

If a guest spills coffee on your persian rug, you get the maid to jog to the rug and then scrub.

Far more civilised, dear fellow.






On a more serious note, can we get some keystrokes as alternative to click and middle mouse button?

for example, ctl+shift+left/right arrows for scrub.
and Alt+left/right arrows for jog. (Just for examples)

Each with up and down arrows determining speed?

Is this possible?
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Old 07-06-2008, 02:34 AM   #27
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Heh, despite that little oddity, I've just tried the same test in Adobe Audition, which is used in a great many radio studios for editing, and their loop scrub is clearly less accurate than Reaper's. Yay!
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Old 07-06-2008, 02:41 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Evans
Heh, despite that little oddity, I've just tried the same test in Adobe Audition, which is used in a great many radio studios for editing, and their loop scrub is clearly less accurate than Reaper's. Yay!
Still, that doesn't help us.


It's too inaccurate for me in Reaper (when zoomed in to more details of a waveform).

FIXED

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Old 07-06-2008, 03:47 AM   #29
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Maybe it's time for an extra icon dedicated to scrub isn't it??
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:03 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Bevosss View Post
MIDDLE mouse button?
Doh.
I must be really dumb :
- holding [ctrl] and mousewheeling makes, as usual, a vertical zoom ;
- holding [ctrl] and hitting my scrollwheel makes the zoom icon appear, but doesn't produce any sound.

I guess i'd better wait for the official release with a manual update or explanations. I guess there are too many new features i don't get
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Old 07-06-2008, 04:34 AM   #31
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HOLD the middle mouse button DOWN and drag for jog...hold Ctrl down as well and drag for scrub.

(although I set that backwards in preferences/playback, and have to use shift as well)
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Old 07-06-2008, 08:24 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
mmh, the range doesn't seem to be correctly set 100%.


see http://www.outburst-audio.com/misc/l...ange-issue.jpg (looped segment range set to: -88ms to 0ms)

so why do I hear the waveform already ~2ms earlier when scrubbing in front of it? i know, 2ms isn't much, but why not being 100% exact here?

If you get a updscrub2.zip on LoL, it should fix that.. there were two small issues that caused this, one was the fact that a HP filter that was being applied was applied to an extra bit, so you could hear some latent samples from the filter...
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Old 07-06-2008, 08:41 AM   #33
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Quote:
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If you get a updscrub2.zip on LoL, it should fix that
nope. maybe it's a bit better (quiter) - i'm not sure. but i still get sound 2ms before the actual content! so it's still not usable here when zoomed into detail on a waveform.

FIXED



what i also notived:

-> add a audio-file to a track
-> make a 4 ms selection in front of it (selection should end a bit before the audiofile)
-> playback in loop-mode

=> i hear sound! but there isn't any item in the selection!

if i extend the selection to 6ms to the left, the sound goes away (but the master-meter still is showing levels)!




+ the mouse is TOO slow now in scrub-mode when zoomed in to detail on a waveform! not usable anymore IMO!

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Old 07-06-2008, 09:17 AM   #34
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one was the fact that a HP filter that was being applied
just curious, why do you need to put a highpass filter on there at all?
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Old 07-06-2008, 09:31 AM   #35
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Wow Reaper scratching is fun. I feel like DJ Jazzy Drillbit and the Fresh Prince. Flipping between the modifyers with the middle click (wheel) is quite creative process. I might have to mix down some scratchy jams and edit them into something cool.

Excellent..moo.ha..har!
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:04 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
just curious, why do you need to put a highpass filter on there at all?
if you're not in looped-mode, and are doing slow scrubs, you can get some serious DC offsets which make for lots of clicks, and also seem to upset some soundcards...
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:14 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
if you're not in looped-mode, and are doing slow scrubs, you can get some serious DC offsets which make for lots of clicks, and also seem to upset some soundcards...
yeah you're right, DC offset can be a terrible thing


but can you reproduce the issue that it still is reading/playing ahead for about 2ms?
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:25 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
yeah you're right, DC offset can be a terrible thing


but can you reproduce the issue that it still is reading/playing ahead for about 2ms?
yeah fixing.. it was a lowpass filter used too (it was supposed to not be used in loop mode but a floating point rounding error caused it to be anyway.. )

-Justin
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:34 AM   #39
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alright
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Old 07-06-2008, 02:01 PM   #40
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Yeah....I was noticing the lack of clicking and excellent resolution...great! I absolutely LOVE the rubber band ballistics of the play cursor in scrub mode. I can stay in one section and get very fine, or immediately jump to a new area by slamming the mouse to the right. The cursor accelerates nicely, then slows down in just the right way. Schwa must've studied his calculus

FYI...I am noticing a bit of glitching with my Lynx2 card. It's a bit like the the famous "motorboating" with Sonar. It seems to happen sometimes in an especially dense (lot's of waves playing) region. Not a huge issue, but something to at least check out??? I'll play with buffer settings. FYI...this is a 96k/24 bit project, so I'm taxing the system a slight bit more than usual.

Good stuff...BB
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