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Old 08-11-2018, 05:06 AM   #1
andyp24
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Default FR - extended Group functionality (meta-Items)

Hi

I'm sure there's a better name for this feature :-) but here's the idea.

Select a few Items on the playlist (these can be on the same track or different tracks) and "group" them together into a meta-item. They now appear as a single entity, with one name, one colour etc. The meta-item can be moved, split, copied, pasted etc as one entity. The fade in/out can be adjusted as one entity.

However, also you can add Item FX to it and this will apply to all the "underlying" items. You can add Item Volume/Pan Automation which will apply to all the underlying items.

At any time, you can "ungroup" them into their individual items again if you need to.

This would achieve much of the benefits of Non-Destructive Glue, but without rendering a new file.

If anyone would like to see a "demo" of this, I can make a video of the way the SADiE DAW does this (although SADiE doesn't have item FX or automation).

Hope this gets some support.
Andy

Last edited by andyp24; 08-16-2018 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 08-11-2018, 06:41 AM   #2
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There are e.g. Groups and Subprojects ...

-Michael
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:17 AM   #3
jm duchenne
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Yes, it is the "sub-project", if it could work without audio rendering like the initial PIP... (one of my bigger regrets).
Perhaps is there yet some hope for such a possibility ?
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:55 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
If anyone would like to see a "demo" of this, I can make a video of the way the SADiE DAW does this (although SADiE doesn't have item FX or automation).
i am not sure about the request but i would like to see inwhat it differs from groups in reaper already, specially since adding fx does not happen in that software.

Also, non destructive glue seems a track by track thing, and not so much multitrack thing. It seems it would be very complex, but i don't know! i am curious : )

Good luck
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Old 08-11-2018, 11:05 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm duchenne View Post
Yes, it is the "sub-project", if it could work without audio rendering like the initial PIP... (one of my bigger regrets).
Perhaps is there yet some hope for such a possibility ?
+1 !!!!!

-Michael
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:17 PM   #6
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Neither Groups nor sub-projects achieve the same thing.

Groups can't have FX or Item envelopes applied to them.

Sub-projects may be closer (although they require rendering which is less than ideal) and I'm not sure there's a way to take any given collection of Items and turn them into a subproject. Haven't looked at how they work in recent versions though...
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:23 PM   #7
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There is a script for this: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=136273
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Old 08-11-2018, 04:09 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
Neither Groups nor sub-projects achieve the same thing.

Groups can't have FX or Item envelopes applied to them.

Sub-projects may be closer (although they require rendering which is less than ideal) and I'm not sure there's a way to take any given collection of Items and turn them into a subproject. Haven't looked at how they work in recent versions though...
Yes, you can take any collection of Items an make them a subproject.
And you can use many subproject-aliases in the parent-project. But with the
subproject you slightly loose flexibility.

My suggestion is pooled boxes.
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Old 08-11-2018, 10:21 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
But with the subproject you slightly loose flexibility.
E.g. you obviously can't route audio or Midi into a pre-rendered subproject. Hence the long standing request for the "live" subproject type, only doing administrating but not dedicatedly handling audio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
My suggestion is pooled boxes.
Why not call them "(live) Subprojects" and use the same configuration paradigms as with the current (pre-rendered) Subprojects ?


-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-12-2018 at 03:40 AM.
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Old 08-12-2018, 02:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
There is and I've tried it. However it doesn't quite achieve the same thing when working with multiple tracks and it's not totally reliable (the script author implies in the later part of the thread that it may not be developed further until there are API changes).
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Old 08-12-2018, 02:45 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
Yes, you can take any collection of Items an make them a subproject.
And you can use many subproject-aliases in the parent-project. But with the
subproject you slightly loose flexibility.

My suggestion is pooled boxes.
Agreed- I think you are after the same sort of thing as me. Sub projects lose the connection between an Item and the track it was on, so track FX and Sends/returns etc are lost along with track automation.

The idea of meta- or pooled items leaves the original items where they are so this link isn't broken (unless you deliberately move the meta item to new tracks). Also, and this is critical for me - the meta item can have Item FX and envelope added to it which affect all the underlying items.
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Old 08-12-2018, 03:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
(the script author implies in the later part of the thread that it may not be developed further until there are API changes).
Yeah, you can "vote" in the FR, which you'll find in my signature.
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Old 08-12-2018, 03:59 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
Yeah, you can "vote" in the FR, which you'll find in my signature.
Already have... it won't let me vote twice!!

A.
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Old 08-12-2018, 04:23 AM   #14
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Already have... it won't let me vote twice!!
Well, you can write something there to make people see it.
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Old 08-12-2018, 04:33 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
Well, you can write something there to make people see it.
Good point 😁 I'll do that too.
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Old 08-12-2018, 05:04 AM   #16
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hey andyp24, just to let you know, this script does still do some rendering, it works using reapers standard audio item 'glue' function, its just that it usually doesnt take long since the stuff you are rendering is small items.

also it was never really intended to be multi-track, it was just for items on a single track.

the API changes i requested were simply to speed it up when dealing with large numbers of items needing updates when you edit a group... while there are other improvements i guess could be made, ive kinda lost motivation to do this...

from your use of the existing script, do you have any suggestions as to how youd like to see it improved? some of these suggestion may literally be impossible, but i am interested in what you and vitalkers thoughts are on what could be improved
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Old 08-12-2018, 06:32 AM   #17
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Hi Matthew (I assume that's your name?!)

Thanks for pitching in on this. It's a while since I tested out your clever script, and as it wasn't quite doing what I wanted in some instances I ended up stopping. I'd have to go back to testing in order to give you much useful info, as I can't remember the details.

I do understand it's using the native Glue function to render (quickly) items, but retaining the info about what the original items were in order to undo the glueing later if necessary. That's fine - it's not as neat as a "meta-item" in some ways (which doesn't render at all), but in some instances would do the trick nicely.

I would definitely want it to be multi-track though, to solve all the uses I'd need. For example in Sound Designing for TV/Radio Drama, suppose I'm creating something which is the sound of a "sci-fi blaster". I could put together a load of items on various tracks stacked up, and have different FX/sends on those tracks. That "group" could be duplicated and appear dozens of times in the drama.

Now supppose the Director listens to what I've done, and wants to change some elements of the "blaster" sound. I don't want to have to change each one - I want to edit one instance and all the rest update automatically.

Subprojects would be the way to do this except that I might need to use different processing on some elements of the sound each time. For example, I might want to send the high frequency ZZZZAP part of it into a reverb (a different one depending on the scene), but NOT send the very low frequency BOOM part of it at all. This is why keeping the original items in the "meta item" on their original separate tracks is essential, which can't be done with sub-projects.

I can't off the top of my head think of a tidy way to make your non-destructive glue script work across many tracks in this sort of scenario either. But you're probably cleverer than me at thinking of solutions to this!
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Old 08-12-2018, 10:09 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
For example in Sound Designing for TV/Radio Drama, suppose I'm creating something which is the sound of a "sci-fi blaster". I could put together a load of items on various tracks stacked up, and have different FX/sends on those tracks. That "group" could be duplicated and appear dozens of times in the drama.

Now supppose the Director listens to what I've done, and wants to change some elements of the "blaster" sound. I don't want to have to change each one - I want to edit one instance and all the rest should update automatically.
That's a good example - it shows why this kind of
"modularity" would be very beneficial. Also in a profane
song there are repeating parts which need this feature.

Again, the first simple step would be just to have such a
"container of items", which can be pool-copied.

In the terminology of reaper the "referencing" is called
"pool-copied". In Cubase you call it "shared copies",
in Logic it is called "aliases".

How the "container of items" are called doesn't matter.
In Cubase they are "parts", in Logic we have "folders".
Some suggestions have been made:

1. meta-items (andyp24)
2. live-subprojects (mschnell)
3. item-boxes
4. item-container
5. ...
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:45 AM   #19
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Just been doing some more reading up on the Sub Projects to make sure I haven't missed anything in recent updates that would cover my request.

The "Move Items to new sub-project" only works on a per-track basis.... ie if you have a selection of items spread across different tracks and invoke this command, it will make a new sub-project for each track. This is not what is needed.

Yes, I realise you can set up a folder to contain all the tracks in the "meta-item" and create a sub-project from that, which contains all the individual tracks, but you still lose the connection with the mixer tracks in the main project, so any sends are lost as are any subsequent changes to track processing.

I still believe the FR, for a "meta item" (which is a really non-destructive way of tying things together within the project) is valid.

Perhaps we should call it a SuperGroup instead?

Andy
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Old 08-13-2018, 03:46 AM   #20
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Default name suggestions

Haha, yes, here's the current list of "name suggestions":

1. meta-items (andyp24)
2. live-subprojects (mschnell)
3. item-boxes
4. item-container
5. supergroups (andyp24)
6. smart groups
7. item-patterns (Ivannn Bennnettt)
8. ...

---------------------------------------------------
Threads about "pooled boxes"
---------------------------------------------------

Item Patterns by Ivannn Bennnettt - with 3 "n" + 3 "t"

Meta-Items by andyp24 - this thread

Pooled Boxes by enroe - with some pictures

Enough for reading ...
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Old 08-13-2018, 06:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
I still believe the FR, for a "meta item" (which is a really non-destructive way of tying things together within the project) is valid.

Perhaps we should call it a SuperGroup instead?

Andy
the name is irrelevant i think. maybe someone can make a licecap gif showing cubase parts and glue? is that what OP is talking?
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:03 AM   #22
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I don't know Cubase at all (well, since the early 1990s anyway!) so I don't know what that does.

The feature is one from a DAW common in radio broadcasting (SADiE) but my request expands upon it a bit.

I can try to capture a video of it if you wish, but it's very simple... Imagine like a Group which already exists in Reaper (multiple items across multiple tracks) but with the addition that:

1) You can add Item Automation to it, and it will act on every member of the group

2) You can add Item FX to it, which will act on every member of the group.

3) You can Copy and Paste it and (optionally) the copies are Pooled, so an edit on one affects all the others.

4) Adjusting Fade In and Outs of the Group would affect the result exactly as if the group had been rendered to a single item (currently, moving a Group fade in moves the fade ins of all contained items by the same amount, which isn't what you want if some start later than others).

So basically, in terms of editing and item envelope/FX it behaves like a single rendered item; but in terms of its position on tracks and in the project mixer, it remains as if it's separate items.

Andy
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:09 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
2. live-subprojects (mschnell)
... avoiding to invent a new name, a new concept and new basic configuration methods, by just enhancing the existing subproject feature by additional configuration options such as "live" vs "pre-rendered" and for the "live§ variant you of course need some additional configurations such as routing from/to the main project.

There even already is a tutorial video about this, as Kennie's video on Subprojects does not put stress on the pre-rendering (which of course is great to avoid overload), but on the track and item administration enhancements subprojects provide.

So this clearly is the "Reaper way" to do this .

The next advantage is that live subprojects could later be enhanced to "remote subprojects" that instead of being pre-rendered are to be run on another box, replacing the ReaMote feature that is known to provide certain issues, and providing an even better user interface than rewiring Reaper with Reaper and using some - non exising but often requested - Rewire via Network infrastructure. Here the ReaMote TCP/IP routing audio and Midi streams between the boxes protocol could be re-used. See also here -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....ght=subproject

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-14-2018 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:42 AM   #24
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As noted above - SubProjects do not work across tracks in the same way that is requested here.

But yes, if it can be made to achieve the same end, I don't care what it's called!
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Old 08-13-2018, 10:38 AM   #25
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You can subproject a folder track containing tracks which contain the items you want, and then split it into separate items, each one of these can then have their own item fx, but still reference the same project. You can also duplicate them and edit them while still retaining the original subproject data within them.

Does this help?

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Old 08-13-2018, 10:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
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... avoiding to invent a new name, a new concept and new basic configuration methods, by just enhancing the existing subproject feature by additional configuration options such as "live" vs "pre-rendered" and for the "live§ variant you of course need some additional configurations such as routing from/to the main project.
For me this doesn't become clear. What
do you mean by "live-subproject"?

The idea here is pretty easy: Just
draw a box around any number of items -
and call that "a box".

What's the difference to a group?
The difference is: You can pool-copy
the box!
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:02 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travesty View Post
You can subproject a folder track containing tracks which contain the items you want, and then split it into separate items, each one of these can then have their own item fx, but still reference the same project. You can also duplicate them and edit them while still retaining the original subproject data within them.

Does this help?
Thanks! I've explained the difference to subprojects here
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:05 AM   #28
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+ 1 for audio parts / glued parts like in cubase and reaper ultra approach enhancements in version 6 .5 tho : P
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:22 AM   #29
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Quote:
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The idea here is pretty easy: Just
draw a box around any number of items -
Why should the group of items to be combined need to graphically be located near to each other. This does not make any sense to be.

-Michael
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Old 08-13-2018, 11:46 AM   #30
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Quote:
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Why should the group of items to be combined need to graphically be located near to each other. This does not make any sense to be.

-Michael
That is because man is always graphically thinking and
imagining. Things and items that belong together should
also be graphically put together. Otherwise you'll have a
mess and you'll be heaviliy confused - especially in huge
projects. It is a question of ergonomy and overview!

Items which belong together - e.g. chorus vocals,
e.g. a sound-part at a repeating location - should always
be together in the same place - and thus representing
"one entity".

The same is valid in your every-day-life: Would you
distribute your tax papers all over in your department
at different places? No!

The principle of "what belongs together should be placed
together" is valid in life - and also in a DAW.
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:01 PM   #31
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I am not convinced.

One might want to deal with multiple "sets" of items within the complete count of items that are in the tracks of the project. Each of hose sets using it's own selection paradigm. You are not able to move the tracks in a way that multiple of the sets have an obvious graphical representation.

-Michael
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:36 PM   #32
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Quote:
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I am not convinced.

One might want to deal with multiple "sets" of items within the complete count of items that are in the tracks of the project. Each of hose sets using it's own selection paradigm. You are not able to move the tracks in a way that multiple of the sets have an obvious graphical representation.
i guess it all depends on the functionality and the representation of that and what the software heads want.

Anyway! you can see in another perspective: with a container you clean the project, less confusion. visually more quick and obvious. Imagine hundred of peaces that are ment to be reused and we don't want to change them often or at all. Grouping them will make a single peace that represents all of them. So 1 hundred peaces became 1 thing on your project. This helps visual organisation i think.

edit: Can anyone make a licecap of glueing and editing glued parts in cubase?

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Old 08-13-2018, 01:43 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travesty View Post
You can subproject a folder track containing tracks which contain the items you want, and then split it into separate items, each one of these can then have their own item fx, but still reference the same project. You can also duplicate them and edit them while still retaining the original subproject data within them.

Does this help?
Yes to a degree BUT even though the subproject is multitrack, once it's rendered and playing in the main project the individual tracks can't have different sends to reverbs etc.
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Old 08-13-2018, 01:49 PM   #34
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Agree with previous post from deeb.

I am always in for less visual clutter in Arrange.
I use grouped items alot (which btw is a great feature in itself, not seen in many other DAWs in my experience).

But seeing Grouped Items as just one "block" will give rest to my eyes.

Maybe a toggle action implementation that toggles between visuality of the specific items belonging to a group and otherwise just a group "block" (?)

But i am very aware of the questions (issues?) that arise when you want to do editing / trimming/ fading such a visual block, meaning: how must the items (and automation items/envelopes) within that visual block react on those editing/trimming/fading actions ?
Maybe just the same as goes for Grouped Items (?)(!)
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:06 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
I am not convinced.
Well ... haha ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
One might want to deal with multiple "sets" of items within the complete count of items that are in the tracks of the project. Each of hose sets using it's own selection paradigm. You are not able to move the tracks in a way that multiple of the sets have an obvious graphical representation.
if you really have projects that are so convoluted and diffuse,
then you seriously should overthink your project organization.

In reaper you define "selection sets" - and you can "group" items.
Both work with all over the place diffuse allotted items.
But here we talk about a set of items, which are copied and
referenced
to a second set of the same items, and to a third set of
the same items, and etc ...

Exactly with this "copy" the importance of the placement emerges:
The set of items is copied from one place to another place. Therefore
it is essential that the items of the originating set are "together at one
place".

Mathematically you can abstract from the "place"-attribut
and say: "It doesn't matter where these items are. They can
be anywhere distributed in the arrange window." But if you
do so you would loose every overview and every ergonomy
in the handling of the item set. Think about many pooled copies
of the item set - all totally irregular scattered over the
arrange-window - it will become totally confusing. Do you want
to mathematically count items? Or do you want to make music?

--> Why so complicated ...

... when it is possible to have it easy: Draw a rectangular box around
your items, say "box" - and create "pooled copies" of this box.
And so the whole item set as a cohered entity will be referenced.


---------------------------------------------------------------

That said ...

... in your case of irregular distributed items, which should
be copied together, there'll be only one way: You must
arrange them to a number subprojects and copy these
subprojects.

BTW: In Apple Logic and in Cubase I don't know any
solution to this "distributed parts"-problem.
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:11 PM   #36
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Quote:
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BTW: In Apple Logic and in Cubase I don't know any
solution to this "distributed parts"-problem.
Groups in reaper are good as they are imo. Gluing non destructively items (only in same track imo) into a container would be very nice for organisation and being able to put fx on this container would be nice too it seems ! Gluing implies they are together. Group implies they are grouped. 2 distinct views.

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Old 08-13-2018, 02:24 PM   #37
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Groups in reaper are good as they are imo. Gluing non destructively items (only in same track imo) into a container would be very nice for organisation and being able to put fx on this container would be nice too it seems ! Gluing implies they are together. Group implies they are grouped. 2 distinct views.
I not sure you understand what this is all about:

This is not about glueing. It is about "pooled copies".
And that is NOT possible with groups (neither in Reaper,
Cubase or Logic).

But in Apple Logic and Cubase you can have
"pooled copies" by using special container (parts,
folders). This kind of container is missing in Reaper.
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:31 PM   #38
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I not sure you understand what this is all about:

This is not about glueing. It is about "pooled copies".
And that is NOT possible with groups (neither in Reaper,
Cubase or Logic).

But in Apple Logic and Cubase you can have
"pooled copies" by using special container (parts,
folders). This kind of container is missing in Reaper.
in cubase the container you refer are glued wavs (you have to use glue tool, and this makes a container,right?).

Imo It wouldn't make much sense pooled copies of groups, in some way for the reasons you told mschnell about "diffuse/ displaced items" would be easily chaotic if pooled, but for glued items would make sense pooled copies - they are together, so no diffusion, no displace.
Get it now?

i have a new name for the feature: Glued Items !! : )

Last edited by deeb; 08-13-2018 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:53 PM   #39
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in cubase the container you refer are glued wavs (you have to use glue tool, and this makes a container,right?).
No.

In Cubase you can put Audio-clips into a "part". You can
put as many Audio-clips into a part as you want. And you
can make many many "shared copies" of this original part.

In Logic you can put Audio-clips into "folders". You can
put as many Audio-clips into a folder as you want. And you
can make many many "alias copies" of this original folder.

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Originally Posted by deeb View Post
Imo It wouldn't make much sense pooled copies of groups, in some way for the reasons you told mschnell about "diffuse/ displaced items" would be easily chaotic if pooled, but for glued items would make sense pooled copies - they are together, so no diffusion, no displace.
Get it now?
Ok - I see what you mean.

You suggest one of the workarounds: If you have many audio-items,
partly overlapping and with automation curves - you can put
them together by glueing. You also could render or freeze
them to a new audio-item. After that you can copy these new
audio-items.

But if you want to change something in the origin composition
of audio-items you have to start the process of glueing,
rendering or freezing from the start. And you have to do the
copying again.

All these tedious "glueing or rendering" and "copying"
could be avoided just with "pooled boxes" or whatever
you call such a container.
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Old 08-13-2018, 02:59 PM   #40
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No.

In Cubase you can put Audio-clips into a "part". You can
put as many Audio-clips into a part as you want.
my memory keeps something different. I should be wrong then! i would like to see a licecap!

Quote:
Originally Posted by enroe View Post
You suggest one of the workarounds: If you have many audio-items,
partly overlapping and with automation curves - you can put
them together by glueing. You also could render or freeze
them to a new audio-item. After that you can copy these new
audio-items.
I am thinking about a feature only.
I mean Not render , because that is destructive. It's a glue that is not rendered in a new audio and re editable or unglueable.
Also, i mean items: wav or midi, overlapping or not.
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