I have been multitracking my drummer. 2 overheads and 1 close mic each for hihat, snare, rack tom 1, rack tom 2, floor tom, and kick. We have really cheap drum mics.
The overheads seem to capture the whole kit quite well especially considering that we are recording in a bedroom. They really sound pretty good to me. But, the snare and the kick do not sound good, with the toms being okay/acceptable. We do not have the mics or inputs to multimic the snare or kick. Between lousy technique and poor mics the kick and snare are especially underwhelming to say the least.
So I want to replace them with samples. But, honestly I don't know where to begin. I've read a little that there is a JS for this or I guess you can make ReaGate transmit the midi.
Can you help me with a free step by step solution?
Using preferably Reaper's included effects, free VSTi's, and free drum samples.
Also, I'd like to stick directly with drum replacement on this and not discuss drum programming (I have a drummer, so not going to program my own beats). The genre is rock/folk/funk, if that makes sense. But, it'd be helpful to others if you know of other free sample sources that are good for other genres as well.
Thanks! I just didn't find very good results for this topic in the search.
It's been a while since I did this, and I might get this wrong, but it is easy, and I think you have a good grasp of the principles already.
Place a copy of the recording on each of two tracks. Name one of them 'Kick source' and one of them 'snare source', or similar. Start each track's FX chain with ReaEQ. For the kick, you might need to high shelf the track so that only the kick opens the ReaGate. Isolate the snare using high and low filters. These tracks should now sound truly terrible, and it doesn't matter. Set the gates to send MIDI; the kick to send note 36, the snare to send note 38 (this should work for most drum VSTis). Now have those tracks send only MIDI, NOT audio, to a new track (or one each, if you prefer). Kill the audio from the source tracks to the master. Place a free drum VST on the new track; there are hundreds of them, they're easy to find, and there's a brand spanking new one here. Mix to taste.
Right, I'm going to watch the video to see if I got it right....
I have one suggestion, though.
Instead of ReaGate, use the JS plug "MIDI/drumtrigger". This plug is also a gate, but it is volume sensitive, so a hard hit on the audio track will produce a MIDI note with a higher velocity. Many drum samplers will differentiate and a high MIDI velocity will trigger a sample of a well smacked drum whereas a lower velocity will trigger a softer sample.
In my experience, Reagate creates all MIDI notes with the maximum velocity of 127.
Last edited by dug dog; 11-12-2014 at 09:36 PM.
Reason: clarity
Instead of ReaGate, use the JS plug "MIDI/drumtrigger". This plug is also a gate, but it is volume sensitive, so a hard hit on the audio track will produce a MIDI note with a higher velocity.
Good point. This is kind of necessary for any genre that would require real sounding drums in the first place.
I don't know why, but YouTube just hadn't crossed my mind on this. I really like the video on that link. It's very concise and right to the point.
I come from Cubase, so I was thinking that I'd have to create a new track for the VSTi but he did it right on the same track. Very cool.
I found a link on KVR for a free download of DrumMic'A from Sennheiser's German website. Couldn't find it on the US website. Haven't had a chance to try it out yet though. The download is huge 4.7GB.
Any other recommendations for VSTi or do you just use the sample player that's built in?
Any other recommendations for VSTi or do you just use the sample player that's built in?
It depends how many samples you're dealing with, and how much you want to mess with them. The sample player that comes with REAPER (RS5K) is ultra-reliable, of course, and brilliant for quick, dirty jobs. For anything more complex, you might need to bring out the heavy guns. No recommendations spring immediately to mind, but there are threads about drum VSTs all over this forum. Do you want freebies, or do you have a budget?
Right now I'm not wanting to get real complex with it. Really, if I had just one professionally recorded kick and snare sample that matched up with my drummer's acoustic kit I could probably get by with that. Then just process the replaced track as usual. I imagine that would be a great deal better than the result I'm getting from our recording.
Although I think the DrumMic'A manual talks of 25 velocity layers and 6 round robin variations to help it sound more realistic. But it has the same 8 piece kit spread out over 30 keys. So, I'm guessing you have to change the midi note to actually take advantage of the round robin feature. It didn't really say.
I definitely do not want to mult every single hit to create separate midi notes to hit all the round robin variations.
Really, if I had just one professionally recorded kick and snare sample that matched up with my drummer's acoustic kit I could probably get by with that.
Personally, I'd rather have a selection, and choose on a song-by-song basis. Matching the original shouldn't really be important, IMO. Still, if that's what you really want, can't you beg, borrow or steal a half-decent mic for a couple of hours and record your drummer's kick and snare getting bashed at various velocities? For that matter, even the mics you already have could be ok for recording a drum in isolation....
For that matter, even the mics you already have could be ok for recording a drum in isolation....
Thanks, I don't really know anyone with any better mics than what I've got. Not that I have great mics. I just don't know many other people into recording is all.
I had thought of recording my own samples after watching the youtube video when it pointed out Reaper's built in sample player. I might try that out next band session. I'm just not sure my mic'ing technique chops are enough to get a much better sample even in isolation. Then there's still the crappy room we're recording in (untreated bedroom).
We've experimented with different mic placements and such. And there was some noticeable improvement.
So, maybe it really boils down to the kit is just cheap, hasn't had new heads since God-knows-when, and I'm not sure if the drummer is tuning it right (I'm no drummer). I mean, there's a pillow in the kick and when I asked him what that was for he said dampening. But when I asked how, he could not explain what it's specific purpose was. I reached in there and moved it away from the beater head and immediately we started getting a better tone. It's almost like they just threw a pillow in there because they've seen other people do it.
I know there's a lot of crummy things going on in our recording process (amateur engineer, cheap mics/cables, crappy space, direct recording guitar pedals), but it seems like the drum kick & snare are what stick out the most as sounding bad.
I'm not sure if the drummer is tuning it right (I'm no drummer).
You might be surprised how many non-drumming recording engineers can tune a drum kit (with their own keys, no less), because, of course, quite a few drummers can't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by insub
I mean, there's a pillow in the kick and when I asked him what that was for he said dampening. But when I asked how, he could not explain what it's specific purpose was.
It's a very common practice, and it's easy enough to understand. Think of the function of the bass drum in a marching band.... it's a big, booming noise, very different from the dull, thudding kick we like to hear beneath our rock & pop masterpieces. Stuffing pillows, blankets, dismembered relatives etc in the kick drum just makes it less boomy, the same as furnishing an empty room makes it less echoey, IYSWIM.
By the way, if you're experimenting, try taping a coin to the beater. It can help to bring out the kick, especially when listening on systems lacking bass definition, by adding frequencies (clicking, basically) that don't have to pick a fight with a bass guitar.
could you post up a sample recording so we know what we're dealing with?
and get a sense of your expectation.
plus what is your mic placement for each?
i've been recording a band in an untreated basement.
overheads i've been going with recorderman (in a bigger/better room i would do glyn johns).
then a spot mic on top of snare and in the kick.
on the snare i point down closer to the rim than the center but not directly down - out just a few inches.
for the kick i aim the mic toward the corner where the head meets the shell diagonal from the opposite corner.
considering all things i think i get a dedent sound. of course it takes some work with eq and other processing to get it to my liking.
Thanks, I don't really know anyone with any better mics than what I've got. Not that I have great mics. I just don't know many other people into recording is all.
I had thought of recording my own samples after watching the youtube video when it pointed out Reaper's built in sample player. I might try that out next band session. I'm just not sure my mic'ing technique chops are enough to get a much better sample even in isolation. Then there's still the crappy room we're recording in (untreated bedroom).
We've experimented with different mic placements and such. And there was some noticeable improvement.
So, maybe it really boils down to the kit is just cheap, hasn't had new heads since God-knows-when, and I'm not sure if the drummer is tuning it right (I'm no drummer). I mean, there's a pillow in the kick and when I asked him what that was for he said dampening. But when I asked how, he could not explain what it's specific purpose was. I reached in there and moved it away from the beater head and immediately we started getting a better tone. It's almost like they just threw a pillow in there because they've seen other people do it.
I know there's a lot of crummy things going on in our recording process (amateur engineer, cheap mics/cables, crappy space, direct recording guitar pedals), but it seems like the drum kick & snare are what stick out the most as sounding bad.
Hi insub, I haven't read though all the posts. You mention you have great mics so we'll put that aside. However, you mention "(untreated bedroom)". That probably means you have a wood floor sitting on floor joists 16 inch apart. This is pure disaster for recording drums. You need a shockmount system for each mic in a situation like that.
If you're going to record drums in a "(untreated bedroom)" you do need some absorption panels at the very least. But even if you've got that covered, you've still got the floor. Everytime a drum is hit, it's going down through the floor and then back up the mic stands, and there lies maybe the worst of your problems. The only answer to that are shockmounts and quite frankly, what you can buy commercialy might not work.
Here's a couple of things I did but it's totally do it yourself,
could you post up a sample recording so we know what we're dealing with?
and get a sense of your expectation.
plus what is your mic placement for each?
i've been recording a band in an untreated basement.
overheads i've been going with recorderman (in a bigger/better room i would do glyn johns).
then a spot mic on top of snare and in the kick.
on the snare i point down closer to the rim than the center but not directly down - out just a few inches.
for the kick i aim the mic toward the corner where the head meets the shell diagonal from the opposite corner.
considering all things i think i get a dedent sound. of course it takes some work with eq and other processing to get it to my liking.
I don't know what you mean by "recorderman" and "glyn johns". I think you're talking mic setup strategies. I'll have to google it.
@Tod: No, I don't have quality mics. We have a well used CAD Pro 7 mic kit and 1 old beat up Shure SM57. And, yes, we're on a hardwood floor over a crawl space with no shock mounts or absorption panels whatsoever.
The setup is:
CAD KM212 pointed at the center of the beater with the head of the mic approximately even with the hole. No boom for extending inside the drum itself.
CAD SN210 clipped on to the snare rim and pointing at an angle down toward about halfway between the rim and the center of the head. (no bottom mic).
CAD TM211 setup the same as the snare on the two rack toms and one floor tom.
Shure SM57 in a horizontal position pointing directly in between the hihats.
CAD CM217 pair for overheads. Pointing straight down either side of the kick about 4' apart and about 6'6" high.
The kit is in the corner of the room with some light blankets/drapes on either side. We have 5 guys crammed into a bedroom (no amps) with the recording desk and keyboards. I mean CRAMMED.
Otherwise we have a handful of really cheap AudioTechnica M8000s, a couple of Shure PG48s, and 1 Audix f50 vocal stage mics. And I have one AudioTechnica AT3035 (I think) condenser mic. Not for certain about all those as the exact models.
Solo your overheads and listen to how different the kick and snare sound is in both.
Check this image out:
Although the volume of the two are fine are appear centered, the tonal differences alone cause these two important sounds to feel strange with both mics hard panned.
In the picture, you see the lines drawn between the two mics and the perpendicular line. Notice that line bisects both the snare drum and kick drum, both are in the middle of the overheads.
Also make sure the overheads are an even distance from the snare drum. Use an XLR cable to measure this.
As for replacing or augmenting a drum, first set up ReaGate to send MIDI:
Set the threshold to a good value to catch the hits and utilize the filters at the bottom to narrow in the area. Kick drum mics on the resonant side are typically vibrating heavily around 110hz, so you might want to drag down the LPF to around 300 or so.
Then load up ReaSamplomatic5000, browse for your sound(s), and adjust settings to get the velocity close to the original sound.
This adds the sample to the original sound. If you want to replace it, just drag the Wet slider in ReaGate all the way down. The RS5K sample plays, Reagate still sends it MIDI, but the audio before the Gate is removed.
I would say your kick drum probably needs this, it doesn't sound very nice.
Your snare might benefit from being augmented by a snare-bottom sound.
As for the high-hat, I'd try a different spot, try pointing the mic towards the bell part ( http://audioneer.com/wp-content/uplo...5/IMG_2267.jpg ) to get more of the ping sound. If you listen to your hi-hat mic vs. just the overheads, they are picking up basically the same sound, one is just a bit more full. The mic could be utilized better to capture more of what the overheads cannot.
As a final note, I'm not sure what's going on with Tom 3, but it sounds pretty indistinguishable. Possibly too close to the drum, may even have been hit by the drum. Even the waveform looks funny compared to the others. It sounds distorted. Definitely look at augmenting the toms and probably replacing Tom 3, but try to get a better sound to begin with first.
i use the same kick & snare mic.
for overheads i use a cad gxl 2400 over the snare & a behringer c1 either over the shoulder or to the side of the floor tom depending on whether i do recorderman or glyn johns.
glyn johns
recorderman
by the way...i don't think your recording is bad at all.
it's rather clean. sounds like some gating was used.
it's just a matter of finding the eq & processing that suits the drums in the mix with the music.
I don't know what you mean by "recorderman" and "glyn johns". I think you're talking mic setup strategies. I'll have to google it.
@Tod: No, I don't have quality mics. We have a well used CAD Pro 7 mic kit and 1 old beat up Shure SM57. And, yes, we're on a hardwood floor over a crawl space with no shock mounts or absorption panels whatsoever.
The setup is:
CAD KM212 pointed at the center of the beater with the head of the mic approximately even with the hole. No boom for extending inside the drum itself.
CAD SN210 clipped on to the snare rim and pointing at an angle down toward about halfway between the rim and the center of the head. (no bottom mic).
CAD TM211 setup the same as the snare on the two rack toms and one floor tom.
Shure SM57 in a horizontal position pointing directly in between the hihats.
CAD CM217 pair for overheads. Pointing straight down either side of the kick about 4' apart and about 6'6" high.
The kit is in the corner of the room with some light blankets/drapes on either side. We have 5 guys crammed into a bedroom (no amps) with the recording desk and keyboards. I mean CRAMMED.
Otherwise we have a handful of really cheap AudioTechnica M8000s, a couple of Shure PG48s, and 1 Audix f50 vocal stage mics. And I have one AudioTechnica AT3035 (I think) condenser mic. Not for certain about all those as the exact models.
The overheads seem to capture the whole kit quite well especially considering that we are recording in a bedroom.
Your demo doesn't sound nearly as bad as I expected. I would say that the overheads are the worst element in the RPP, if only for a nasty whining noise. The kick and snare aren't good, as you know, but I've heard worse. Consider gently distorting the snare, to make it sound.... snarier. This can work, depending on the distortion chosen, and the musical context.
I'm curious to know why you inverted the phase on the kick?
You might want to demo EZmix 2 - it's basically an expert audio engineer in a box. You can fly through different effects chains for kick, snare, overheads, toms, room, bus, and much else besides. This is cheating, of course. By duplicating tracks and employing some creative eq, you can get a lot of mileage out of a very few microphones.
@Fergler: Thanks for that in depth explanation. And the images really help too. I take it you prefer choosing your own constant velocity over using the JS MIDI/Drumtrigger to maintain some semblance of the original performance velocities? Also, I know what you mean about the hihat. When I brought in the spot for it, it just didn't seem to add much other than volume.
@RightOn: Thanks for those videos, though the Glyn Johns is hard to hear. I'll have to watch it again later with headphones when I have a chance. I remember reading about the Recorderman method on the Shure website a few years ago when I first started with my band (had never recorded real drums before). Using the mic cord is a nice tip! The video was definitely easier to understand than the article from Shure.
@Fex: Thanks for those tips. I thought the kick had more punch when it was phase inverted. And, that seemed to make sense to me because my overheads are more on the drummer's side of the kick while the kick mic is on the opposite side. I tried later to manually sync the kick between the two overheads, but though the kick and snare sounded better, the overall sound was weird. I'm going to try recorderman with my overheads next session.
Looks I should have posted that example on the original post. I really appreciate your feedback!
Another thing I noticed in all the videos and pictures. None of the spot mics are clipped on. They all use a boom stand. Maybe I should try moving the spots off the rims as well.
Your demo doesn't sound nearly as bad as I expected. I would say that the overheads are the worst element in the RPP, if only for a nasty whining noise. The kick and snare aren't good, as you know, but I've heard worse. Consider gently distorting the snare, to make it sound.... snarier. This can work, depending on the distortion chosen, and the musical context.
I'm curious to know why you inverted the phase on the kick?
You might want to demo EZmix 2 - it's basically an expert audio engineer in a box. You can fly through different effects chains for kick, snare, overheads, toms, room, bus, and much else besides. This is cheating, of course. By duplicating tracks and employing some creative eq, you can get a lot of mileage out of a very few microphones.
i agree about ezmix2.
i have the full version & several expansion packs.
great stuff for us amateurs.
Well, I'm an amateur when it comes to engineering, and professionals should feel free to contradict me, but....
Quote:
Originally Posted by insub
I thought the kick had more punch when it was phase inverted.
This strikes me as not a very good idea. Ways to give a kick more punch, short of replacing it, might include eq, compression, changing the pitch, or dialing up a punchy kick sound on a demo of EZmix2. Unless there are phase issues to address, phase inversion is probably best left alone (otherwise, there might be phase problems to address).
Here's a video on Glyn John's technique that's easier to hear;
Well, I'm an amateur when it comes to engineering, and professionals should feel free to contradict me, but....This strikes me as not a very good idea. Ways to give a kick more punch, short of replacing it, might include eq, compression, changing the pitch, or dialing up a punchy kick sound on a demo of EZmix2. Unless there are phase issues to address, phase inversion is probably best left alone (otherwise, there might be phase problems to address).
Here's a video on Glyn John's technique that's easier to hear;
Another thing I noticed in all the videos and pictures. None of the spot mics are clipped on. They all use a boom stand. Maybe I should try moving the spots off the rims as well.
I don't think I've ever used or recorded with mic clips during a serious session. I would think that the resonance of the shells would not be a good thing.
Quote:
And, yes, we're on a hardwood floor over a crawl space with no shock mounts or absorption panels whatsoever.
Really and truly if you can figure out a way to suspend your Kik mic I think you'd be amazed. In the picture I show it mounted on a short stand but if you don't have one of those, especially with a heavy base, there are other ways you can do it. Possibly a regular stand with a gooseneck, maybe 2 goosenecks screwed together. The key is to use some very stretchable rubber.
@Tod: Thanks for the advice on mic isolation. I have ordered a pair of pencil mic shock mounts from Amazon and they were cheap enough to forgo self construction. We have enough booms to move the kick mic into the kick. Although, I've heard some people say they just laid the mic onto the pillow inside. What are your thoughts on that method? Doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
I think we're going to go with Recorderman since that will also help boost the kick it seems moreso than Glyn Johns method. Also, we're not using large diaphragm overheads so I'm not sure the floor tom would get the improvements that Glyn Johns method should provide. Maybe we'll experiment with both.
I am considering moving the snare mic to the bottom since the Recorderman setup should pick up the snare much better than the way we had it setup before.
Back to topic: I had success using the DrumMic'a (Kontakt 5) VSTi with ReaGate. The replacement track was a few milliseconds behind the original. No problem to shift it in place manually. Can I use the ReaGate Preopen setting to compensate for the this latency instead? Also, there were some velocity variations in the replaced track, but they were not related to the source recording. Perhaps these are the round robin effects of DrumMic'A?
I could not get the JS MIDI/Drumtrigger to work right. It wanted to drum roll every hit and drove the VSTi crazy. The idea is great if I could get it to work right.
I had a lot of trouble with ReaGate properly triggering the snare. Rolls were too soft to be picked up in most incidences and some of the bleed sounds were loud enough to trigger a hit especially hi-hat. This is another reason I'm thinking of micing the bottom of the snare instead of the top. Now, that I think of it, I probably didn't set the high/low-pass filters for the detection of the snare. I ended up manually cut & copying snare hits for the fills and rolls that were missed and manually adjusting each hit's level to get a more realistic sound. Quite time consuming. This is where the JS plug would shine if I knew how to use it. I didn't have any problem with the kick being triggered even without setting the high/low-pass filters. There wasn't too much bleed on that track.
Have another go at a snare some time, this time with the filters. That should solve a lot of your problems. The rolling on every hit might also be caused by bleed. Snare rolls are inherently difficult to fake well, though. This is one of the main reasons I use drummers in the first place.
The DrumMic'A sounds are great! Especially the snare was much fuller, snappier and the tails ring out in a way that sounds so much better. Even without mixing it in much to the overheads it really stands out a lot better. And, it doesn't sound weird or out of place except for the constant velocity hits which can be adjusted by hand by cutting each hit in the audio file and lowering its level when necessary. The kick is much improved as well. Particularly the bass response. I'm using primarily the overheads and mixing in the kick and snare to taste. Haven't tried replacing the toms yet.
I wonder if I should just plan on replacement from here on out. Obviously, you all know how to do it, but do you plan on it as a matter of common practice or only when absolutely necessary?
Only when absolutely necessary. If a drum kit is recorded properly, you can pretty much get it to sound how you want, with a little tweaking. If you always have to replace the kick, the snare and the toms, you might as well just record the cymbals in the first place, and program the rest. With a little practice, you will get better drum recordings.
There's a good argument for having a selection of (actual, physical) snare drums at your disposal, and choosing the right one for the song.
Real drums are definitely the preferred method in situations where the drummer uses soft ghost notes, rolls, rim shots, etc.
You've already found out that some soft hits won't open the gate, for example, and, if your drummer hits a rim shot that opens the gate, the sampler will think it's a regular snare hit and you'll need to manually change the sample to a rim shot by adjusting the MIDI note or pasting in an appropriate sample. This can become pretty tedious.
For what it's worth, I gave your drums a quick listen and thought they sounded pretty decent. If they're unprocessed, I expect they could be made to sound pretty dang good.
For what it's worth, I gave your drums a quick listen and thought they sounded pretty decent.
Several of us having reached the same conclusion, I wonder if insub has listened to many professionally recorded drum tracks in isolation? It's a good idea, to learn where the benchmark is. Some sound better than others, but they always need a little work to make them sound good in context.
There are multitrack recordings online, and I can post some raw drum tracks I've commisioned, if it will be of interest.
I've never heard a pro drum track in isolation before.
I guess my problem is that I always made electronic music before I was in this band which i joined 3 yrs ago. So, I imagine that I have an unrealistic expectation of what the drums should sound like. First I made trance-ish electronica (15yrs ago), and then I produced a hardcore gangsta rap group (the 10yrs prior to current band). And, I only used synthesizers instead of samples. The samplers at the time were so cumbersome and it was hard to find quality samples without making your own. I'm not a DJ and just never really enjoying the whole process of sampling.
So, essentially playing in and recording a live band is pretty new to me. Before, I was one man with a sequencer and then we just added rappers which only required one mic.
It's been a while since I did this, and I might get this wrong, but it is easy, and I think you have a good grasp of the principles already.
Place a copy of the recording on each of two tracks. Name one of them 'Kick source' and one of them 'snare source', or similar. Start each track's FX chain with ReaEQ. For the kick, you might need to high shelf the track so that only the kick opens the ReaGate. Isolate the snare using high and low filters. These tracks should now sound truly terrible, and it doesn't matter. Set the gates to send MIDI; the kick to send note 36, the snare to send note 38 (this should work for most drum VSTis). Now have those tracks send only MIDI, NOT audio, to a new track (or one each, if you prefer). Kill the audio from the source tracks to the master. Place a free drum VST on the new track; there are hundreds of them, they're easy to find, and there's a brand spanking new one here. Mix to taste.
Right, I'm going to watch the video to see if I got it right....
Would thus work on an already mixed drum loop with reverb and all that? The kick and snare would be easy enough to to target, but I'm wondering about the cymbals, since they're more quiet and sometimes hit the exact same time as the snare....
Would thus work on an already mixed drum loop with reverb and all that? The kick and snare would be easy enough to to target, but I'm wondering about the cymbals, since they're more quiet and sometimes hit the exact same time as the snare....