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Old 03-21-2018, 01:16 PM   #121
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That's when I like fake instruments the best! When they make unnatural or impossible sounds. I love e-drums right up until someone programs a real drum sound into one of them.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:24 PM   #122
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As pianist, I'm trusting Jamstix 3 & 4 AI to keep from making those errors …
Surely AI will be more and more a part of this process as time passes.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:44 PM   #123
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Even more important to me is to speak to people who play the instrument you're writing for, watch them play and get a feel for how the instrument works.

Putting yourself in the shoes of the player is very important, too. Lots of people playing chords into their automatic divisi orchestral patches don't even realise that some poor sod in the orchestra is only playing three notes throughout the whole piece.

If you have people to write for it becomes even more fun, because you know their predilections, talents and limits you can push.
Absolutely. Good orchestration is a line between busting their chops and boring them to death. It makes a hell of a difference - give them a reason to be there, a reason to be interested. They want to be involved.

For instance, people always seem to underwrite for strings and overwrite for brass - the former would lose the will to live and the latter's lips would turn to goo. Both would quickly cease to care. And in many cases, the poor woods are probably sitting there counting empty bars and wondering why they were even bloody hired at all...

An approach that's worked well for me has been to get to know the gang and put the word around that I'm not going to rip their throats out if they approximate the parts a bit. Let them know that we're in this together and I'm open to suggestions.

Always useful too to apprentice for a little while on each instrument, which we used to have to do. Don't have to be a virtuoso, just be able to understand what it's like to saw at it, blow or buzz into it, bash it, etc and experience the situation from the various seats.

As for writing for individuals, I tend to leave that for jazz and Latin stuff, and give them a very long leash to run on.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:58 PM   #124
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https://www.chrisvenables.co.uk/prod...-grand-pianos/

^ check prices--ok that's affordable for some--but as history has taught us these types of instruments were not intended initially for the 'masses' - there was a 'heirarchy' to even owning instruments for loooong time--time has changed that..
In them days 1 would have to work a lifetime (if not born with a silver spoon in mouth) to even buy a piano...then another lifetime to learn to play it..
Lol-have not got time for that- i like instant--instant this n that--- that's real enough for me..

Early choral and percussion training along with the dj'n made me not only focus on specific areas,but all areas..
4me- hiphop dj'n is just 'realtime musical collaging' - hiphop as a culture introduced concepts- peace,unity,love +having fun (global concepts) but the difference was the constant friendly combat and competative elements.
That cultural movement is all about skills-or lack of.. the battle thing just made people better technicians of the craft-- it constantly pushed people to "get better" /improve. i liked that from day1.

Besides- i would rather now-a-days be able to play lots more instruments to an excepted level,than sitting with 1 piano,or set of drums all my musical life---how 'booooring' not boring,but certainly 'limiting' in some ways.
People are stuck with their voice box-but voice is still quite special i think.most of us are born with 1,but not all use it like some can do.

The only fake-is that word itself=manmade. =)
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:04 PM   #125
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Made a living doing that in my cover band days. I'm on a long hiatus from cover gigs, I seem to swap about every decade between original vs cover but it's really about what's going on at the time life wise.
I was recently talked into going out and playing some live gigs again, but I stipulated that if it started to feel like work, that I was not going to stick around. They assured me that it would be a maximum of two or three gigs per month, and our first one is in two weeks.

I'm doing only for the fun of playing some songs I like in front of a live audience, and the money that comes at the end of the night will go for studio toys and beer brewing kits.
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:26 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
https://www.chrisvenables.co.uk/prod...-grand-pianos/

^ check prices--ok that's affordable for some--but as history has taught us these types of instruments were not intended initially for the 'masses' - there was a 'heirarchy' to even owning instruments for loooong time--time has changed that..
In them days 1 would have to work a lifetime (if not born with a silver spoon in mouth) to even buy a piano...then another lifetime to learn to play it..
Lol-have not got time for that- i like instant--instant this n that--- that's real enough for me..
That's just not true. Look how many Victorian uprights are still around. People are still giving them away and I see at least a dozen in local classified ads every month.

You did have to be middle class to own a piano in Victorian Britain, but certainly not silver spoon levels of wealth. Many of the poor still had access to a piano at schools and pubs.
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:36 PM   #127
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https://www.chrisvenables.co.uk/prod...-grand-pianos/

^ check prices--ok that's affordable for some--but as history has taught us these types of instruments were not intended initially for the 'masses' - there was a 'heirarchy' to even owning instruments for loooong time--time has changed that..
In them days 1 would have to work a lifetime (if not born with a silver spoon in mouth) to even buy a piano...then another lifetime to learn to play it..
Lol-have not got time for that- i like instant--instant this n that--- that's real enough for me..

Early choral and percussion training along with the dj'n made me not only focus on specific areas,but all areas..
4me- hiphop dj'n is just 'realtime musical collaging' - hiphop as a culture introduced concepts- peace,unity,love +having fun (global concepts) but the difference was the constant friendly combat and competative elements.
That cultural movement is all about skills-or lack of.. the battle thing just made people better technicians of the craft-- it constantly pushed people to "get better" /improve. i liked that from day1.

Besides- i would rather now-a-days be able to play lots more instruments to an excepted level,than sitting with 1 piano,or set of drums all my musical life---how 'booooring' not boring,but certainly 'limiting' in some ways.
People are stuck with their voice box-but voice is still quite special i think.most of us are born with 1,but not all use it like some can do.

The only fake-is that word itself=manmade. =)
Since we're getting philosophical here, I'll add my own daftness to that.

Remember those fairground rides with an undulating slatted ring and loads of carriages that looked like cut-down upholstered municipal bins? Whirlers they used to call them, or something like that.

Well, if you got on well with the "spinner guy" he'd give you a damn good whirl. He knew the rhythms of the ride and he'd give you a thrill. If your kids or date were about to puke, he'd lay off, but you know...

That's music for me. Whether you're turntabling, funking, punking or rocking out, jazzing, string quartetting or monstering through some batshit modern classical stuff. Or whatever. It's an experience you're sharing with others.

I enjoy gigging and I never feel like I have to compromise what I want to do. Don't actually have much choice really - I can only play one way, my way. Can't coast (and my life would have been easier if I could). But I do feel you should play music to people, not at them.

Anticipation, tension and release. Tease, chase, kiss. You can take any kind of music to the nth degree, but that's all there is to it really. Give em a whirl on your ride.

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Old 03-21-2018, 02:38 PM   #128
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That's just not true.

Many of the poor still had access to a piano at schools and pubs.
Heh-fair points-but how many young mothers,chimney sweeps or cobblers were going to operas or great staged plays then i wonder..? they can all go now--ish..
Also love the simplicity of creating 'instrument patches'-these patches not only serve me well--but potentially the whole globe!! =not tooo shabby
What takes me+others a few hours to create-can last a lifetime=still not shabby .
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Old 03-21-2018, 02:54 PM   #129
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Heh-fair points-but how many young mothers,chimney sweeps or cobblers were going to operas or great staged plays then i wonder..? they can all go now--ish..
Also love the simplicity of creating 'instrument patches'-these patches not only serve me well--but potentially the whole globe!! =not tooo shabby
What takes me+others a few hours to create-can last a lifetime=still not shabby .
Yeah, I'm not down on modern technology at all, and the sharing aspect is really cool.

Back when I was on the Logic forums I gave away a couple of sampler instruments (celtic harp and Bontempi organ), pretty cool hearing people use sounds recorded in my front room all over the world
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:03 PM   #130
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Reminds me of when someone programs 16ths on the hi-hat and they forget to remove it every time the snare is hit (because the drummer only has two arms).
Ah yes, the Virtual Octopus Drummer... Don't forget the overlapping tom fills and ride
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:15 PM   #131
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As long as the music is real.
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:17 PM   #132
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As long as the music is real.
Perfect! I couldn't agree more.

-Susan
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:21 PM   #133
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I don't get why professional performers in the US use fake instruments they don't sound real and I doubt they ever sound like the real instrument. Take a grand piano vs the fake one as an example.
Is this a serious question? Let's see. The average grand piano will cost upwards of about $10,000. A grand piano plug-in can range from $50 to $300 or so.

Do the math. And let's face it, most of the people who listen to professional recordings can't tell the difference between fake instruments and real, nor do they really care.
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Old 03-21-2018, 03:57 PM   #134
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It's an experience you're sharing with others. .
Yep-that's it.music is moments.moments are memorable.memories last lifetimes.
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:08 PM   #135
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As long as the music is real.
+1

I'll add that I'd rather hear a real musician play a fake instrument than a fake musician play a real instrument anytime.
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:27 PM   #136
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Ah yes, the Virtual Octopus Drummer... Don't forget the overlapping tom fills and ride
Old but gold:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1ZGIrNf71Q
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Old 03-21-2018, 04:59 PM   #137
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I never tried playing my hi-hat like that. Looks like it would hurt!
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Old 03-22-2018, 12:43 AM   #138
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This is a hilarious thread.

You would assume that a forum full of musicians and engineers would agree that FAKE instruments produce FAKE sounds.

Music isnt music unless its going from wood or metal. Actually,there has never even been a song made using Fake sounds that remotely succeeded in pleasing anybody.

I hear people now are using fake EQ's as well... They have no idea what theyre missing.

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Old 03-22-2018, 01:14 AM   #139
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This is a hilarious thread.

You would assume that a forum full of musicians and engineers would agree that FAKE instruments produce FAKE sounds.

Music isnt music unless its going from wood or metal. Actually,there has never even been a song made that remotely succeeded in pleasing anybody.

I hear people now are using fake EQ's as well... They have no idea what theyre missing.
At one stage people regarded first the clavichord, later the piano as fake instruments. Well and later equal temperaments? Fake tunings. Valves on brass instruments? Fake, should stick to using crooks. Saxophones? Fake woodwind. Steel strings? Fake gut. Electric guitar and bass, Hammond, Rhodes? All fake versions of other instruments. Great music - which has pleased millions of people - has been written for theremin, synthesisers, tape loops, and so on.

The modern acoustic guitar is basically a fake piano.

If you want to be really pedantic about it, silicon has a lot of the properties of metal, so as a sound source it meets your criteria. The magnets and coils in a turntable cartridge are metal. Many perfectly respectable serious instruments are made from fibreglass and various plastics.

You could also argue that recording and editing music at all is a fake process.
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Old 03-22-2018, 01:53 AM   #140
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Because you can.
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:16 AM   #141
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Ban all Loudspeakers ...

(and move this thread to the Reaper lounge.)

-Michael
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Old 03-22-2018, 04:35 AM   #142
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Perhaps, that's their sound preferences. LOL


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I don't get why professional performers in the US use fake instruments they don't sound real and I doubt they ever sound like the real instrument. Take a grand piano vs the fake one as an example.
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Old 03-22-2018, 04:52 AM   #143
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Yes! Like, why use DAW’s when you can sync a couple of Mara’s?
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Old 03-22-2018, 05:16 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Softsynth
Sure, when you can.
The real instruments are preferable but that can only go so far on a budget and considering time constraints (reiterating the obvious).

For the guys creating orchestral mock ups that isn't even an option. Mock up tech is getting better and better but full orchestra is way behind virtual piano in terms of realism (which could fool plenty of listeners today).




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Speaking as someone who's written for orchestra and big band and mocked up for both, I'd say this is a very exciting time, tech wise.

I've played mocks for discerning musicians and of course they usually notice, but it's pretty damn good enough and doesn't get in the way of their enjoyment (or displeasure) at the music.

I'd say with orch work in general there are two related problems.

1) People tend to give instruments parts that they wouldn't idiomatically actually play. Or in some cases, physically couldn't actually play. Maybe that shouldn't make a difference sonically, but it does. Just doesn't smell right.

2) On a detail level, people don't understand the way the different instrumentalists naturally phrase and use dynamics. They craft away at the ccs like hell, but they lack the finessed understanding to make it sound right. Or at least rightish.

At the risk of sounding like a crusty old professor type, I'd say that modern sampling technology is good enough, but the first thing I'd suggest for someone wanting to make orch stuff sound more realistic is to immerse themselves in Rimsky, Berlioz, Adler, etc. Write some chorales, study sonata form, work on some counterpoint. So add Fux to the reading list. (Gradus ad Parnassum may seem like a farty old text, but it's surprisingly fun - a bit like being taught composition by Yoda.)

And study the sources. So many people are trying to produce stuff that's basically in the Wagner-Holst-Korngold-Williams-Zimmer-Newman vein. But they've never taken those scores apart to find out what really makes them tick.

Of course, if people just want to make music they like at whatever level they like, then fine. But fundamentally, the reason it won't sound quite right isn't so much a matter of the libraries they're using, or necessarily the expertise they apply to using them, as the material they're using them on.
Yes I've noticed the best orchestral mock ups obey the real world heirarchy of instruments (for want of a better way of putting it).
It can be really jarring when people (that clearly must have beeen exposed to very little classical music) create mock ups and do really odd things like having a solo wind instruments playing loud solos over full orchestra!

OTT bombastic use of percussion seems to be rife in cinematic scores too and amateurs copy this.

I keep mainly to synths. Orchestral mock up software is complex. The truly great software is really expensive and the process is massively time consuming; creating orchestral mock ups seems more like programming than playing music and improvising. Developments in Multidimensional Polyphonic Expression interest me more than piano roll.

Also broadband limitations here have also put me off getting into the really good software so far.
Hats off to the guys that do that really well though, I like to hear what they can do.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:46 AM   #145
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This is a hilarious thread.

You would assume that a forum full of musicians and engineers would agree that FAKE instruments produce FAKE sounds.

Music isnt music unless its going from wood or metal. Actually,there has never even been a song made using Fake sounds that remotely succeeded in pleasing anybody.

I hear people now are using fake EQ's as well... They have no idea what theyre missing.
I don't think that "fake" has to be a pejorative term.

What else would you call a sampled or modelled instrument? "Fake" doesn't have to include a value judgement; fake drums are awesome, and I wouldn't want to be without them. I love my fake analogue synths too. I even love my fake Linn plugin - fake fake drums!

A comp'd performance is a fake performance, but all of recording is fakery - compression is fake dynamics, reverb is fake spaces etc. etc... that is what's cool about it!

I wouldn't call electronica fake though, even if it uses samples, because it isn't trying to be anything other than what it is.
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:24 AM   #146
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Heh-some people are forgetting any type of 'modern recording' is going to be passed via circuitries at some or more points these days....
Back in the day...there was no electricity ..right??
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:27 AM   #147
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Heh-some people are forgetting any type of 'modern recording' is going to be passed via circuitries at some or more points these days....
Back in the day...there was no electricity ..right??
A recording isn't fake... unless someone's miming to it.

But I do have a very nice fake tape machine made by Softube. Sounds a lot better than my real reel-to-reel machine!
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Old 03-22-2018, 08:02 AM   #148
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Ahhh..the sound of mime,luv it.
Any type of reaamplification is a diversion/distortion of source.
Again,a lot of the actual differences are physical...1 has to actually BE in the room or occupying space to really soak up the natural vibez of any instrument or player.
Defo not same vibe from a static recording.
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Old 03-22-2018, 08:09 AM   #149
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Ahhh..the sound of mime,luv it.
Any type of reaamplification is a diversion/distortion of source.
Again,a lot of the actual differences are physical...1 has to actually BE in the room or occupying space to really soak up the natural vibez of any instrument or player.
Defo not same vibe from a static recording.
It's not the same vibe, but I wouldn't call a recording fake, because it's not pretending to be real!

It's not about how close to the "source" it is, just whether it is attempting to sound like something else, or if it is just a sound in and of itself.
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Old 03-23-2018, 03:42 AM   #150
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It's not the same vibe, but I wouldn't call a recording fake, because it's not pretending to be real!.
Heh-well once any type of duplication or cloning of that original recording >>could then be considered 'fake' i suppose
Why do you think original things are highly prized.?..because they are unique in all ways.Master recordings are like gold or precious gems to some folks.. heheh.
Personally i tend to see it all as an ocean-and each drop makes the ocean-all is valuable and 'needed' _in that sense.
All is1.we just like to seperate. =)
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:32 AM   #151
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Which reminds me, I make and sell air guitar strings. Hit me up.
Do we get a free pick and cord with that since we're Americans?
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:48 AM   #152
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Heh-well once any type of duplication or cloning of that original recording >>could then be considered 'fake' i suppose
Why do you think original things are highly prized.?..because they are unique in all ways.Master recordings are like gold or precious gems to some folks.. heheh.
Personally i tend to see it all as an ocean-and each drop makes the ocean-all is valuable and 'needed' _in that sense.
All is1.we just like to seperate. =)
Master tapes are prized for technical reasons: generation loss.

That's one of the best things about digital; not having to deal with that.
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Old 03-23-2018, 06:53 AM   #153
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Yes I've noticed the best orchestral mock ups obey the real world heirarchy of instruments (for want of a better way of putting it).
It can be really jarring when people (that clearly must have beeen exposed to very little classical music) create mock ups and do really odd things like having a solo wind instruments playing loud solos over full orchestra!

OTT bombastic use of percussion seems to be rife in cinematic scores too and amateurs copy this.
Oh yeah. Strings and brass belting out boring chords, not so much as a woodwind to be smelled, an army of taiko drummers thundering away and half the population of New Zealand shouting "ee, wah HO!"
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Old 03-23-2018, 02:28 PM   #154
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I've got a real grand in my big room, I'll be damned if I use it in a recording if there are any other pitched instruments involved. In that case its a vsti every single time.
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Old 03-23-2018, 02:34 PM   #155
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I've got a real grand in my big room, I'll be damned if I use it in a recording if there are any other pitched instruments involved. In that case its a vsti every single time.
Couldn't you just get it tuned
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Old 03-23-2018, 04:03 PM   #156
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Speaking as someone who's written for orchestra and big band and mocked up for both, I'd say this is a very exciting time, tech wise.

I've played mocks for discerning musicians and of course they usually notice, but it's pretty damn good enough and doesn't get in the way of their enjoyment (or displeasure) at the music.
Right on.

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I'd say with orch work in general there are two related problems.

1) People tend to give instruments parts that they wouldn't idiomatically actually play. Or in some cases, physically couldn't actually play. Maybe that shouldn't make a difference sonically, but it does. Just doesn't smell right.
Indeed. Composers should write parts and create mock-ups that can actually be played. Synth and sampled instruments tempt people to write impossible parts... oh, wait:

Hungarian Rhapsody, measure 18


Count the notes and octaves in that piano piece for one player (that is two hands with five fingers each). Oh Liszt...
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Old 03-23-2018, 04:25 PM   #157
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Couldn't you just get it tuned
For probably about the next 15 minutes, anything past that, forget it. Those things used to be the bane of my existence
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Old 03-23-2018, 04:28 PM   #158
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For probably about the next 15 minutes, anything past that, forget it. Those things used to be the bane of my existence
Ha! Fair enough
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Old 03-23-2018, 07:22 PM   #159
Jason Lyon
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Originally Posted by pcartwright View Post
Right on.



Indeed. Composers should write parts and create mock-ups that can actually be played. Synth and sampled instruments tempt people to write impossible parts... oh, wait:

Hungarian Rhapsody, measure 18


Count the notes and octaves in that piano piece for one player (that is two hands with five fingers each). Oh Liszt...
Liszt was a bugger, there's no doubt. But he often notated musical intent and many others followed. I know and love some of the Hungarian Showoffs (sorry, Rhapsodies) but not the one you raise here. However, the fragment you posted is perfectly playable.

In the same direct line of tradition, Rachmaninov is known for having huge paws (apparently he could take a 13th) and unusual (Marfan syndrome) stretches between the fingers, but what he wrote rarely demands more than the odd cheeky big 10th. That can be finessed with a bit of consideration and compromise.

At the end of the day, what they both wrote is still fundamentally pianistic. Difficult maybe, very difficult possibly, and it's a challenge. But possible to realise somehow. I've seen birdlike children perform the B minor and Etudes Tableaux.

Maybe the point is that nobody ever told these kids that it's supposed to be impossible?
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Old 03-23-2018, 09:52 PM   #160
mschnell
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
I've got a real grand in my big room,..
So you are more lucky than I am.

Even financial aspects disregarding, I needed to decide whether to have fun in my tiny studio room alone with myself and a real grand or with the musicians of my band and a Midi keyboard system.

(And I am not a good enough pianist to get anything faintly acceptable out of an upright piano) .

-Michael
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