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08-21-2019, 03:57 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Full size audio buffer being added for every plugin (FIXED)
6 of 7 people i've checked with have same issue so far!
1. set your global audio buffer to 1024 and one track add 4 pro-q3 set to natural phase
2. check your track latency on Performance monitor, Pro-q3 natural phase should be 320 samples delay each so 4x320 = 1280 total delay
If PDC for track says 4096 you got a problem
If PDC for track says 1280 everythings working great! please tell us
This same thing happens with any plugins that have small PDC requirements
for example softube TLA-100 has 4 samples of delay! 4x4 = 16 total delay, but on a 1024 buffer setting it will still have 4096 total!
Please don't just say this is wrong test your own setup is working first.
fingers crossed 6 out of 7 of us are idiots and have some basic setting wrong!
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08-21-2019, 04:00 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Not working ^^^
Working Great track 1 has 4 Pro-q3 set to natural phase ^^
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08-22-2019, 06:12 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 797
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I was aware that REAPER align PDC to the nearest buffer size, but somehow I was thinking it does that per track, not per plug-in.
It seems like my imagination was wrong (btw that is easy to check without any special plug-in, just with ReaFIR).
I do not think that is a bug, so this thread is an FR (asked several times already).
In practice, with anticipative processing enabled, REAPER able to work well with small buffer size. I mean for DAWs which process everything in real time that could be a big issue. For REAPER it is not (huge buffer size is required on underpowered for the project or not tuned for audio system only).
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08-22-2019, 06:56 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3
I was aware that REAPER align PDC to the nearest buffer size, but somehow I was thinking it does that per track, not per plug-in.
It seems like my imagination was wrong (btw that is easy to check without any special plug-in, just with ReaFIR).
I do not think that is a bug, so this thread is an FR (asked several times already).
In practice, with anticipative processing enabled, REAPER able to work well with small buffer size. I mean for DAWs which process everything in real time that could be a big issue. For REAPER it is not (huge buffer size is required on underpowered for the project or not tuned for audio system only).
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this seems to happen regardless of anticipative processing and regardless of underpowered computer. I only used 1024 as an example because it more obvious. same problem happens if you buffer is set to 64. You add a couple of 4 sample delay plugins and your buffer is stacked not the correct PDC
If you look at second pic above you will see this doesn't happen for everyone which Is why I suspect a bug. Also every other major daw does not handle PDC by stacking a new full buffer per plugin. they all fit it within current buffer unless PDC exceeds that size. Which is what u expect right?
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08-22-2019, 08:28 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk
If you look at second pic above you will see this doesn't happen for everyone which Is why I suspect a bug.
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I know nothing about this issue but the above also highly fits the possibility of some setting differing between various installs/configs.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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08-22-2019, 08:47 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Known issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
However, the situation where you have 3 plugins in series that each add 1 sample, could be improved (REAPER would add a few ASIO blocks of latency to that track, whereas the theoretical minimum latency added would still be one ASIO block).
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Last edited by Dstruct; 08-22-2019 at 08:56 AM.
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08-22-2019, 09:16 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I know nothing about this issue but the above also highly fits the possibility of some setting differing between various installs/configs.
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I totally agree. Have tried so many diffrent settings but had no luck.
Also 6 out of 7 random people that have actually tested it so far have the same problem which means is probaly not just something stupid ive done to my settings(but possible)
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08-22-2019, 09:55 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oulu, Finland
Posts: 8,062
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Tested with ReaComp, with some "random" latency amounts, with ASIO buffer set to 256 samples (Windows) :
Code:
ReaComp latency in samples Total PDC for 3 instances on 1 track
8 768
44 768
88 768
176 768
352 1536
661 2304
771 3072
1323 4608
__________________
I am no longer part of the REAPER community. Please don't contact me with any REAPER-related issues.
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08-22-2019, 10:14 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
Known issue.
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Great hopefully will be made to be working inline with all other daws soon!
One thing that doesnt make sense though is why was this working for one person if it hasnt been implemented? And he wasnt using a pre-release etc
Even more crazy is i actually experience this issue about 10 years ago but i only used reaper for field recordings and mixing so didnt care at the time. Which puts doubts in my mind anything is going to be done soon
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08-22-2019, 10:25 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios
Tested with ReaComp, with some "random" latency amounts, with ASIO buffer set to 256 samples (Windows) :
Code:
ReaComp latency in samples Total PDC for 3 instances on 1 track
8 768
44 768
88 768
176 768
352 1536
661 2304
771 3072
1323 4608
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Yeah exactly the problem. All multiples of adding full extra buffers. No two plugins fitted within a single buffer
It only takes 3 plugins in a row with 4 samples pdc each and you end up doubling the overall latency of whole project from what you would get in any other daw!
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08-22-2019, 01:42 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios
Tested with ReaComp, with some "random" latency amounts, with ASIO buffer set to 256 samples (Windows) :
Code:
ReaComp latency in samples Total PDC for 3 instances on 1 track
8 768
44 768
88 768
176 768
352 1536
661 2304
771 3072
1323 4608
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Did you test the actual negative delay in the audio stream or did you look at the numbers reaper writes on the screen ?
in the other thread on this issue ( -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=217874 ) I gave my tests results (using JSFX +/- delay set to -1, meaning the plugin reports a PDC of 1 sample). I used a buffer size of 1024 samples:
Code:
# of instances claimed latency in samples sum PDC shown by Reaper measured latency
1 1 1 / 1024 -1
2 1+1 1 / 2048 -2
3 1+1+1 1 / 3072 -3
4 1+1+1+1 1 / 4096 -4
("1 /" is the PDC for the selected plugin.)
I did the measurement as well using a saw plugin and Reaper in stop mode, as using a saw wave stored in a WAV file and Reaper in play mode.
Result: It works correct for me, but the number right of the "/" seems odd:
1) why is this number given instead of the actual sum PDC Reaper correctly applies to the track
2) it this number denotes the size of the delay-buffer Reaper somehow allocates to do the job, why dos this not stay with a single buffer size as long as the sum PDC is small enough ?
-Michael
Last edited by mschnell; 08-22-2019 at 01:57 PM.
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08-22-2019, 01:53 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Negative delay in the audio stream? What's that?
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08-22-2019, 01:55 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
the numbers reaper writes on the screen ?
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These numbers are fine.
Simple test:
-> VSTi
-> plugin with latency
-> plugin with latency
-> plugin with latency
-> play the VSTi via external MIDI keyboard (measure delay "note played" to "sound heard")
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08-22-2019, 02:02 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
Negative delay in the audio stream? What's that?
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In play mode:Reaper reads the media n buffers ahead of where it would read it for PDC = 0 (and - AFAIU - imposes an appropriate delay of up to one buffer size to compensate for non integer buffer multiples.
In stop mode: Reaper imposes a delay of n buffers to all 0 PDC tracks (and - AFAIU - imposes an appropriate delay of up to one buffer size to this track to compensate for non integer buffer multiples.
-Michael
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08-22-2019, 02:03 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
These numbers are fine.)
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What is this supposed to mean ?
Are they correctly describing .... what exactly ?
-Michael
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08-22-2019, 02:07 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
What is this supposed to mean ?
Are they correctly describing .... what exactly ?
-Michael
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The latency you hear with live monitoring. Other DAWs are better optimized (lower latency when you have several plugins with latency on one track).
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08-22-2019, 02:13 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Xenakios's table would be
Code:
ReaComp latency in samples Total PDC for 3 instances on 1 track
8 256
44 256
for the first two examples in an optimized DAW.
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08-22-2019, 02:16 PM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
-> play the VSTi via external MIDI keyboard (measure delay "note played" to "sound heard")
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This is not what PDC means.
Reaper can't do anything about the "play to hear" delay imposed by a VSTi (or a VST) in a "live" situation.
PDC means the compensation done when mixing tracks. Here the tracks not claiming any PDC are more delayed than the ones that claim a PDC.
It would be a bug if the appropriate samples would not be correctly aligned.
If more delay is imposed to the mix than necessary, it would be shortcoming that might be worth a feature request.
It seems like with a single plugin Reaper imposes a delay of a multiple of full buffers to the non PDC tracks and a latency of less than one buffer to the PDC track. I doubt that this can easily be improved.
You seem to claim in the other thread that when using multiple plugins in a row more full-buffer delays than necessary are imposed. This indeed might be a glitch.
-Michael
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08-22-2019, 02:21 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Known issue confirmed by Justin (REAPER adding too much latency, not optimized latency):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
However, the situation where you have 3 plugins in series that each add 1 sample, could be improved (REAPER would add a few ASIO blocks of latency to that track, whereas the theoretical minimum latency added would still be one ASIO block).
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08-22-2019, 02:26 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,694
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Ahh. The said "glitch". Did Justin provide any hope for an improvement ?
Until then:
For live playing
- don't use multiple plugins that claim a nonzero PDC in a row
- use sort enough buffers.
-Michael
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08-22-2019, 02:29 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Just got a work around from "srdmusic" in another post......
On each track turn of PDC individually from each plugin calculate yourself what the PDC of them should add up to. Insert JS Time Adjustment Delay and set the additional delay amount to -X amount of spls which is what ever you calculated
Do a quick null test and you will see everything is lined up perfectly! with perfect low latency
Now reaper can do what every other daw does automatically!
Heres An Example.....
I had 256 global buffer setting and added 5 vsts to one track with a 8 samples of delay each, So total was 5 x 8 = 40 samples
set JS delay to -40 samples and all is good track has 256 PDC in performance monitor.
Without the workaround you get 1024 PDC in track with 768 of "unwanted" PDC
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08-22-2019, 02:32 PM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,694
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Nice workaround !
I think I will add a reference to this in the "Live" subforum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk
"unwanted" PDC
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Unwanted total mix audio output delay. The PDC (" compensation") itself is correct.
-Michael
Last edited by mschnell; 08-22-2019 at 09:42 PM.
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08-22-2019, 02:36 PM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
Known issue confirmed by Justin (REAPER adding too much latency, not optimized latency):
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when you say known issue do you confirmed in this quote from 10 years ago? or confirmed after recent posts?
Reason is Reaper is literally the perfect DAW for me apart from this. and If I know a fix is in the works even if its a year away from now I will definitely stick with it!
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08-22-2019, 02:37 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk
when you say known issue do you confirmed in this quote from 10 years ago? or confirmed after recent posts?
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Does it matter? Issue still exists ...
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08-22-2019, 02:40 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
Nice workaround !
I think I will add a reference to this in the "Live" subforum.
Unwanted total mix audio output delay. The PDC ("compensation") itself is correct.
-Michael
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Im shocked!! we are talking about exactly the same thing and you are 100% correct my friend!
we have come a long way together!
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08-22-2019, 02:42 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
Does it matter? Issue still exists ...
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well Justin acknowledging it 10 years ago and doing absolutely nothing about it for 10 years is a very different outcome from hes just been made aware again and is probably going to do something about it!
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08-22-2019, 02:43 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,480
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I guess it's just lower priority + maybe not that easy to fix ...
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08-22-2019, 02:47 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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does the scripting in reaper have access to latency the plugins are reporting on each track?
Reaper is such good daw im literally willing to try and make a script to get around this if its possible!
"edit"
checked it out theres no function in reapers API that lets you get a reported latency of a vst on a track so is a no go for automated script fix
Last edited by dissentuk; 08-22-2019 at 03:50 PM.
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08-22-2019, 02:50 PM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
I guess it's just lower priority + maybe not that easy to fix ...
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your probably right 2bh, its definitely a fundamental of how pdc is implemented in all other daws, so should be high priority I would have hoped
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08-22-2019, 03:06 PM
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#30
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct
Known issue confirmed by Justin (REAPER adding too much latency, not optimized latency):
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How did one person not experience this issue and posted a screenshot to me of there performance monitor showing correct optimised PDC? (see pic below)
This is the sole reason I move this to bug report from the feature request forum
Last edited by dissentuk; 08-22-2019 at 03:09 PM.
Reason: added pic
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08-22-2019, 09:47 PM
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#31
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk
Im shocked!! we are talking about exactly the same thing and you are 100% correct my friend! we have come a long way together!
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I am kind of critical about wording. The PDC (" Delay Compensation") is correct. So this is not a bug, but a shortcoming.
-Michael
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08-22-2019, 11:00 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
I am kind of critical about wording. The PDC (" Delay Compensation") is correct. So this is not a bug, but a shortcoming.
-Michael
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Yes i agree about the pdc itself being corrent.
With regard to being a bug or shortcoming why does it appear to be working fine for one person? If it was the same for everyone your right it would have to be a shortcoming. (See my post above for pic of this)
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08-23-2019, 08:21 AM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,694
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentuk
With regard to being a bug or shortcoming why does it appear to be working fine for one person?
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It depends on the way Reaper is used. See my comment here -> https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...59&postcount=4
-Michael
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11-17-2019, 02:25 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berlin
Posts: 151
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Wow, this is an absolut deal-breaker.
I usually have a lot of hardware playing live through my daw with plugins and hardware inserts.
I replaced my analog console with this workflow 10 years ago. With Logic it was never really an issue.
I think i can not switch to Reaper if there is no automatic workaround for this.
I can't do it by hand everytime i switch, add or remove a plugin. This is terrible!
How can this be a known issue for the past 10 years and not get fixed???
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11-17-2019, 04:10 PM
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#35
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,694
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The (AFAIK only) known issue in question is, that more PDC related delay then necessary is imposed to the whole project in case you use multiple PDC requesting VST plugins in a row in the same track.
If you want to do a setup for live playing, it's very likely that it's better to switch off PDC handling completely, as you supposedly want more to hear everything as soon as possible rather than to have a perfect alignment of multiple tracks.
Unfortunately you need to switch off PDC handling for each single track, as there is no global setting for this.
-Michael
Last edited by mschnell; 11-17-2019 at 11:57 PM.
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11-17-2019, 05:55 PM
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#36
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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At some point in the next 3 months we will likely address some of this (applying PDC at the FX chain level rather than at the FX instance level). Stay tuned!
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11-17-2019, 06:15 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Berlin
Posts: 151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
At some point in the next 3 months we will likely address some of this (applying PDC at the FX chain level rather than at the FX instance level). Stay tuned!
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This is awesome news.
Thanks Justin!
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11-18-2019, 12:00 AM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,694
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This is great !
But in this special case (live playing) IMHO this is not relevant, as switching off PDC handling is the better alternative, anyway. (Having a global project option for this would be advantageos.)
-Michael
Last edited by mschnell; 11-18-2019 at 12:18 AM.
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11-18-2019, 01:03 AM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
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Yes, having a global option for disabling PDC across all tracks would be good to have.
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11-18-2019, 09:02 AM
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#40
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Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 15,721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon
Yes, having a global option for disabling PDC across all tracks would be good to have.
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Noted A project setting, I imagine, would be the most appropriate.
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