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Old 04-14-2021, 09:35 AM   #1
Winko
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Default I ask about latency, editing issue, hardware, suggestions

Hi

I'm not a total newbie. I've been having some fun with sound editing back in the 90's, but I know like 1% of how sound editing looks like now and how to use Reaper. Hope you excuse me asking so much at once.







--- Latency
-------------------

Is using a virtual instrument instead of MIDI differs in terms of latency? I mean using your PC's keyboard. And can a 5$ cheap QWERTY keyboard affect it? Will I see an improvement when I connect a music keyboard or drum set through MIDI - MIDI-to-USB converter - PC?
I'd like to have no latency when creating, playing live, but also I'd like to be able to record it properly.
What "all track metering" checkbox does exactly?

I saw a youtuber saying you should toggle this (all track metering) to compromise between playback latency and recording.

Can different virtual instrument plugins have different playback latency? I think there's more latency in a free bass instrument I've installed, compared to others.

A modern PC has gigabytes of memory, so I understand the size of the sound files are not a problem, but does the quality or lenght matter? For example, if I load an hour long sound file as a virtual instrument. Would that affect latency in any way?
And if I insert a sound file into Reaper track, does it matter what type of file it was? I would assume it should uncompress everything when adding the file?

Is Asio4all inferior compared to "real" Asio? Maybe I should just use a retro PC with windows XP and audigy 2 for "proper" Asio? Or maybe it completetly doesn't matter? I'm afraid the topic is complicated, with various OSes, various motherboard vendors, USB controllers, APIs etc. etc.


Right now it says 6.6ms in my upper right corner of Reaper window


If I use 30 sounds as samples, each on a separate virtual instrument track, does that affect the latencies?

Does hardware configuration matter?
Would upgrading from overclocked 2600K ancient CPU to something like 10400f help?
Does the amount of cores and threads matter?







--- MIDI hardware and the interfaces
--------------------------------------

I've used to use Sound Blaster Live and SB Audigy 2 back in the days. How does the latency compare nowadays to that? Seems like it's difficult to achieve "no latency" in audio on modern PCs without hardware support as the old sound cards offered 20 years ago, although i only recently discovered Asio4all.
So, could someone please share some knowlege about it? MIDI latency, audio latency.
What do I need?
Any integrated audio will be good enough?
Maybe it's difficult and expensive to achieve the quality I knew from Live/Audigy2 cards and I should consider building up a retro PC? If I should get an interface, which ones are the cheapest ones which would be fine for a something like between beginner and semi-pro music production? So i won't have to buy again once I learn how to create music well. In case I will. Let's hope so

How about this MIDI box?
https://www.amazon.com/M-Audio-MIDIS.../dp/B001D5D454

and if I'd like to record how exactly my Yamaha keyboard sounds when i play it as stand-alone intrument, there's no other way than getting a good audio inferface, right?
I've read a bit. Focusrite Scarlett Solo would be first "good enough" according to many, but it's a bit expensive compared to others. Suggestions welcomed




Lastly, a question about editing in Reaper
When I try to just copy a segment, so midi actions are copied exactly the same,
I get this
https://gyazo.com/172668317d3f160f693f95ba5398a42a

(the downward and upward arrows)

this means when I double click on the track to edit the notes, I can only edit in one part of the selection if I want to edit the original and copied part at once.


Actually, one more thing. If I already have a yamaha keyboard and Roland electronic drum set, can I get the same control over Reaper as I would if I bought a physical hardware with pads, sliders, knobs etc? Maybe it's a matter or budget? I know absolutely nothing about the most modern hardware, and surely, it would be awesome to get some hardware, but maybe I'd like to spend like a hundred bucks instead of a thousand and maybe I don't need it if only live performance I'd ever do, would be while being alone and having fun. Absolutely no live performance with any audience will ever happen, that's for sure. I hope I can get everything under a few hundreds. I have yet to do some proper research in terms of which free and non-free plugins I should get.
This thread is already too long





Thank you in advance for any information
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Old 04-14-2021, 01:16 PM   #2
domzy
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when people say "MIDI latency", especially in relation to software instruments, they usually mean audio latency.
So no, the actual keyboard shouldn't make any difference, the latency will depend on your soundcard / PC.

Some virtual instruments can have more built-in latency than others, but this is quite rare in my experience - when it does occur it is usually due to either PDC (plugin delay compensation) or the nature of the sound / how it's been edited (some instruments have a slower attack than others or are not sampled properly)

most onboard sound these days is probably just as good / better than an old soundblaster.

asio4all is fine if you set it up correctly, but there is no real advantage to using it over WASAPI these days. The best solution is to get an audio interface with decent asio drivers though.

Regarding your MIDI item thing, you need to switch off "loop source" in item properties.

You'll probably get better answers if you ask your questions separately. It cam be a bit of a chore to read / reply to a multi-faceted post

Last edited by domzy; 04-15-2021 at 05:11 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 04-14-2021, 04:48 PM   #3
Winko
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"plugin delay compensation" - correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be a simple offset in terms of where the sample starts?
Let's ignore the attack and the nature of the sound sample. Can there be any differences? IDK, maybe there are multiple ways of how the virtual instrument works, maybe the animation affects that in some way, maybe the amount of processing calculations etc?

You wrote I should get something with decent ASIO drivers. Anything you could recommend?

About the latency - yes, I meant the total latency, so both input and output. Thing is I'm far from perfect in holding on the beat. I think it would be less of a problem for someone who's many levels above me in terms of musical abilities. I'll also be trying some tricky stuff, with regular speech being adopted as instruments, and this can have the beat in weird places. Might require additional compensation when playing it, so I'd really want to get the least latency possible. As it is, I can clearly see a struggle where i don't usually struggle using just instruments. I can see the latency is affecting my ability to stay in the rhytm.


If it's possible, I could compromise on sound quality in the live playback, as long as it allows me to get "no latency" mode and as long as the rendered mix sound is clear of the compromised stuff. Should be doable.

I have so many more questions
How about mixing rate? Back in my days 16bit 44-48kHz was "great" quality, but now I've seen some people saying 24bit 96kHz are necessary for some modern effects.
Then about the PC - I've seen a discussion where someone reported a drastic latency increase after applying some vulnerability patches (Spectre, Meltdown etc.) or something like this.

the old cards were using PCI, which seems to have used some better (latency wise) communication methods than PCI-E. The hardware acceleration allowed for zero-latency sound effects applied in real-time. With a good microphone, the recording quality was also surprisingly good (but you had to hunt for the best Audigy 2 revision and model, and use a microphone which would "talk well" to the card. I had a superb combination after trying a few mics.

I wonder how this compares to modern stuff. In terms of using the MIDI instruments with PC acting as real-time soundbank and in terms of the effects. Last time i had a few SB Live's or Audigy's, I got rid of them for like 10-15 bucks. Quick research to find a hardware, stand-alone equivalent, resulted in 300-400€ hardware. Would be funny if modern PCs couldn't match 20 year old tech in anything, but life is full or surprises, so I keep open minded.

Last edited by Winko; 04-14-2021 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 04-15-2021, 03:32 PM   #4
domzy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winko View Post
"plugin delay compensation" - correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be a simple offset in terms of where the sample starts?
some plugins introduce latency (usually limiters, maximisers etc.), which Reaper automatically compensates for on playback by delaying everything else to match it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winko View Post
Let's ignore the attack and the nature of the sound sample. Can there be any differences? IDK, maybe there are multiple ways of how the virtual instrument works, maybe the animation affects that in some way, maybe the amount of processing calculations etc?
Yes, some VSTi plugins introduce extra latency, but not many (in my experience)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winko View Post
You wrote I should get something with decent ASIO drivers. Anything you could recommend?
the only brand i'd actively recommend would be RME

Last edited by domzy; 04-15-2021 at 05:16 PM. Reason: clarity
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