Old 11-01-2019, 09:32 AM   #241
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Something that is often overlooked is that Apple make hardware. In my job I deal with over 60 Macs and it is well recognized by management that Macs last longer and require significantly less maintenance. They last. They look good. They work well. They are the industry standard. They are more expensive initially but given the amount of flawless hours you get out of them it is worth it.
I would agree that that used to be the case but Apple is using all the same parts as everyone else. They haven't made a workstation class system in nearly a decade and their "pro" models of iMac and Macbook Pro suffer from thermal throttling and have/will have GPU issues after a few years of heave usage because of poor ventilation in their design.

The upcoming Mac Pro will be different but right from the start, it's outdated hardware. Vega is dead. Their trash can Mac Pro had the same issues. A 2013 computer had a 2011 processor and 2011 processor socket.

More importantly.... anyone running Catalina in a pro-audio video system? No. Updating the OS puts you out of work. That's the kind of windows nonsense that used to occur that made people switch to Mac OS. Now it's the other way around.

Don't get me wrong, I might switch back to Mac in the future. I was a fan boy for 20 years but currently I don't see an advantage to being on Mac.
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Old 11-02-2019, 06:11 AM   #242
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The upcoming Mac Pro will be different but right from the start, it's outdated hardware. Vega is dead. Their trash can Mac Pro had the same issues. A 2013 computer had a 2011 processor and 2011 processor socket.
This part of the argument has never made sense to me. Why should it matter if hardware is "outdated?" If it does the job and does it efficiently enough for your purposes, that's what matters, and it's hard to imagine you'd lose work to the competition if your files take 10 seconds longer to render. What you're buying with the Mac Pro is the operating system and the integrated package, the so-called "walled garden" that ensures everything works together and you don't spend hours of your time troubleshooting incompatibilities.

There are plenty of valid reasons to go with Windows instead of Mac, but I don't think this is one of them. I totally agree about Catalina, though (speaking of incompatibilities)...I'm using it on my test machine but for my production computer I'll wait a few years to upgrade, if ever. Ultimately I'm moving to Linux (which I've used for years), but for now the Mac platform still works well for me.

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Old 11-02-2019, 08:16 AM   #243
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earlier in this thread I complained about I cannon find a Thunderbolt-enabled (and really working) laptop under 1.5kg other than Mac.

I've found one since. ThinkPad X1 Carbon 6th gen works for me yet.
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Old 11-02-2019, 09:06 AM   #244
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This part of the argument has never made sense to me. Why should it matter if hardware is "outdated?" If it does the job and does it efficiently enough for your purposes, that's what matters, and it's hard to imagine you'd lose work to the competition if your files take 10 seconds longer to render. What you're buying with the Mac Pro is the operating system and the integrated package, the so-called "walled garden" that ensures everything works together and you don't spend hours of your time troubleshooting incompatibilities.

There are plenty of valid reasons to go with Windows instead of Mac, but I don't think this is one of them. I totally agree about Catalina, though (speaking of incompatibilities)...I'm using it on my test machine but for my production computer I'll wait a few years to upgrade, if ever. Ultimately I'm moving to Linux (which I've used for years), but for now the Mac platform still works well for me.
I understand. If your employees are more efficient with MacOS... then run Mac computers. I just don't think there's any stability or compatibility advantages on Apple products like there used to be. It's all the same thing. All of their parts are standard PC parts.

As for outdated hardware... it certainly matters to some degree. You wouldn't go out and buy a PowerPC Mac for the price of a new MacPro because it's more stable.

A 15% performance increase in a GPU is significant. If you're running a render farm, that means every 7th day is free compared to the alternative.

The same stands for CPU...Personally, if my choice is spending $20k on a Mac Pro vs a $10k on a Threadripper 3 PC it's a no-brainer. That's a significant amount of money to get half the processing performance. But I build my own workstations and servers now. Obviously with Apple that's not an option but I certainly never questioned their build quality, but the reliability of those parts (with the exception of poor thermal designs/builds) is the same in PC or Mac.... it's the same thing.
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Old 11-02-2019, 09:34 AM   #245
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I just don't think there's any stability or compatibility advantages on Apple products like there used to be. It's all the same thing. All of their parts are standard PC parts.
Yes, that's a good point. I've never bought Macs because of their hardware specs, but despite it: the point for me has always been the operating system, which is still more stable and reliable for me than Windows and thus allows me to be more productive.

I refuse to buy Mac laptops because they're not user-upgradeable or repairable; same was true for recent desktops until the soon-to-be-released Mac Pro but at least the desktops typically last a long time so I can justify it (I'm using Mac desktops from 2013 and 2014, running the latest version of DaVinci Resolve on the Mac Pro "trashcan," and everything's very smooth and responsive).
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Old 11-04-2019, 12:28 AM   #246
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macos is more reliable, because it's designed for specific hardware, but that's about it.
I wanted to upgrade my PC next year, because mine is already 6-7 years old, but i just replaced videocard with more powerful and added 8Gb of RAM, i'll be fine for 3-4 years more))
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Old 11-06-2019, 09:59 AM   #247
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If i'm lucky and have the right components let's say, can I just buy the OS and try it/use it simply or is it not that simple?
Is it "allowed" by Apple if I succeed to install it on a non Mac if I bought the OS.
Hmm..
Mac-world is alien to me, sorry for my ignorance.
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Old 11-06-2019, 11:16 AM   #248
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Windows puts every driver in the engine bay of the car.
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Old 11-06-2019, 12:19 PM   #249
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If i'm lucky and have the right components let's say, can I just buy the OS and try it/use it simply or is it not that simple?
Is it "allowed" by Apple if I succeed to install it on a non Mac if I bought the OS.
Hmm..
Mac-world is alien to me, sorry for my ignorance.
The OS is free. The license doesn't permit installing on anything else than Apple hardware, but you can run it virtualised without breaking the license, as long as you virtualise it on Apple hardware.

There is, however an open source version of it, called Darwin. Doesn't have the same gui, but it's pretty much the same under the hood.

https://github.com/puredarwin

https://opensource.apple.com/
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Old 11-06-2019, 07:14 PM   #250
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There is, however an open source version of it, called Darwin. Doesn't have the same gui, but it's pretty much the same under the hood.
It's completely useless for running existing macOs softwares like Reaper, though.
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Old 11-07-2019, 08:56 AM   #251
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You could run Macos on Linux, with QEMU:

https://github.com/foxlet/macOS-Simple-KVM

Of course, not permitted by Apple's license, but runs Reaper...
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:30 AM   #252
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Guess no real MacOS for me then.

30-thousands years ago (way before the discovery of coffee) I (slight recall) got a free OSX "something" CD with a computer magazine, but I was even more clueless back then, can you believe it? (don't answer) :P
So, that was a macOS huh? so by principle, maby I Hhhave touched a macOS?

A quick look at APPLE iMac (2019) and its spec/the 19.999 Kronor one, eum eum? really? the 5K retina must be reaeaelly something?

I can live with 4K fine though (sweet spot) but I have locked myself in to the 21:9 corner because I simply love it! even if the res is lower (for now) hopefully we will get 21:9 in 4K+ (120Hz+) before we populate Mars?

On Linux, I am really not thinking about Mac or Windows as far as the environment & *cencored/beep* is concerned, Linux is not stopping it seems.
Hope Linux popularity curve will be a hockey stick if I may go off topic on purpose.

Thanks people's!
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:40 AM   #253
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Well, there's the "Hackintosh" approach. I haven't done this yet... I just know it exists. The OSX installers whitelist the machines Apple wants to allow you to install on and everything else is denied. That's how they're trying to stop you from installing some of the newer versions of OSX on some of the older pro machines with compatible hardware. I think the deal is to alter something in the EFI firmware to make the machine appear to identify as a whitelisted Mac.

3rd party installer fixes are becoming a thing now too. I believe the Dosdude1 patched OSX installers remove the "compatibility check" against that whitelist. These patched versions are aimed at the compatible blacklisted Macs and some of the older genuinely incompatible Macs but maybe could be useful for going 'Hackintosh'?
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:36 AM   #254
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Does one not get the (OS not genuine) DRM/updates in the eye sooner or later being online with that thing?
No way i'm messing with Gene Hackman, no way! I tell yah.
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Old 11-08-2019, 02:17 AM   #255
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The Hackintosh scene is pretty strong right now, probably due to it being easier than ever and a wide range of hardware that will work in Mac OS. Well when I say wide, not huge but there's more than enough for most people's applications. You have a bootloader called Clover and there's a newer one called Opencore. Clover loads from your EFI partition via a Bios boot entry. Then you can boot into Mac OS or Win/Linux. Providing you do a vanilla install which is essentially as clean as you can get, you can update your system via normal AppStore updates. However, there is a chance things can break so it's obviously a good idea not to update straight away. Like with any system or OS.
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Old 11-08-2019, 05:10 AM   #256
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I was guessing that you have something on a USB pen and "simply" boot off that like the USB pen IS, the "BIOS" kinda thing and that has to be inserted all the time like some dongle?

I have "matured" in some areas i'm afraid over time (except humor & stuff) so I stay away from thingies i'm not allowed/recommended to do, speaking for myself.

Just as with Intel, Amd, Nvidia, it's good if we have Apple, Microsoft, Linux keeping eachother "alert/stimulated/inspired-thingie" but Apple is all-in or nothing so..kinda
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Old 11-08-2019, 07:12 AM   #257
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I was guessing that you have something on a USB pen and "simply" boot off that like the USB pen IS,
No, but you can do it that way if you want to.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:33 AM   #258
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SchmajjL is not gonna do it though.

But I was thinking, if Mac is so famous for being good for music fast and all that, well, so is Linux! maby macOS is/was Linux, I would not fall of my chair if that is the case since Linux with native software works superbly'ness! no wonder macOS is a yippie! for music if that thing even have more software makers supporting it for music.

https://www.lifewire.com/mac-os-x-is...bution-2204744
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:50 AM   #259
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No, but you can do it that way if you want to.
It's also a way to boot your system if you change something and then you can't boot in Mac OS, it's basically a boot backup option to have a USB version.
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Old 11-08-2019, 08:58 AM   #260
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Having a few hard drives around with bootable systems is just common sense. Like spare keys. Having a whole computer turn into a big ol paperweight because you didn't have a spare drive lying around to boot it up is just silly.
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:05 AM   #261
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I have two with something Linux, so good to have should something start schooby doo'ing..
But hey, are you saying this macOS backup thing would allow one to have a look, without installing anything just as LiveUSB 'ala Linux and I would not get Apples thrown at me?
With my PC hardware, I have no business installing or having a look if their license thing is so grumpy?
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Old 11-08-2019, 09:34 AM   #262
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I have two with something Linux, so good to have should something start schooby doo'ing..
But hey, are you saying this macOS backup thing would allow one to have a look, without installing anything just as LiveUSB 'ala Linux and I would not get Apples thrown at me?
With my PC hardware, I have no business installing or having a look if their license thing is so grumpy?
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You can make a live install for OSX just like Linux. That's actually how the USB installer image and the recovery image work.

My knowledge with authoring live OS installs and the Unix nuts and bolts of OSX and Linux is at "knows enough to be dangerous" level at best though. I haven't been authoring my own custom live OSX installs.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:01 AM   #263
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Ah, just like Linux huh?
Smells like (my case) I should not go there, just have to have a talk with my curiosity to agree with me, stubborn as heck that thing.

Now i'm thinking how far off are the Mac drivers from a Linux one..
Must resist off topic'ness.. a-aah!

Thanks though.
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Old 11-08-2019, 12:04 PM   #264
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I mean, it's a live install in the same way that a Linux live install is a live install. Don't know what little bit Apple decided to be 'different' about. You can bet there's something...

Linux looks like the Unix-looking file system in OSX at a glance at least so the migration from OSX to Linux for the likes of me looks not so bad. That's the angle I'm looking at that from.
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Old 11-09-2019, 10:09 AM   #265
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I would represent the Windows to Linux group though.

Just this link I bet collect something, can't win.. on any OS.. *whine..*
I almost stopped caring relative to my previous caring'ness.. what 'evs..
If you know Apples then I take your word for it, I just want UI people to stop the full 100% white BG in my eye.. and.. and..

https://itsfoss.com/macos-like-linux-distros/
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Old 11-11-2019, 03:06 AM   #266
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I bought one of the last REAL Mac MINI servers a while back & in terms of Mac perfornace & spec it STILL kicks the ass of the current bunch of household appliances they are selling. IF you want to try a Mac, I would recommend something from the upper end 2011 - 2012 stuff. Mine is a solid aluminium bodied jobber with 2 drive slots, memory upgradable to 16gb & an i7 quad core cpu, even if it is "only" a 2.0, plus a thunderbolt interface & HDMI but there are versions out there that go up to a 2.6 afaik.

FWIW it does run smoothly and that`s on OSX Mavericks. I could update it to the latest OS version but then Logic Pr0 9 and my Focusrite Liquidmix 32 would not want to work any more.

And NO I dont use Reaper on it, even though it worked fine once installed when I first bought the Mac. To me, they are all just computers. Some run better than others.

Years ago I used OS9/OSK which was a Microware OS, running on 6800 series cpus, so it all got a bit confusing when Apple decided to cal their OS OS9 as well.
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Old 11-11-2019, 08:05 AM   #267
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Think we are supposed to say Whips!
Looks like Mac fans are getting a Mac "Pro as a choice soon'ish, not sure how the price/performance ratio will be other than guessing, it will be Apple price probably? so, a House or a Mac, let me think.. hmm

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Could just run (take the buss) to ElGiganten and have a look, spend little time on a Mac and see for myself..
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Old 11-14-2019, 01:56 PM   #268
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Could just run (take the buss) to ElGiganten and have a look, spend little time on a Mac and see for myself..
Now you are starting to use that grey squidgy stuff between your ears. It matters not what others say (I guess that also includes me), most have an agenda and many just like to post rubbish because they like posting. FWIW my experience as an IT specialist since 1979 is that I wish I had been able to do more on Mac many years ago. I currently have 2 G4 Macs (one Mirror Door), one Mac Mini, one MacBook Pro (i9, 32Gb), 2 27" iMacs (one Mid-2011, one 2017 Retina 5K) and a couple of iPad Minis. Just to give you a flavour, I am writing this on the iMac 2017 listening to audio from Andy Pickford (Dude!) through a Saffire Pro 40 (Firewire) which still works connected via a FireWire to Thunderbolt2 adapter connected to a Thunderbolt 2 to Thunderbolt 3 adapter connected to the iMac. I run Reaper on it through the Pro 40 and it is a delight compared to the Sonar I used to run on Windows and I know because I have run Sonar since before it was even Sonar. I do wish Sonar had made it to Mac, though (properly).

In every, repeat EVERY single instance I have had a better and more pleasant user and operator experience on the Mac's than I have EVER had with Windows which I was fortunately able to stop using a couple of years ago after the demise of Windows 7 Pro.

There is a lot of good hardware out there and I have had to use some in my day job, I mention Lenovo and Alienware specifically but they are all and I mean ALL shackled by Windows so while some here might whinge about the 'current' Apple hardware and how 'good it used to be' let me tell you it is still good (my 2017 iMac is extremely superior to my mid-2011 iMac but I love it still and it connects via a Thunderbolt2 to Thunderbolt3 adapter as a slave screen natively - brilliant!) and if you feel you are paying a premium for a Mac - well - you ARE! It is, though, repaid many times over in the time you will not waste continually trying to keep your system stable, upgraded, virus-free and driver enabled.

On a specific note - laptop batteries are not guaranteed beyond about three years although many do last longer. I replaced the battery in my Mid-2012 laptop without much fuss for GBP 48 so don't be afraid of one. You can also upgrade to an SSD in one which is a major performance boost as I found out when I did it.

So - simple decision - do you want to spend time fighting Windows or making music? The answer to that question will give you the clue that you seem to need. Of course, if you simply can't afford Mac then you are on your own. PC architecture with Linux is of course an option and although I am not a great fan I do love Unix to bits (MacOs is a derivative of the original Unix) so it gets a 'thumbs-up' from me and I have a passing liking for Suse Linux but to me it seems not as comfortable a place to be as MacOs.

Good luck with your choice whatever it be, I am glad to have found Reaper and don't miss Sonar any more.

Final note to any who would perhaps take issue with some of my comments - don't even bother to reply unless you have personally installed Windows 3.1 from diskettes and got it to work. We'll leave CP/M for the hard-core amongst us but that wasn't a great OS for music!
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