Old 02-12-2018, 01:42 PM   #41
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I'm pretty sure it's impossible to setup ReaSurround the way you want. I've spent many hours over the past 5 or 6 six years futzing with the settings in ReaSurround, trying to make it behave like a "normal" surround panner only to give up in frustration every time after running into all the same problems you described.

I would recommend you take a look at Iosono's Anymix Pro VST plugin (http://www.iosono-sound.com/vstaax-plug-ins/), it does exactly what you need. It's a little pricey and I don't love the UI, but it's the only thing I've found that will actually make surround panning work in Reaper. I know there at least a couple of us on these forums who are using it.
I was tempted by this one : UM225 / UM226 https://www.waves.com/plugins/um225-um226
Much cheaper (39$) than you Anymix Pro ($285.00)...
Anyone have tried it?
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:01 PM   #42
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I was tempted by this one : UM225 / UM226 https://www.waves.com/plugins/um225-um226
Much cheaper (39$) than you Anymix Pro ($285.00)...
Anyone have tried it?
It looks like this is just an upmixer not a panner. It will take a stereo signal and convert it to surround by synthesizing the center and rear channels using some DSP trickery, but it won't let you place mono and stereo sounds at specific spots in the sound field the way Anymix does. Anymix does also have the ability to upmix, but that's not what I use it for.
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:30 PM   #43
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It looks like this is just an upmixer not a panner. It will take a stereo signal and convert it to surround by synthesizing the center and rear channels using some DSP trickery, but it won't let you place mono and stereo sounds at specific spots in the sound field the way Anymix does. Anymix does also have the ability to upmix, but that's not what I use it for.
I see ok thank you!
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Old 02-24-2018, 11:34 AM   #44
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Default The need for a surround panner in the track is more important now than ever!!

Please developers!!! Pls give us an integrated surround panner. .. This is a video that I posted in another thread. Here I explain why an integrated surround panner would save so much time for all post users..

https://youtu.be/vipzRTyCIPE

With all those cool features... Reaper is amazing...

If you guys could just put together a surround panner in the track it would be a killer deal for all film post and game audio users... I would like to know what is actually the advantage of having the surround panner as a plugin... Pls...
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:50 PM   #45
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For anyone willing to experiment a little, you could try doing all your panning in Ambisonic format. You can take any source (mono or stereo most often), upmix it to Ambisonic format, pan it using the extremely flexible and powerful tools freely available in the ATK for REAPER and send your panned outputs to a 5.1 or 7.1 Ambisonic decoder which then goes to your regular master and interface outputs.

I've been mixing everything in Ambisonic format now for some time and the panning options are far beyond anything else I've seen and used in REAPER to date.
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:52 PM   #46
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The Ambisonic toolkit for REAPER can be found here....
http://www.ambisonictoolkit.net/download/reaper/
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Old 02-24-2018, 01:58 PM   #47
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Bruce Wiggins also has some excellent free Ambisonic decoders that can decode to ITU 5.1 format and other formats here.....

https://www.brucewiggins.co.uk/?page_id=78
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Old 02-24-2018, 02:04 PM   #48
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Typical workflow using Ambisonics to do your panning would be quite straight forward.

Add the Ambisonic panner in the last FX slot on a given track and turn off the master output for that track.
Do the same for all other tracks you want to pan.
Bus them to a track with the Ambisonic decoder.
Feed the output of the decoder bus to your surround master (you can use these as stem tracks too).
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Old 02-25-2018, 09:26 AM   #49
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Try the JS Surround panner.
Simple. Works. I don't like the ReaSurround panner either.
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Old 02-25-2018, 12:49 PM   #50
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Those are all plugin options.

I suppose one has to wonder why we have at least three different stereo panners built in and nothing to switch to for more channels.

Why were so many stereo panners included in the first place ? How many people are using the different panners ? How many would choose to use a bult-in 3/5/7.1 panner , if they ever had that choice ? A similar number of users that use non-default stereo panners ?

How can we know ?
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Old 02-25-2018, 12:54 PM   #51
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Those are all plugin options.

I suppose one has to wonder why we have at least three different stereo panners built in and nothing to switch to for more channels.

Why were so many stereo panners included in the first place ? How many people are using the different panners ? How many would choose to use a bult-in 3/5/7.1 panner , if they ever had that choice ? A similar number of users that use non-default stereo panners ?

How can we know ?
To be perfectly honest, even if surround panners were added natively to tracks, I would most likely not be using them very often. Now that I've moved over to Ambisonics, the benefits over traditional mixing are too great to go back from. The results are so much more natural even when an Ambisonic mix is decoded to 5.1. You're basically producing a 5.1 sound field rather than a simple panned mix.

Give it a shot. I reckon you'll be pleasantly surprised and wonder why you waited!


Disclaimer, I'm certainly not against adding native surround panners to REAPER though. I support that request.
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Old 02-25-2018, 04:25 PM   #52
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Try the JS Surround panner.
Simple. Works. I don't like the ReaSurround panner either.
Do you mean this one in this shot (JS Surround Pan 2)?:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y76c79txre...n2_CR.png?dl=0

For 5.1 this would be better than ReaSurround, but I rarely work under 7.1 anymore.

I do find an issue as also seen in the screenshot, where when panning between the center and either L or R, where it bleeds back into the opposite channel instead of just between the center and whatever channel you're panning toward. In the screenshot example the panning puck is right between center and right, but the (blue output) meters show signal bleeding back into the Left. It should be equal values in the center and right only with the puck in that position.
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Old 02-26-2018, 05:18 AM   #53
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In other words, what would be great, would be a little panner box, as in Media Composer (but without all the annoying bugs that infest MC that make it send the audio to exactly where you don't want it to be!)



By choosing to make a project 5.1 or 7.1 such a little box could replace the existing pan button.

It would however only be of use, as long as one can switch each output on and off for each track, so (for example) dialogue for a 5.1 can be sent to the centre only and have nothing going to L or R.
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Old 02-26-2018, 05:50 AM   #54
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Please feel free to suggest some specific feature changes or additions to ReaSurround. For example, the specific example in the first post. Within the context of how ReaSurround works, what changes would let it support what you need to do?
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Old 02-26-2018, 06:52 AM   #55
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Well, how about a little box that replaces the pan button and shows where the audio object is located. On clicking the pan box, the full ReaSurround panel opens up for in-depth adjustment!
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Old 02-26-2018, 07:42 AM   #56
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Click the box and the panner plugin you have selected in Preferences (default ReaSurround) opens.

This is what Protools did if I remember right. (The box expanding part. Not the ability to use a different plugin of course.)
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Old 02-26-2018, 07:44 AM   #57
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I was thinking of something like, for example, an "isolate speakers" type of preset like this for 7.1. This would let you pan exclusively across the front without bleeding into the sides or back, pan across the sides without bleeding into the front center, pan left to right without bleeding into the front or back, and so on.


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Old 02-26-2018, 07:54 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I was thinking of something like, for example, an "isolate speakers" type of preset like this for 7.1. This would let you pan exclusively across the front without bleeding into the sides or back, pan across the sides without bleeding into the front center, pan left to right without bleeding into the front or back, and so on.
Ah ! Non circular influences zones will be of extreme value for elevation !
Is this a work in progress for a future version ?

Otherwise, you can do something like this :

But don't forget to check "Normalize multichannel gain".
Schwa : I have never understood while it is "deprecated" since it is the only way to be sure to have constant power...
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Old 02-26-2018, 07:58 AM   #59
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That does not support panning across the front three speakers with a single automated control though, right? We are totally open to whatever improvements make sense, but we do need some guidance from expert users as to what is needed.

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I have never understood while it is "deprecated" since it is the only way to be sure to have constant power...
It really shouldn't be marked "deprecated," I'll remove that word for the next build.
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Old 02-26-2018, 08:01 AM   #60
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The problem for post work is if you have things flying around your head all at the same time. Think of a shoot out or war-time bombs falling, so you need to be able to see different panning events all happening at the same time.

Yes, speakers need to be capable of being isolated, so that audio events (e.g. birdsong only in the rear and dialogue only in the centre, whilst Foleys are everywhere) but one needs to be able to see what is going where for many tracks at once!

As powerful and flexible as ReaSurround is, it is the GUI that is the bottleneck. Time is money and with c.a. 10,000 audio events in the average movie, having to open and close FX windows is not really a viable way to work.

The ability to use stretch marks on the time-line without having to open anything is a real advantage for audio FX and ADR work that Reaper has over everything else out there. I have 'place SM at mouse pointer position' on the letter Q and syncing up FX and ADR is just a dream. Having a surround panner on the channel strip would mean that all audio work before mastering could be done on the one system!
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Old 02-26-2018, 08:05 AM   #61
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Another possibility would be adding arrangement-specific automatable parameters to the "selected inputs" dropdown for each pair of speakers. For example 7.1 could support "pan front left/front center", "pan front center/front right", "pan front left/front right", "pan front left/center left", and so on.
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Old 02-26-2018, 08:07 AM   #62
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THaving a surround panner on the channel strip would mean that all audio work before mastering could be done on the one system!
OK, what would that surround panner look like for simplicity? Just a set of knobs for channel X gain into channel Y?

If anything much more complex than that, it would make more sense to set up, or we could provide as a default, reasurround inserted on a track and certain parameters assigned as track knobs. Like my previous example, you could have knobs on the track control panel for "pan front left/front center", etc. You can do something like this already:


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Old 02-26-2018, 08:10 AM   #63
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Please feel free to suggest some specific feature changes or additions to ReaSurround. For example, the specific example in the first post. Within the context of how ReaSurround works, what changes would let it support what you need to do?
In 2D we can always find some solutions, but "Within the context of how it works" the most difficult part is the confusion that occurs with the graphic view when the systems uses elevation with more speakers and inputs.
If improvements can be done without changing its spatialization engine and features, it can be with a double view Top/Front and with some additionnal buttons together the Mute/Solo ones to Show/Hide objects.

But ideally, a DBAP engine would help a lot for standard surround layouts...
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Old 02-26-2018, 09:19 AM   #64
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OK, what would that surround panner look like for simplicity? Just a set of knobs for channel X gain into channel Y?
I am sitting in front of a 60-frame Amek desk right now, that has one knob for L-R pan on each channel strip and one for Front-Rear pan, combined with routing buttons at the top of the strip that switch on and off the six outputs for 5.1 (or 4.0, 7.1, etc.) and that is one way to go. At least it's simple and effective! There is definitely enough space for a second knob on the Reaper channel trip.

But in my ideal world, there would be a tiny window that allows the user to move the audio object anywhere in the 2D space, similar to the Media Composer image above. Placing the object all the way to the front and in the middle, would allow the audio to only route to the C channel. Placing it in the centre of the field would allow the audio to come out of all five channels equally - and so on!

Automating moves could be done, using the envelope pan line.
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Old 02-26-2018, 09:49 AM   #65
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Please feel free to suggest some specific feature changes or additions to ReaSurround. For example, the specific example in the first post. Within the context of how ReaSurround works, what changes would let it support what you need to do?
One thing that I failed to mention...

One very good feature about the Pro Tools, and most other panners, is that there is a corner. That might sound silly, but mixing in the box is often with a mouse or trackball and keeping our eyes on screen is hard enough.

Right now Reasurround lets us move the "puck" way off screen, and therefore passing the isolated sweet spots.

I know... "mix with your ears", but every little bit helps. One less thing to think about. Hardware joysticks have physical limits.

One of the better solutions for 7.1 is Iosono Anymmix Pro, but its a circle. For me anyway, the corners of the box are really helpful.
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Old 02-26-2018, 11:43 AM   #66
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One thing that I failed to mention...

One very good feature about the Pro Tools, and most other panners, is that there is a corner. That might sound silly, but mixing in the box is often with a mouse or trackball and keeping our eyes on screen is hard enough.

Right now Reasurround lets us move the "puck" way off screen, and therefore passing the isolated sweet spots.
By coincidence I am right now in the middle of making a surround panner that behaves exactly like the protools one. Me and vijay spent some time reverse engineering it's behaviour, pan laws etc to make sure it will work exactly as expected.

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Old 02-26-2018, 11:57 AM   #67
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By coincidence I am right now in the middle of making a surround panner that behaves exactly like the protools one. Me and vijay spent some time reverse engineering it's behaviour, pan laws etc to make sure it will work exactly as expected.

Nice!
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Old 02-26-2018, 11:59 AM   #68
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By coincidence I am right now in the middle of making a surround panner that behaves exactly like the protools one. Me and vijay spent some time reverse engineering it's behaviour, pan laws etc to make sure it will work exactly as expected.

Awesome! Any idea when it might be available?
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:10 PM   #69
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Please feel free to suggest some specific feature changes or additions to ReaSurround. For example, the specific example in the first post. Within the context of how ReaSurround works, what changes would let it support what you need to do?
Regarding ReaSurround changes - these are all for the individual channel gain sliders/faders within ReaSurround:

- a display for the sliders showing where their gain is set.
- ability to return the gain to null on the individual sliders.
- an entry box to type the values. Right now if one of those sliders gets bumped I have no idea how to return it to null.
- a lock for those sliders so they don't get bumped.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:10 PM   #70
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Awesome! Any idea when it might be available?
It's hard to tell as I'm doing it inbetween other things when I've got some spare time.

Hopefully in a few weeks. The DSP isn't so hard as have already worked out the required behaviour & maths for that already. It's prototyping a nice UI that is being time consuming.

However, if schwa is thinking of building a new native panner instead with same behaviour, then I should probably stop, as it will be wasted work I could put to use elsewhere.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:12 PM   #71
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By coincidence I am right now in the middle of making a surround panner that behaves exactly like the protools one. Me and vijay spent some time reverse engineering it's behaviour, pan laws etc to make sure it will work exactly as expected.
Any chance that clicking on the center "speaker" sets the puck to exactly center? Thats a great feature for any of the channels but most definitely for the center.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:21 PM   #72
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Any chance that clicking on the center "speaker" sets the puck to exactly center? Thats a great feature for any of the channels but most definitely for the center.
Yes in mono mode the single puck will snap to that. In stereo mode two pucks will snap to FL/FR. You will be able to mute/solo all pucks/speakers with mouse modifiers etc. It will be very similar to the PT panner with the exception of having all pucks on the same grid rather than two grids for stereo, and a few extra features eventually. Also various puck mirroring/linking modes and rotation ability.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:24 PM   #73
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Some workflow observations. Reaper is not going to work with joysticks as well as film consoles(Harrison MPC-D series for example), Avid Icon series or the S5 for example.

Motorized joysticks don't grow on trees, so let's look at the alternatives that Reaper users are likely to use, and yes I'm speculating about other folks, but not about myself. Feel free to throw up ideas.

OSC for the 2D space. Lemur should be fine for this because of its fine-grained control over momentum of objects. Maybe even do a fat slider for height, for the Atmos folks.

Other parameters go on to good midi(hardware) or OSC faders. This is all to support hands-on control.

The only thing I select with the mouse is either a track or the position in the timeline. And it won't be parameter knobs on the track either. That's ok for feedback, though I seriously doubt I'll keep a TCP height around that lets me see those knobs. That's what my custom layout for the MCP is for, though I'm not quite happy coloured knobs(not text!) was never considered for even easier targeting for either monitoring or mouse control.

Maybe toss in some methods for easy automation transfers from stereo to whatever-comes-next for our friend vjay. He is absolutely not alone in getting pre-panned material from editors. In fact we used to mess around with cross-fading between mono tracks for this purpose. But why waste tracks when this is/can be even better.

The fastest ways to mix are direct grabs for control. Keep that in mind with the design. I'll certainly put it through its paces.

Few mixers will be using the GUI though.

I'll be using OSC parameters that I expect end up in corners basically. I need to easily control whether the back gets anything, whether the centre gets everything more or less, whether I stay with the L/R/Ls/Rs speakers ONLY.

The height-using folks will have a lot of fun things they want to control.
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Old 02-26-2018, 12:35 PM   #74
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We can add corners and also a DBAP mode as options, those should be fairly straightforward.

A channel strip mini-UI I think is a secondary thing that we can think about after we get the ReaSurround UI to where it would be useful in a mini version.





Also, I'd never discourage anyone from making cool plugins, so mrlimbic please don't put your work aside just because we're looking at ReaSurround improvements.
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Old 02-26-2018, 03:00 PM   #75
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Great that improvements are on the way.

Please don't forget when designing panning elements are refined, that some of us users are working in octophonic for installation work.
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Old 02-26-2018, 03:07 PM   #76
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The fastest ways to mix are direct grabs for control. Keep that in mind with the design. I'll certainly put it through its paces.

Few mixers will be using the GUI though.
Agreed. I come from predominantly the design/editing part of the flow, and even there, the less GUI interaction the better.

In PT I actually pan mostly using Artist Mix faders. In recent Eucon changes they've made this worse.

I did a couple of shows where I used Cargo Cult's Spanner as my track panner, using the Artist Mix to have the Spanner plugin follow track selection (this was soooooo great), and the iPad app as a "joystick".

Dynamically following track selection was a huge step forward already. That's worth throwing in here as well. There may be ways of doing this that I don't currently do already.
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Old 02-26-2018, 03:13 PM   #77
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Quote:
I was thinking of something like, for example



^Ohh--yaaay geometric shapes- and eggs too-- 1 day cockos must also reaveal the "hidden" part of the 'credits'. ty.
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Old 02-26-2018, 05:22 PM   #78
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i too very much appreciate the attention here to reasurround but let's also not forget backwards compatibility. i constantly have to go back to archived material and it could be problematic to lose existing setups and behaviors for which workarounds are built into those archived projects.
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Old 02-26-2018, 05:39 PM   #79
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let's also not forget backwards compatibility.
^Good point-but is it not wiser for cockos to keep moving foward>>>>>>>-instead of back?<<<<< just use a stable older .version that does your old projects as they once did..?
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Old 02-26-2018, 05:58 PM   #80
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easy for you to say () but i'd be very upset if i lost all of my past work. my workflow involves use of elements as old as 60 years so my perspective on time is a long one. using an older version of the software is a possibility but at some point the os also obsoletes the app. i just want to be able to maintain access to the original work for as long as is practical. ultimately, though, that's what stems are for.
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