Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > REAPER General Discussion Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-23-2018, 01:08 AM   #1
kalin_progg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default That notorious hi-pitched noise again..:(((

Hi All,

A total newbie here with new PC, monitors, audio card, software, all already set.

I bought a second-hand HP z420 workstation - a powerful machine, but a bit too noisy for music production - the guys at the store were polite enough to change my first 420 with another and it has the same level of noise..too much fans I guess and I was told it's not recommendable to make any mods on this workstation. OK, let's say I'd put up with this, my mistake here. BUT here comes the real issue. Reaper starts emitting a hi-pitched noise once it gets started. Turns out to be a popular story. Here's my version:

My system: Win 10 Pro 64 bit
Reaper 5.76
Audio device: Steinberg UR44
Intel XEON E-5 0 1650 @ 3,20. 6 cores, 20 GB RAM, 2TB Seagate Barracuda, NVidia Quadro 4000
All audio settings done on Reaper and it works but with this hi-pitched noise going on.


What I've done in order to troubleshooting with no luck:

All drivers updated, last version of BIOS (tried to disable CPU Power Management from the BIOS settings but on my PC when I powering off the machine holding Shift and then powering on while holding F2 only gets me to a HP diagnostics tool; strangely enough, I couldn't get to BIOS through advanced restart either - no UEFI option apperas after restarting);

Isolated the monitors in separate power block so they no long emit this noise ( they also sufferd from this issues);

Balanced cables between the subwoofer and the audio card;

The ferrite filter supplied with Steinberg UR 44 also didn't help;

Connected audio card through powered USB hub (my greatest hope - failure again);

Switching off computer monitor, the noise still there;

This noise apears only with Reaper on or other apps engaging audio signal - VLC player, etc, but Reaper gets the noise on constantly and in a bit higher level.

The interesting thing is that when I switch on the other audio option making in default one (the Realtek Audio) and route it on Reaper (Audio system: WaveOut), the noise appears again. So maybe its not UR44 issue...The other interesting thing is that when I open Audio Device properties on Reaper, the noise desappears, but whatever settings I make (and I tried them all) the noise gets back right after closing the properties window. In most of the cases, holding Reaper on the taskbar only while doing something else, didn't get this noise on, but the only way getting rid of it for sure is closing Reaper.

The only thing that comes to my mind that I haven't tried yet is ground lifting the PC, but I don't know exactly how to do it and AFAIK it could be a bit risky operation. And again - only Reapers (and some audio/video players, but a bit quieter) get this noise on. Or maybe some DI boxes would help, but its not the audio card what produces the noise (and quiality DI's would coast )

The noise is relatively on a low level but still makes working with audio an unpleasant and not so effective experience. And eventually this gets unbearable.

Any input wil be highly appreciated! I migrated from an ancient Cubase SX2 windows XP 32 bit machine which was slow, but solid in most of the cases (and quieter), so I had my hopes and expectations when invested in "new" machine..

Cheers,
Kalin
kalin_progg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 02:00 AM   #2
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
Default

It does indeed sound like improper grounding of either the PC, or the USB ports.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 02:09 AM   #3
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Default

Are you in the USA? If so, Go to walmaret or Sams Warehouse and buy one of those little ground-lift three prong adapters. That way you can see if it helps without voiding your warranty.

And of course welcome to the forums. Assuming you are a complete newbie to Reaper, don`t forget to download the free user guide and check out the free video tutorials, all atthe top page here. reaper.fm
__________________
Ici on parles Franglais
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 04:23 AM   #4
kalin_progg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default

Thank you, guys! Will consider your ideas. Hopefully these'd help.

And yes, Kenny Gioia vidoes are interesting at the least.
kalin_progg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 05:24 AM   #5
kalin_progg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default

Do you think it could be an USB grounding problem if the noise appears even if the audio chip of the motherboard is set to be default?
I live in Europe so 3-prong ground lifting adaptor isn't an option for me.
Lots of audio guys consider ground lifting the power supply for a dangerous practise. Is there a clean way to isolate a computer from bad grounding audio issues..
kalin_progg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 06:03 AM   #6
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
Default

No, if it's internal mobo audio chip, it has nothing to do with USB.
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 07:34 AM   #7
kalin_progg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default

Thanks ED. The thing is this noise gets active when Reaper or any audio player is engaged whatever audio device is set to default. So the the problem seemds to be more of a general PC grounding issue.
kalin_progg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 07:36 AM   #8
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 24,790
Default

Yeah... Did you try a different power cable, a different outlet?
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 07:55 AM   #9
kalin_progg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default

Not yet, not having these at hand right now. Will check in a day or two. It would be great if the problem has such an easy solution. Thanks again!
kalin_progg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2018, 08:05 AM   #10
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
The interesting thing is that when I switch on the other audio option making in default one (the Realtek Audio) and route it on Reaper (Audio system: WaveOut), the noise appears again. So maybe its not UR44 issue...
Unless I missed where this was done or suggested, repeat the test above with the UR44 completely disconnected to completely rule it out. The other thing (again assuming I didn't miss it), disconnect every peripheral from the machine that you can disconnect (audio related or not) and see if it remains - so we can deduce if the problem is the machine itself, mobo, internal ground issue and so on. You might also peek inside the machine to see if there just happens to be some cable etc. sitting very close to the mobo or usb buss etc. that could be injecting noise interference.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2018, 03:25 AM   #11
kalin_progg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default

Well, it's got better but not really comfortable..let's say it's kinda bearable - what I did was to switch off all power savings and the internal speaker from BIOS. That reduced but didn't kill the noise. I use the same power block as with the previous PC, so it's hardly the reason. Additionally I unplugged front audio and internal speaker cables from the main board - that didn't changed anything as far as I hear. Its a workstation so dissembling it down to the tiniest part would be PITA. So for now I'll try ignoring the noise, it's more on the faint side anyway, though still hearable.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Best,
Kalin
kalin_progg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-27-2018, 04:48 AM   #12
Bri1
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: England
Posts: 2,432
Default

High-er__um have you actually tested your mouse? because.. i ran a test on mine here and the audio result is horrid--wanna hear it?
Bri1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2018, 12:56 AM   #13
Philbo King
Human being with feelings
 
Philbo King's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3,201
Default

This, to me, sounds like RFI (basically radio wave interference) generated in the motherboard from the high speed digital switching, then demodulated into audio by the circuits on the audio interface . If the audio interface is a PCI or PCIe card, try noving it to a different slot if possible.

Another thing worth trying is to wrap the audio card (temporarily!) with one of those blue plastic bags that electronic parts come in. They are not truly conductive, so you won't short anything out. They have a conductivity of around a billion ohms per square, so they are not really insulators either. But their sort-of-conductive nature is really good at blocking some types of RF interference from reaching your interface.

I used to use this technique at my day job when I built microwave transceiver design prototypes, as a quick test for RF leakage between sections of a circuit board.

If you find that this trick helps, you can get a better long term solution here:

https://www.digikey.com/products/en/...-materials/869

Beware, however. Read the spec sheet carefully before buying. Some of these products ARE conductive, and could short out stuff if applied improperly.

Last edited by Philbo King; 02-28-2018 at 01:05 AM.
Philbo King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2018, 01:14 AM   #14
drumphil
Human being with feelings
 
drumphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
Default

Is the noise still there when you listen through headphones connected directly to the audio interface? If not, then it is almost certainly ground loop related, rather than any noise being picked up through RFI. (because your headphones don't have a power supply with a ground plug, and so therefore are immune to ground loops. If the noise was present in your audio interface regardless of grounding, it would still show up on the headphone outputs)

Quote:
If the audio interface is a PCI or PCIe card, try noving it to a different slot if possible.
It's a USB interface.


Avid MBOX Mini units were famous for being susceptible to such problems when connected to amps or speakers that have a ground connection in the power plug. Other audio interfaces with unbalanced outputs didn't have the same problem when connected to the same computer and speakers. Was possible to get noise free performance from the on board sound, but annoying whine when using the MBOX mini, with the same computer and same speakers with unbalanced IO.

Balanced inputs on your speakers, and balanced outputs on the audio interface, with the shield disconnected at one end is the real solution to such issues, but some interfaces manage to be high pitch whine free even with unbalanced IO, where others have problems.

Looking at some results from the steinberg forums, it would seem you are far from alone having this problem.

Lifting the ground on the computer or amp isn't a good idea, because a fault can cause the casing to become live. That's why devices without a ground pin on the power cable have to be double insulated.

Unbalanced connections can never be guaranteed to have noise free performance, but depending on the design of the PSU in the computer, the design of the audio interface, it can work better or worse. Hard to say for certain which part is responsible in this situation. Is the noise there when you connect the on board sound from the computer to the speakers?

The details of exactly why some audio interfaces have this problem when others don't, when inserted in the exact same setup is beyond my comprehension of electrical engineering to understand fully or explain.

Last edited by drumphil; 02-28-2018 at 01:34 AM.
drumphil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2018, 01:27 AM   #15
Philbo King
Human being with feelings
 
Philbo King's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 3,201
Default

Oops, my bad... I just noticed the UR44 is a USB interface.

First try unplugging as much stuff from the USB ports as is practical. If this helps, skip ahead a paragraph..

Then try moving the UR44 to different USB ports on the PC.

Then try using a powered USB2 hub. I noticed this interface is bus powered, which means if you are close to the limits of the USB power the PC can provide, the unit will be running in power-starved mode, which can make the internal switching power supplies (which, incidentally, run at RF frequencies) start acting squirrelly.

Finally, if the problem is RF noise from the PC leaking onto the USB bus, put a big ferrite ring around the USB cable to see if it helps. Something like this one for USB2.
https://www.digikey.com/en/supplier-centers/c/cnc-tech
Philbo King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 05:36 AM   #16
kalin_progg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default

Hey, many thanks for being active on my topic!

Well, I tried headphones outputs (both of them) even before installing my monitor speakers. No noise indicated. UR44 has its own PSU, I don't count on the PC power to feed the audio card. As noted in my initial post, UR44 is plugged in a powered USB hub, balanced cables are used between UR44 and the sub-woofer, also I put that ferrite filter. Also tried to plug UR44 in different USB ports(2 and 3 generation). Only mouse, keyboard and UR44 are plugged in the USB ports.

Monitor speakers don't emit the noise, it's only heard from the PC(switching off the inside PC speaker and front audio cables from the mainboard also didn't help).

Whatever audio source is enabled (UR44 or the audio chip on the mainboard), this noise appears only when any audio app is activated (DAW, audio/video player. So I don't think the problem lies within UR44 or Reaper. Again, monitor speakers are isolated in separated power unit. UR44 is plugged in different power power unit. Same goes for PC and the monitor.

The one thing that reduced the noise to a certain degree was switching off power savings in BIOS.
kalin_progg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 07:10 AM   #17
Stella645
Human being with feelings
 
Stella645's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3,648
Default

What changes exactly did you make in the BIOS?

Have you disabled all C-States and EIST (Speedstep)?
Stella645 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 08:17 AM   #18
ramses
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,231
Default

I bet it's grounding. Try pulling cables from other outlets and see if things improve.
ramses is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 08:55 AM   #19
drumphil
Human being with feelings
 
drumphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalin_progg View Post
balanced cables are used between UR44 and the sub-woofer
What subwoofer, and does it definitely have balanced inputs? Just using balanced cables doesn't work if the inputs and outputs aren't both balanced, and even then if the shield is connected at both ends of the cable, as most cables come from the factory, you can still end up with ground loop problems.

Rane Notes (a largely forgotten these days, but incredibly valuable source of information about analog audio electronics) on Sound System Interconnection, and Ground and Shielding Audio Devices:

http://www.rane.com/note110.html

http://www.rane.com/note151.html

Quote:
I bet it's grounding.
Yep. I'd put money on it.

Last edited by drumphil; 03-01-2018 at 09:02 AM.
drumphil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 12:07 PM   #20
kalin_progg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default

The subwoofer is Mackie MR10Sm310" and it has balanced inputs both XLR and TRS. But as I noted even when audio is routed the mainboard audio and UR44 and the Mackie monitors are disbaled, there's still that noise when audio app is being used. So most probably UR44 and the monitors are not involved with this problem. And they are pulled in separate power blocks.

For my current system I use the same power blocks which I used with my previous PC, 2-3 weeeks ago (with no problems back then). OK, I did not experiment eliminating one by one devices, will check about that. I don't remember what power options I disabled in BIOS, but in a way I don't recall these C-States and EIST..
kalin_progg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 12:19 PM   #21
kalin_progg
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default

But I'm really interested on Reaper's dealing with this noise. Anyone care to elaborate on why the noise appears right after I open Reaper, but when I open its audio devices options menu, the noise is gone while this menu stays open? Whatever changes I make and then closing audio devises properties window, the noise gets back. That seems pretty weird to me.
kalin_progg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 12:20 PM   #22
Geoff Waddington
Human being with feelings
 
Geoff Waddington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Posts: 11,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalin_progg View Post
The subwoofer is Mackie MR10Sm310" and it has balanced inputs both XLR and TRS. But as I noted even when audio is routed the mainboard audio and UR44 and the Mackie monitors are disbaled, there's still that noise when audio app is being used. So most probably UR44 and the monitors are not involved with this problem. And they are pulled in separate power blocks.

For my current system I use the same power blocks which I used with my previous PC, 2-3 weeeks ago (with no problems back then). OK, I did not experiment eliminating one by one devices, will check about that. I don't remember what power options I disabled in BIOS, but in a way I don't recall these C-States and EIST..
You are misunderstanding the nature of ground loops.

Just having the equipment CONNECTED could be the issue, regardless if it is enabled.

You seem to think that having separate power supplies is a good thing when in fact, it may be CAUSING your troubles.

So, here's what to do:

Get the problem.

Unplug the subwoofer and monitors

Still there ?

Unplug the UR44 power

Stil there ?

Unplug the power to the USB hub

Still there ?

Well, you get the idea...

The problem most likely comes from having 2 or more things that plug in to the wall that also share a ground connection (through USB, XLR, etc).

Just disabling, turning things down, etc. does nothing in this case, it's all about the CONNECTIONS.

Sometimes just rearranging the power block plugs on the power bar (or however you connect your AC) can fix things.
__________________
To install you need the CSI Software and Support Files
For installation instructions and documentation see the Wiki
Donate -- via PayPal to waddingtongeoff@gmail.com
Geoff Waddington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 12:47 PM   #23
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post


So, here's what to do:

Get the problem.

Unplug the subwoofer and monitors

Still there ?

Unplug the UR44 power

Stil there ?

Unplug the power to the USB hub

Still there ?

Well, you get the idea...

The problem most likely comes from having 2 or more things that plug in to the wall that also share a ground connection (through USB, XLR, etc).

Just disabling, turning things down, etc. does nothing in this case, it's all about the CONNECTIONS.

Sometimes just rearranging the power block plugs on the power bar (or however you connect your AC) can fix things.
Agreed, especially since it sounds like post #10.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 12:56 PM   #24
Stella645
Human being with feelings
 
Stella645's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3,648
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalin_progg View Post
But I'm really interested on Reaper's dealing with this noise. Anyone care to elaborate on why the noise appears right after I open Reaper, but when I open its audio devices options menu, the noise is gone while this menu stays open? Whatever changes I make and then closing audio devises properties window, the noise gets back. That seems pretty weird to me.
When you open the devices dialogue Reaper releases the audio driver.

I'm not totally sure on this but I suspect that if it was ground loop as being suggested then you would get the noise regardless of whether driver was active.

This is why I asked clarification about your bios settings (but you didn't respond)
Stella645 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 12:56 PM   #25
Geoff Waddington
Human being with feelings
 
Geoff Waddington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Posts: 11,184
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Agreed, especially since it sounds like post #10.
I know, I saw your post, saw that it was not acted upon, and finally decided to give it the old college try of trying to explain what to do a different way
__________________
To install you need the CSI Software and Support Files
For installation instructions and documentation see the Wiki
Donate -- via PayPal to waddingtongeoff@gmail.com
Geoff Waddington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 01:05 PM   #26
karbomusic
Human being with feelings
 
karbomusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
I know, I saw your post, saw that it was not acted upon, and finally decided to give it the old college try of trying to explain what to do a different way
You did a fine job of that sir.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
karbomusic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2018, 06:54 PM   #27
drumphil
Human being with feelings
 
drumphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalin_progg View Post
But I'm really interested on Reaper's dealing with this noise. Anyone care to elaborate on why the noise appears right after I open Reaper, but when I open its audio devices options menu, the noise is gone while this menu stays open? Whatever changes I make and then closing audio devises properties window, the noise gets back. That seems pretty weird to me.
That's because the audio device is disabled while you are looking at the audio preferences window. Many audio interfaces only power up the audio circuits when the device is active.

The MBOX Mini I mentioned earlier behaved exactly like that. Much discussion on the forums about drivers and bios settings, drawn out by the fact that people couldn't believe it was a grounding issues because it went away when the audio device wasn't active. Transformer isolation fixed it = it was a ground loop issue.

Are your stereo monitors that you have connected to the sub using balanced inputs?

Assuming your system is using all balanced IO everywhere, the next step is to try disconnecting the shields in the cables at one end. Even when using balanced IO which should eliminate such problems, the shield acts as a ground path, which depending on exactly how how all the different components in your system are designed, can still leave you with ground loop noise.

Also, can we assume that you've done everything you can to test and isolate different parts of the system? Like, is the noise still there with only the left or right satellite connected, or only the left or right connection to the sub plugged in? What happens if you bypass the sub entirely?

The design of the PSU in the computer could exacerbate the problem. Do you have another computer you can test with?


If you still have a problem with all balanced IO with disconnected shields, then I'll get more interested is getting to the bottom of the issue. If you haven't actually tested with that configuration, I'm out until you have.

Last edited by drumphil; 03-02-2018 at 06:57 AM.
drumphil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2018, 08:36 AM   #28
drumphil
Human being with feelings
 
drumphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
Default

Damnit... Where do they all go? How long does it actually take to do the experiments suggested, and report back with results?
drumphil is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.