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Old 01-30-2017, 01:09 PM   #41
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Hm how is it if you turn off snapping?

Also: try exiting REAPER, temporarily renaming ~/Library/Application Support/REAPER to another name, running REAPER again (to get the very default config) -- does that affect things?
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Old 01-30-2017, 01:42 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgetty View Post
My iMac 5k had some odd video behavior until I went ahead and did a fresh/clean install of Sierra.
This is, what Robert should test ... install the latest Sierra on an external USB HDD or SSD and check, if the same behaviour is reproducable or not.

I did such a test before upgrading to El Capitan ... made an USB-stick OSX installer and installed from that to an external SSD and bootet from that to check if everything runs as expected.

If the test is successful a fresh install is the solution. I wouldn't be astonished, if that helps, because I often found issue reports about Yosemite and El Capitan, that mainly occured with upgrade installations, but not with fresh installs.

I also wouldn't be astonished, if Justin's Apple Store test will be issue free, because that iMac will likely run a fresh install of macOS.
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Old 01-30-2017, 01:57 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Not sure what I can do here -- I could go get a 5k imac, but from what I gather other people have them without this issue. I'll go in to an apple store in the next few days and see if I can duplicate.
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Hm how is it if you turn off snapping?

Also: try exiting REAPER, temporarily renaming ~/Library/Application Support/REAPER to another name, running REAPER again (to get the very default config) -- does that affect things?
Justin, thanks for looking in to this! Snapping is off ... The choppy behavior is the result of the lag in GUI. I will try the suggested solutions. Sierra is a clean install, but I can try a pristine sierra USB install, boot from there and run a default configuration of reaper on it. I suspect it will not make a difference, but I 'm curious enough to try.

Edit: PS. I already did some testing with a clean Reaper library folder (made no change)
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:13 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III View Post
Justin, thanks for looking in to this! Snapping is off ... The choppy behavior is the result of the lag in GUI. I will try the suggested solutions. Sierra is a clean install, but I can try a pristine sierra USB install, boot from there and run a default configuration of reaper on it. I suspect it will not make a difference, but I 'm curious enough to try.

Edit: PS. I already did some testing with a clean Reaper library folder (made no change)
hmm there are some indications in the video that snapping is enabled -- the marquee selection updates at a higher rate than the time selection.

What mouse are you using?
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:43 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
hmm there are some indications in the video that snapping is enabled -- the marquee selection updates at a higher rate than the time selection.

What mouse are you using?
I’m using the Apple “Magic Mouse” (whats in a name) with the mouse modifier: Media Item Bottom half => Marquee select items and time ignoring snap (same settings on VMware and Sierra) If I drag really slow on Sierra they are in sync (with no snap)

This is a clean fresh installed Sierra and pristine Reaper (same result as I expected) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptcqWMyW8g8

Edit: Maximum zoom slow and no snap on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5bCCV8HSGI

Edit: PS… I would love to see a screen recording like this of a 5k sierra iMac late 2015 without this problem… Anyone?
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Old 01-30-2017, 05:28 PM   #46
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A longshot: have you tried resetting pram and SMC?
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Old 01-30-2017, 08:02 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III View Post
I’m using the Apple “Magic Mouse” (whats in a name) with the mouse modifier: Media Item Bottom half => Marquee select items and time ignoring snap (same settings on VMware and Sierra) If I drag really slow on Sierra they are in sync (with no snap)

This is a clean fresh installed Sierra and pristine Reaper (same result as I expected) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptcqWMyW8g8

Edit: Maximum zoom slow and no snap on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5bCCV8HSGI

Edit: PS… I would love to see a screen recording like this of a 5k sierra iMac late 2015 without this problem… Anyone?
Can you try a regular USB mouse?

Also try this:

Go to preferences/General, Advanced, then for "Display updates" near the bottom choose "Force optimized drawing", then restart REAPER.
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Old 01-31-2017, 12:52 AM   #48
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Thank you so much Robert Johnson III for making those videos, i am amazed at how completely smooth Reaper runs under the VMware on the same hardware?.. wow.., and thank you Justin for looking into this and i really hope that when you try out reaper on a new 5k iMac that this issue gets fixed.. its so frustrating having this lag and glitchy reaper behaviour.

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Old 01-31-2017, 01:45 AM   #49
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Both USB mouse and changing the REAPER ”Display updates" makes no difference…. Also did the longshot resetting pram and SMC… CPU use goes up 13% with just resizing a window (with lag) but no idea if that has any implications https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdvYmJnAnjo

Edit: with scaled 1600x900 resolution and a very small REAPER window… There is some jitter, but much less lag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyEZNgCRRv0
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Old 01-31-2017, 01:56 AM   #50
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yes i have tried all suggestions and nothing has improved, reaper is still laggy and glitchy.., i can not wait to find out what on earth this highly annoying and frustrating problem is.

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Old 01-31-2017, 04:07 AM   #51
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On those YouTube videos, can you explain exactly how you're trying to make the selection?

I've done a left click-drag in the timeline, and a right click-drag on the item, and neither of them are notably laggy.

However, when I right click-drag in the item, I don't see the Time Selection line changing at the top as on your video, so there's maybe a difference in settings which is having an impact?

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Old 01-31-2017, 04:33 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
On those YouTube videos, can you explain exactly how you're trying to make the selection?

I've done a left click-drag in the timeline, and a right click-drag on the item, and neither of them are notably laggy.

However, when I right click-drag in the item, I don't see the Time Selection line changing at the top as on your video, so there's maybe a difference in settings which is having an impact?

Andy
Hi Andy, mouse modifier: Media Item Bottom half => Marquee select items and time ignoring snap (same settings on VMware and Sierra) Just left drag on the bottom half of the wave file.

Also when zoom dragging the height of an empty track you can see the lag in the video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdvYmJnAnjo (drags behind the mouse)

I have an 3,2 GHz Intel Core i5 processor, you’r iMac has an i7… But that should not make a big difference? Could you maybe post a short Quicktime screen recording? Could be helpful in figuring this out….
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Old 01-31-2017, 04:58 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Robert Johnson III View Post
I have an 3,2 GHz Intel Core i5 processor, you’r iMac has an i7… But that should not make a big difference?
A different graphics card might play a role.
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Old 01-31-2017, 05:06 AM   #54
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Hi Robert

I'll set those preferences and test later. Will try to do a screen capture video (not done one on Mac before! but guess I'll figure it out) and post if possible.

I'll also post specs.

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Old 01-31-2017, 07:20 AM   #55
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Hi Robert

I'll set those preferences and test later. Will try to do a screen capture video (not done one on Mac before! but guess I'll figure it out) and post if possible.

I'll also post specs.

Andy
Thanks Andy! If you start Quicktime then File=> New Screen Recording =>Click the red button in the window that pops up. Share to YouTube is also under file. Trim is under edit...
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Old 01-31-2017, 07:29 AM   #56
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Thanks Andy! If you start Quicktime then File=> New Screen Recording =>Click the red button in the window that pops up. Share to YouTube is also under file. Trim is under edit...

Everything you have shown in your youtube videos are exactly the same problems that i am having so i'm thinking that our iMacs with these amd graphics chips are the problem or the drivers???.., i can't wait to see what justin has discovered by testing reaper on a new 5k iMac.. if anything?.

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Old 01-31-2017, 07:38 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Futur8me View Post
Everything you have shown in your youtube videos are exactly the same problems that i am having so i'm thinking that our iMacs with these amd graphics chips are the problem or the drivers???.., i can't wait to see what justin has discovered by testing reaper on a new 5k iMac.. if anything?.

.
Me too… It baffles me that almost identical iMacs could perform so different…. (if that is indeed the case)
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Old 01-31-2017, 07:44 AM   #58
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Hey, I'll try to get a video up tomorrow if you want. I'm on El Capitan though, not Sierra, but I've got the same hardware; late 2015, 5K 27", 3.2GHz i5, Radeon R9 M390 2GB VRAM, 16GB RAM.
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Old 01-31-2017, 07:52 AM   #59
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Me too… It baffles me that almost identical iMacs could perform so different…. (if that is indeed the case)

But also the fact that windows runs reaper perfect on the same mac hardware?.

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Old 01-31-2017, 08:17 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Judders View Post
Hey, I'll try to get a video up tomorrow if you want. I'm on El Capitan though, not Sierra, but I've got the same hardware; late 2015, 5K 27", 3.2GHz i5, Radeon R9 M390 2GB VRAM, 16GB RAM.
Thanks Judders! I can still boot back into Capitan, the performance by all means should be the same. In Capitan the lag is somewhat les of a problem. I Posted a Capitan example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gg2eRkGM1k But compare that to Windows in VMware... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUiyNtvRtG4
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Old 01-31-2017, 08:22 AM   #61
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But also the fact that windows runs reaper perfect on the same mac hardware?.

.
Yes… Somewhere, something is definitely wrong… (on some iMacs) The hardware should be more than able to handle it if it runs that smooth in VMware/windows on the iMac (let alone my “real Windows PC”).
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Old 01-31-2017, 08:30 AM   #62
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These videos you have posted are night and day.., windows is smooth as butter movement, i have been using reaper on and off since october 2015 on both my 2008 MacBook Pro and new iMac, and reaper has always been laggy and glitchy, more so on the iMac.., i posted on this forum months ago maybe a year ago about the playhead being laggy and justin did some sort of update fix for it but i never noticed it getting better.

.
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Old 01-31-2017, 09:55 AM   #63
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Hi

Here you go: https://youtu.be/d1sAgYuYAuY

I can see the problem you're describing, although on my system it doesn't look as serious, and certainly hasn't caused me much grief while editing.

That said, if running Windows under VMware on the same machine works better, then there's obviously an issue to be fixed somewhere.

My specs:

OS Sierra 10.12.2
iMac Retina 5k, 27 inch, late 2014
4GHz Intel core i7
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 memory
AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096MB
Boot disk: 512GB SSD
Audio: RME Fireface UCX

Note - mine is late 2014, not 2015. Is there a spec difference which could account for why mine seems smoother, or is it just down to more CPU cycles or GPU memory?

Last edited by andyp24; 01-31-2017 at 10:06 AM. Reason: more info
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Old 01-31-2017, 10:03 AM   #64
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Hi

Here you go: https://youtu.be/d1sAgYuYAuY

I can see the problem you're describing, although on my system it doesn't look as serious, and certainly hasn't caused me much grief while editing.

That said, if running Windows under VMware on the same machine works better, then there's obviously an issue to be fixed somewhere.

My specs:

OS Sierra 10.12.2
iMac Retina 5k, 27 inch, late 2014
4GHz Intel core i7
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 memory
AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096MB
Boot disk: 512GB SSD
Audio: RME Fireface UCX

yes you have the issue as well.., its no way near as smooth as windows is.., also i'd like to know when you press play how does the playhead move for you?.. laggy?, for me its horrible it looks like its moving at 2 fps.

.
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Old 01-31-2017, 10:08 AM   #65
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I use a stationary timeline, so the waveform scrolls and the playhead doesn't move, so not an issue for me.

Waveform scrolling is not silky smooth, but acceptable for my use.

Andy
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Old 01-31-2017, 10:22 AM   #66
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I use a stationary timeline, so the waveform scrolls and the playhead doesn't move, so not an issue for me.

Waveform scrolling is not silky smooth, but acceptable for my use.

Andy

interesting.., everything i move in reaper is laggy and glitchy.

.

.
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Old 01-31-2017, 12:03 PM   #67
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Happy to post another video of me moving stuff around and the waveform scrolling if you want to see how it compares to your experience....?
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Old 01-31-2017, 02:48 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by andyp24 View Post
Hi

Here you go: https://youtu.be/d1sAgYuYAuY

I can see the problem you're describing, although on my system it doesn't look as serious, and certainly hasn't caused me much grief while editing.

That said, if running Windows under VMware on the same machine works better, then there's obviously an issue to be fixed somewhere.

My specs:

OS Sierra 10.12.2
iMac Retina 5k, 27 inch, late 2014
4GHz Intel core i7
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 memory
AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096MB
Boot disk: 512GB SSD
Audio: RME Fireface UCX

Note - mine is late 2014, not 2015. Is there a spec difference which could account for why mine seems smoother, or is it just down to more CPU cycles or GPU memory?
Thanks for doing this Andy!!
OS Sierra 10.12.2 Mine is 10.12.3
iMac Retina 5k, 27 inch, late 2014 Has a different CPU, previous generation Haswell vs. Skylake. (i7 4Ghz is faster than i5 3.2) and different CPU
8GB vs 24 GB RAM
AMD Radeon R9 M295X 4096MB vs AMD Radeon R9 M390 2048 MB http://www.game-debate.com/gpu/index...n-r9-m295x-4gb
SSD also
Apollo Twin

The lag is somewhat less, maybe what you could expect from a faster CPU and different GPU, but compared to windows REAPER is not in the same ballpark… I get the feeling that it is rather subjective what amount of frustration the GUI lag for someone holds… You adapt to it? But if you compare it to REAPER on windows there is a world of difference and for me it becomes obvious that things could be so much better. Hard to go back to a sluggish Mac OSX when you tried REAPER on a Windows PC... On my iMac (for me) the lag becomes an irritable distraction.
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Old 01-31-2017, 02:59 PM   #69
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Yes, interesting. I guess for me it never felt so bad that I thought it a problem, but you're absolutely right that there is one!

Hopefully Justin can come up with something, now I seem to have taken my voice off the "well it's ok for me" list!

Or I could just go back to running Reaper on my Windows laptop and keep the Mac for Final Cut Pro....

Cheers
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Old 01-31-2017, 04:49 PM   #70
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Yes, interesting. I guess for me it never felt so bad that I thought it a problem, but you're absolutely right that there is one!

Hopefully Justin can come up with something, now I seem to have taken my voice off the "well it's ok for me" list!

Or I could just go back to running Reaper on my Windows laptop and keep the Mac for Final Cut Pro....

Cheers
Andy
Thanks again for taking the time to test this Andy!

In defence of REAPER… Other daws also struggle with GUI lag (notably Logic X). I hope something can be done, but I’m afraid that MacOSX (Capitan/Sierra) possibly could have some "Funny Retina Problems" that Apple needs to solve… Apple probably has other priorities (some Daws could be in dire need of a future upgrade to be more compatible if things do not change).

And of course it also depends on the users tolerance for a sluggish GUI.

Contemplating switching to Windows though…

Cheers,

Robert
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Old 01-31-2017, 11:06 PM   #71
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In defence of REAPER… Other daws also struggle with GUI lag (notably Logic X).
Interesting, then it can make sense to google for Sierra performance optimization. Do you notice e.g. anything abnormal in activity monitor? Just a thought.
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Old 01-31-2017, 11:52 PM   #72
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In defence of REAPER… Other daws also struggle with GUI lag (notably Logic X).
Logic actually runs really nicely on my machines. Probably the smoothest out of all the DAW's I own actually. PT 12 definitely had some GUI issues in 10.11, but is pretty smooth on 10.12. Reaper, unfortunately, is the only one i'm having issues with.
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:33 AM   #73
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Well I'm not a programmer so I could be talking nonsense, BUT...

If my iMac can happily run high res video at 30fps or higher (it can), then updating an app's GUI should not be a problem, surely?

Also, if you can run Reaper under VMware without it looking laggy, doesn't that show that the iMac is fundamentally capable of displaying the GUI fast enough, and that the problem is actually in the laggy software?

I mean if:

Reaper GUI -> VMware -> Retina display works OK, and
Reaper GUI -> Retina display doesn't work OK, then what could VMware possibly be doing to "fix" a fundamental graphics problem in the iMac?

Andy
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Old 02-01-2017, 02:19 AM   #74
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Thanks again for taking the time to test this Andy!

In defence of REAPER… Other daws also struggle with GUI lag (notably Logic X). I hope something can be done, but I’m afraid that MacOSX (Capitan/Sierra) possibly could have some "Funny Retina Problems" that Apple needs to solve… Apple probably has other priorities (some Daws could be in dire need of a future upgrade to be more compatible if things do not change).

And of course it also depends on the users tolerance for a sluggish GUI.

Contemplating switching to Windows though…

Cheers,

Robert
Can you please test the newest 5.33pre9 to see if these macOS retina updates fix the problems we are having and let us know if anything is better, i can not get onto my iMac till tomorrow.. Thank you!.

.

.
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Old 02-01-2017, 03:00 AM   #75
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@Andy There should not be any problem… I was really amazed how much difference there is between Windows and Mac. The hardware certainly is not the problem. I found this link https://forum.qt.io/topic/59578/rend...with-retina-5k There’s something flawed, but I have no ambition to figure this all this out. If you let windows run on top of Sierra it is way faster, that is beyond weird as far as I’m concerned.

@Futur8me No difference in performance…

@Yymara Been there….

Side note: (Track) fonts look very low res on Retina and vertical align is off… Edit: (with the provided Theme a great improvement... I spoke too soon)
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Old 02-01-2017, 03:14 AM   #76
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@Andy There should not be any problem… I was really amazed how much difference there is between Windows and Mac. The hardware certainly is not the problem. I found this link https://forum.qt.io/topic/59578/rend...with-retina-5k There’s something flawed, but I have no ambition to figure this all this out. If you let windows run on top of Sierra it is way faster, that is beyond weird as far as I’m concerned.

@Futur8me No difference in performance…

@Yymara Been there….

Side note: (Track) fonts look very low res on Retina and vertical align is off…

Thank you for testing.., we really need Justin to get onto this and test out a new 5k iMac and explain what the problem is please.., why is Reapers GUI so crap under macOS?.

If apple is the problem i will be annoying the hell out of them until they fix it.. if they don't fix it then i'll have to go windows and ditch mac.


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Old 02-01-2017, 03:28 AM   #77
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why is Reapers GUI so crap under macOS?.
Is full Retina support implemented already?
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Old 02-01-2017, 07:00 AM   #78
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This is the same issue I've posted about previously, bad enough for me to retire Reaper to just editing jobs on the side. I'm not convinced this is specific to any graphics driver, I see the issues on Ati Mac Pro, Nvidia based Macbook Pro, and more recent Intel onboard graphics on Macbook Pro. The Reaper gui is always significantly slower than Windows, and in particular certain 'items' draw much slower than others, e.g. The playhead ruler is very slow and staggering, as is the counter/big clock, yet the audio meters on mixer channels are smoothly running at 60hz.

On top of this, Sierra has made this worse than ever (stopped at El Capitan here)

I do remember when Logic X first appeared the playhead was so bad as to be unusable, it seemed the entire arrange window was refreshing at 1hz, but updates over time seem to have restored Logic X to Logic 9 smoothness so clearly it's possible refine this.

If I had to choose between 'actual retina support' and simply having Reaper run smoothly albeit with 'fuzzy-looking (non retina)' on the retina Macs, I would definitely choose smooth over the resolution thanks!

Previous posts about this issue:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=165993

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=177633
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Old 02-01-2017, 07:12 AM   #79
Futur8me
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This is the same issue I've posted about previously, bad enough for me to retire Reaper to just editing jobs on the side. I'm not convinced this is specific to any graphics driver, I see the issues on Ati Mac Pro, Nvidia based Macbook Pro, and more recent Intel onboard graphics on Macbook Pro. The Reaper gui is always significantly slower than Windows, and in particular certain 'items' draw much slower than others, e.g. The playhead ruler is very slow and staggering, as is the counter/big clock, yet the audio meters on mixer channels are smoothly running at 60hz.

On top of this, Sierra has made this worse than ever (stopped at El Capitan here)

I do remember when Logic X first appeared the playhead was so bad as to be unusable, it seemed the entire arrange window was refreshing at 1hz, but updates over time seem to have restored Logic X to Logic 9 smoothness so clearly it's possible refine this.

If I had to choose between 'actual retina support' and simply having Reaper run smoothly albeit with 'fuzzy-looking (non retina)' on the retina Macs, I would definitely choose smooth over the resolution thanks!

Previous posts about this issue:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=165993

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=177633

Thank you for this!, the more people we have proving there is a problem the sooner we can get it fixed.. hopefully.., and yes it is worse under sierra, as soon as Justin can let us know with what he has found out then we will know if Reaper can be fixed to run better on macOS or if its apples macOS thats the problem full stop.., now i have sent a couple of feedbacks and complaints to apple have you?.. we all need to send feedback and complain to apple more.

.

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Old 02-01-2017, 07:37 AM   #80
Robert Johnson III
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Miller View Post
This is the same issue I've posted about previously, bad enough for me to retire Reaper to just editing jobs on the side. I'm not convinced this is specific to any graphics driver, I see the issues on Ati Mac Pro, Nvidia based Macbook Pro, and more recent Intel onboard graphics on Macbook Pro. The Reaper gui is always significantly slower than Windows, and in particular certain 'items' draw much slower than others, e.g. The playhead ruler is very slow and staggering, as is the counter/big clock, yet the audio meters on mixer channels are smoothly running at 60hz.

On top of this, Sierra has made this worse than ever (stopped at El Capitan here)

If I had to choose between 'actual retina support' and simply having Reaper run smoothly albeit with 'fuzzy-looking (non retina)' on the retina Macs, I would definitely choose smooth over the resolution thanks!

Previous posts about this issue:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=165993

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=177633

Good to know I’m not the first who has a problem with a sluggish REAPER GUI… Maybe part of the ongoing “problem” is that Justin (who I hold in very high esteem) states: “My main computer is a 2012 retina MBP running sierra, and with a thunderbolt display. I can safely say that it performs very much adequately on either (or both) monitors…” I see a few more users responding, who are quite happy with the way REAPER performs, but I have yet to see a demonstration of REAPER that is not sluggish under OSX Sierra/Capitan… Especially compared with the way it runs on Windows. I presume people adapt.
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