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06-21-2017, 07:47 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 211
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Anyone know of an 'encyclopedia' of drum rhythms?
Hello,
I'm not a drummer and I want to program some straightforward beats in different styles. I'd like to learn a more about the construction of drum beats while I'm at it. Does anyone have any recommendations? It could be all notation, it could have explanation, either way.
Thanks,
A
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06-22-2017, 02:31 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,890
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just search for "drum machine patterns pdf" i suppose?
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06-22-2017, 04:57 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: UK, near Europe
Posts: 878
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Why not just get some MIDI drum tracks/loops and analyse those? There are plenty available for all sorts of styles. The quality can be pretty variable but it should get you started.
IMO GrooveMonkee sell some of the best and even have some free ones https://groovemonkee.com/pages/free-midi-loops
Other than that there's a lot of information on websites like https://www.attackmagazine.com/techn...eat-dissected/
Steve
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06-22-2017, 05:30 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,738
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AC/DC - Back in Black.
The rest don't matter that much.
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06-22-2017, 06:44 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 623
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google drum rudiments also
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06-22-2017, 09:44 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Exmouth, England
Posts: 2,687
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I've got The Drummer's Bible by Mick Berry and Jason Gianni. I got it to help with my drum programming.
The beats are notated plus there are couple of audio CDs.
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06-22-2017, 06:06 PM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 9,048
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I think you will want trial and error, and learn what the different times mean, and sound like, and test triplets and swing, and then just program however you want.
Dynamics are also key.
Or, just get pre-made loops or grooves. Learning "styles" off by heart, might be more tough. I mean there is some subtlety and room for creativity in every style. But learning some styles like that, might be a way to get you to learn what certain divisions sound like.
It's more fun to just have a project and figure out how to do that, and then move on to the next one, imo.
Your approach is kind of like learning a language by reading the dictionary first.
__________________
Slava Ukraini
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06-22-2017, 06:53 PM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratman
I've got The Drummer's Bible by Mick Berry and Jason Gianni. I got it to help with my drum programming.
The beats are notated plus there are couple of audio CDs.
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I basically program the drums according to what I hear in my head, and use my keyboard to play the midi in to try get the feel. However, my clients are older type musicians and the drums are pretty simple.
At my age that's not likely to change, but if I was younger with a younger clientele, I think what stratman proposes would be the ticket.
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06-22-2017, 07:18 PM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,541
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eDrum engines usually have tutorial songs i various styles.
And for Yamaha at least there are pdf books with notation of the built in patterns for various styles, pop, rock, funk, jazz and others.
Here:
https://my.yamaha.com/en/products/co...ore/index.html
__________________
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06-22-2017, 07:50 PM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 29,260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
I basically program the drums according to what I hear in my head
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I have thousands of Groove Monkey drum patterns, I still end up playing what is in my head 95% of the time because it's just faster that way to find what fits.
__________________
Music is what feelings sound like.
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06-22-2017, 08:03 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 211
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Thanks for the thoughts and the wisecracks, too!
I'm going with stratman and ordering the Drummer's Bible. I agree with those who say 'play what's in your head' (which I do) and 'analyze the loops' but I was hoping to get my head around the core structures of these styles in a consistent and clear way so that when I have it in my head I will have a better idea of what it is so I can get it out faster. I'm kind of academic that way, plus my other motivation is to help my kids with their music studies, too.
Also, thanks to Nip for the download links. That was helpful.
Reaper's forum is the best!
Last edited by androo; 06-22-2017 at 08:14 PM.
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06-22-2017, 10:32 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montreal, Canada
Posts: 9,048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by androo
Thanks for the thoughts and the wisecracks, too!
I'm going with stratman and ordering the Drummer's Bible. I agree with those who say 'play what's in your head' (which I do) and 'analyze the loops' but I was hoping to get my head around the core structures of these styles in a consistent and clear way so that when I have it in my head I will have a better idea of what it is so I can get it out faster. I'm kind of academic that way, plus my other motivation is to help my kids with their music studies, too.
Also, thanks to Nip for the download links. That was helpful.
Reaper's forum is the best!
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The difficult part about going from what's in your head into reality, is understanding what the names/definitions of the things in your head are, and how to materialize them.
A book of beats won't be able to do that for you. Just like a book of guitar chords won't really help you play guitar, and a book of words, won't help you speak a language. Reading about compressors, or EQ won't help you there, either.
The truth is, what really gets you there, is grinding it out, and putting the time in. That's what makes the connection between the experience and the name, or definition, or shape, or setting, or what have you. There is no way around that.
For me, a book just adds an extra step. Now you have to go through the book, and try a bunch of things in the book, before you get to the stage of beginning to experience programming, and trial and error. Then you will just be copying the book as well.
When you drive someone home, and they tell you "turn left here, and right now etc..." you usually will never remember how to get there again, if you don't know the neighbourhood. But if you work it out yourself, you will always remember, because you build those connections. But it is more work that way.
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Slava Ukraini
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06-23-2017, 03:20 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
I still end up playing what is in my head 95% of the time
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But if you're stupid?
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06-23-2017, 04:17 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: The Dutch Mountains
Posts: 389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound asleep
The difficult part about going from what's in your head into reality, is understanding what the names/definitions of the things in your head are, and how to materialize them.
A book of beats won't be able to do that for you. Just like a book of guitar chords won't really help you play guitar, and a book of words, won't help you speak a language. Reading about compressors, or EQ won't help you there, either.
The truth is, what really gets you there, is grinding it out, and putting the time in. That's what makes the connection between the experience and the name, or definition, or shape, or setting, or what have you. There is no way around that.
For me, a book just adds an extra step. Now you have to go through the book, and try a bunch of things in the book, before you get to the stage of beginning to experience programming, and trial and error. Then you will just be copying the book as well.
When you drive someone home, and they tell you "turn left here, and right now etc..." you usually will never remember how to get there again, if you don't know the neighbourhood. But if you work it out yourself, you will always remember, because you build those connections. But it is more work that way.
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Well said, Sound asleep!
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06-23-2017, 04:53 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sound asleep
For me, a book just adds an extra step. Now you have to go through the book, and try a bunch of things in the book, before you get to the stage of beginning to experience programming, and trial and error. Then you will just be copying the book as well.
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Can't say I agree much - that a book would be hinderance to anything.
It's a bit like saying you should not educate yourself - just do things. Then there are good and worse ways to teach - is another matter.
Getting the patterns for typical styles and listen to them - you know what is in your head, or some resemblance thereof.
Especially since signatures are different when going more into funk style, with triplets and such. Raggae or latino styles like bossa etc.
This is a really good foundation to build on - knowing a couple of basics.
When trying to learn to play drums I also felt that there would be an encyclopedia of all known rhythms. But looking at some tutorials of Jeff Porcaro he explained how much experimenting there is to find what fits a song. And he also explains very well what he is doing playing triplets 1st and 3d and how things begin to swing.
So yes, Porcaro have a sea of experience in his head - but building on what he teach you can get there quicker what is already known.
Interesting enough, Jeff never did notation on his tuts, his brother Joe did, transcibing from lessons and what he did there.
Then to break new ground - this is another matter.
Remember from the 80's having Casio VL-tone before I could afford a sequencer. I had a tiny sequencer in there, but no midi. So I had to start it in realtime listening to tape doing sound-on-sound recording kind of.
And one take I did, I was a bit late starting it - so bass in that sequence were on up-beats instead of down-beats. And really created a drive that stayed with me since. Starting to realize the combo bass and drums.
So exposing yourself to accidents is really important part when creating something.
So even a simple drum machine that allow realtime programming is really good. You hit a drum in there as it runs in a loop. If all wrong, you just held button it down and that drum was deleted from pattern. Then tried again.
So if programming pattern - see to that you do accidental stuff too. Do basic pattern - but fool around a bit too and unique stuff will appear that is art. Like leaving the snare and just do that realtime as well as maybe a tom or floor tom. Don't rely on that swing quantizing and daw will do that for you.
So if taking pattern from a book - remove some stuff, and see how that builds a tension that is interesting. Beats is just as much space as hits - maybe more about space even.
Anyway, have fun...most important thing.
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06-23-2017, 07:00 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,194
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The modern drum VST do a good job, but I need a good way to complement programming like some easy way of adding some rythm without a drum set.
Tried airdrums - disaster.
The pads on my oxygen keyboard sux.
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06-23-2017, 07:54 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Kalispell
Posts: 14,745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratman
I've got The Drummer's Bible by Mick Berry and Jason Gianni. I got it to help with my drum programming.
The beats are notated plus there are couple of audio CDs.
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This is the key, it's not just a book.
"plus there are couple of audio CDs."
And playing what's in you head is not just playing what's in your head. If you can't feel it, then it means nothing, and it's likely not going to be in your head.
I usually play it out with my hands on a leg, or a table, or anything that's handy. If it feels good while I'm doing that then it will likely work.
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06-23-2017, 10:16 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msundh
The modern drum VST do a good job, but I need a good way to complement programming like some easy way of adding some rythm without a drum set.
Tried airdrums - disaster.
The pads on my oxygen keyboard sux.
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With the drum trigger plugs pretty much anything can be a drum. If it feels good slapping your knee, mic that. Then you can compressor or gate or EQ it and mess with the trigger plug settings until it it makes a MIDI drum do what you did and sound good doing it. Multiple mics, multiple chains, multiple drums at once.
Me, I never found anything that really felt good to me until I got a working guitar>MIDI converter. Now I just play an instrument that I am already comfortable with timing and dynamics and map the notes to drum sounds.
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06-24-2017, 07:09 PM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 211
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My 'Drummer's Bible' just arrived and is exactly what I'd hoped for: explanations of many (most?) styles with examples in notation and audio CD. In addition, it has a section of rudiments (now I can know what all those -para-whata-diddles really are), and a long list of recommended listening. This was a great suggestion.
I'm more than a little surprised that the idea of a study-guide book was criticized as much as it was. While I'm all for learning-by-doing, that alone always seemed like the slow road. Sure, lots of great players realized their greatness without learning theory but I think they're more the exceptions.
While I can put a beat together myself, the breadth of my ideas is pretty limited. I could sit down and listen to beats I like or want to emulate and figure them out that way, which I have done, but isn't it a lot faster to have the essential ideas already indexed and annotated as a starting point? Or how about all those rhythmic ideas that I probably wouldn't come up with on my own? I can see already how this book is going to give me new tools and more variety to the rhythms I create.
To each their own.
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06-24-2017, 08:18 PM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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check this out.... I see now it comes as a vsti... I only know of it from years past when it not vsti, but only a standalone program...
but the real point is there are a huge many down loads of rhythm's for it and of course you can modify existing ones...
http://www.moosware.net/PercussionStudio/
Think I'll get that vsti myself...
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06-24-2017, 10:01 PM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,541
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In the days I used portastudio, not daw, I used PCdrummer:
http://pcdrummer.com/
What I liked about it was pattern based like old hardware drummachines, and easy to repeat a loop and similar as well.
And it allowed realtime programming, so you can go for accidental creativity. Or just do step programming.
As I recall you chose resolution 16, 32 or 64 beat patterns if you wnated to do offbeat stuff.
Generate midi or audio from built in sets.
This was 15 years ago, and probably is developed further, I guess.
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06-25-2017, 09:15 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,290
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Youtube?
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"F" off.
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06-25-2017, 11:37 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Norfolk UK
Posts: 1,351
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I used to think of drums as a 'maybe-add-on' without really thinking about them at one time and so struggled with drumming patterns when I realised they had as much importance as any other instrument. I turned to using a cheap drum machine, it's presets and some pattern books I found. This sort of made things easier but also led to a growing disatisfaction - patterns began to sound mechanistic, stilted and artificial.
However, and going back to the OP's original request, the drum pattern books gave me a solid sense of some of some simple, basic, beat patterns and some basic variations. I think these have stayed with me and helped me move on - I am talking about the basic kick-snare-kick-kick-snare type of thing.
There are many ways to learn and move on and up, to each his own, as someone already said.
Spent an afternoon in the loft and found them:
Drum Machine Patterns By Rene-Pierre Bardet - Publisher Hal Leonard.
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Windows 10 Pro. Intel i7 3400ghz. 16GB Ram. Focusrite Scarlett 8i6. Reaper 64.
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06-25-2017, 02:40 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 10,478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratman
I've got The Drummer's Bible by Mick Berry and Jason Gianni. I got it to help with my drum programming.
The beats are notated plus there are couple of audio CDs.
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Yeah, that's a good one. Covers every possible style, with notation and CDs with examples.
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06-25-2017, 08:38 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Northeast Michigan
Posts: 3,460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter5992
Yeah, that's a good one. Covers every possible style, with notation and CDs with examples.
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Does it cover time signatures? I like to know how to figure out different time signatures... I know the basics, i.e., 4/4, 3/4, 7/8. But I'd like to learn them even deeper.
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06-25-2017, 09:43 PM
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#26
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 211
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Thanks for the software and book references. I love how old-school the Percussion Studio and PC Drummer sites are. I feel like I should pull out my old Yamaha RY-30 and Tascam 4-track...if only I had some tapes to record on.
As usual, the Reaper forum comes through with great suggestions. Very much appreciated.
@Jeffsounds: the Drummer's Bible has a section on odd time. It lists three subsections:
1. Prominent odd meters (5/4, 7/4, 5/8, 7/8)
2. Breaking up standard meters (3/4, 4/4, 9/8)
3. Creating additional odd-time meters (11/8, 13/8, 15/8, 19/16)
Note that this book doesn't go into great depth and is written for drummers but presents a few concepts and variations for all the styles it covers, which sure seems pretty thorough.
Just by listening to the CD's I can recognize beats that are widely used, so I think they've achieved their goals well. Like what RobertP was saying, I'd expect that a number of these examples will stick with me as I try to get my ideas down, making the process go faster, which was mainly what I was after.
Cheers!
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06-26-2017, 03:06 PM
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#27
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 215
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uh....Jim Keltner?
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06-26-2017, 05:21 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,826
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod
I basically program the drums according to what I hear in my head, and use my keyboard to play the midi in to try get the feel. However, my clients are older type musicians and the drums are pretty simple.
At my age that's not likely to change, but if I was younger with a younger clientele, I think what stratman proposes would be the ticket.
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To be fair there dude, i know a ton of dance producers, and while it would seem that a step sequencer would be the quickest way forward, most of us still start with some played in MIDI hahaha
So i doubt very much age has any bearing on that (Awesome) technique.
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Stop posting huge images, smaller images or thumbnail, it's not rocket science!
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06-26-2017, 07:59 PM
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#29
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Belgium
Posts: 211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Studio Tan
uh....Jim Keltner?
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Yeah, he fits the bill. I couldn't get him with free shipping so I went with the book instead.
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