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12-01-2009, 09:42 AM
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#81
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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bump anyone? seems like such an easy/intuitive/useful feature. The method described in the how-to sticky just doesn't work very well, especially when you wanna tweak the map
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12-05-2009, 12:43 AM
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#82
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 192
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dragging MIDI beats In Cubase
I haven't tried this myself, but I did see a tutorial called using cubase's warp tool on google video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...t-cSGCA&hl=en#
It's at the very end where she demonstrates..."We saw how we can manipulate audio files to match its tempo to a linear grid. Now let's see how we can warp a timeline to match the tempo to the audio file without processing the audio file." Both of these processes are important. Has Justin made these both possible? It was my understanding that he had done both. It would be possible, I imagine, to do this within a piano roll view using cubase's piano roll warp button, so as to move the grid to the appropriate places, shifting the tempo to match the actual nuances of the recording. Am I way off base or do these operations already cover the territory that is needed?
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12-11-2009, 07:46 AM
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#83
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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Yes, in REAPER you can currently warp audio to match the grid, or you can warp the grid to match audio. In some ways REAPER is more flexible then Cubase because you can tell certain objects to either follow the tempo or not, and you can easily quantize a midi part that was not recorded to tempo (by first warping the grid, then injecting the tempo into the midi object, then erasing all the global tempo changes)
but the process of doing such things could be improved, and cubase's "warp" style drag and drop of markers to stretch things is just much more intuitive. To work in that manner in reaper requires some extra rather clumsy steps.
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12-20-2009, 05:04 PM
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#84
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 192
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Warp Grid To Offtime MIDI Note
Thanks Tomm. I'm visually impaired and it takes a good amount of time to find things in the manual. Where are these features documented the best?
My need is, more often than not, to create the timing variations using MIDI, and then to adjust the timing grid, and then hopefully to snap to this adjusted grid when I mouse-enter new notes.
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05-07-2010, 09:33 AM
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#85
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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...bump
the new tempo "improvements" actually break some existing workarounds i got used to. So now this feature is even more important to me.
Guess I'll check back in a year or two...
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05-07-2010, 01:24 PM
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#86
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cambridge, Ontario
Posts: 2,644
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Youn
Here's an animation illustrating my FR... the hand is the mouse cursor clicking and draging the marker (while holding down some key combo like Shift+Ctrl for example)...
[img]http://img525.**************/img525/4827/tempopq5.gif[/img]
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This would make tempo mapping in Reaper SO intuitive and fast. Would absolutely love to have this feature.
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05-10-2010, 12:15 PM
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#87
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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*bump*
now that video is getting some attention, this feature would makes sense because many who score to film need an easy way to manipulate the tempo map.
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09-20-2010, 08:41 AM
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#88
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glasgow UK
Posts: 83
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I score to movie with Reaper and this would save me endless frustration!!!!
Been searching around trying to find a nice way of doing this, there just isn't one!
+1 from me
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09-20-2010, 09:08 AM
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#89
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 15,618
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so why does this thread say "DONE" on it....
Has this feature been implemented fully? If so, I'm late to the party.... I'd like to know about it and about using it.
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09-20-2010, 09:14 AM
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#90
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi
so why does this thread say "DONE" on it....
Has this feature been implemented fully? If so, I'm late to the party.... I'd like to know about it and about using it.
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hmmm... has it?!?! yeah, i missed it too, how do we do this now?
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09-20-2010, 09:17 AM
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#91
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glasgow UK
Posts: 83
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can someone shed some light on if this has actually been done? ... looked through the last changelog, but couldn't see anything.
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09-20-2010, 09:27 AM
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#92
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glasgow UK
Posts: 83
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Actually while we're on the subject anyone know how to set a tempo-change on a non-beat now?
Since the update it just snaps to the nearest whole beat ... which is useless for syncing hits in film scores!
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09-20-2010, 09:34 AM
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#93
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Kennedy
Actually while we're on the subject anyone know how to set a tempo-change on a non-beat now?
Since the update it just snaps to the nearest whole beat ... which is useless for syncing hits in film scores!
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Tempo changes by themselves won't snap, unless snapping is on, but they will either way if there's also a time-sig change (which snaps tothe nearest measure!).
Still, you can get around this by dragging the envelope point while holding down "Shift"
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09-20-2010, 10:01 AM
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#94
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glasgow UK
Posts: 83
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Tomm: can't get Shift drag to work on the time-sig change markers!
I have however found that Shift + Alt + C works on any arbitrary selection ... you don't need to create the change markers first, it creates them for you.
Is that new??
So you can effectively do the tempo mapping quite easily this way to audio:-
1) click drag the region for your first 4 notes (if in 4/4)
2) hit Shift + Alt + C
What I would like to see is a way to edit the grid without changing the MIDI's global timing ... i.e. I want to edit the grid to fit the MIDI of a loose performance
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09-20-2010, 12:16 PM
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#95
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu Kennedy
Tomm: can't get Shift drag to work on the time-sig change markers!
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Yeah it won't work on marker, you need to click-drag the "envelope point" - you need to open the master track on the TCP and enable tempo envelope to see this.
It's wonky now, because they changed how to also force up/down or left/right movement of points and I'm not sure how to do that.
Envelope editing in general is kinda wonky though, maybe there's a hot-key I don't know about that makes it easier... anyone?
Quote:
I have however found that Shift + Alt + C works on any arbitrary selection ... you don't need to create the change markers first, it creates them for you.
Is that new??
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No, they added it years ago and is currently what we do for faster tempo map creation. But, as you might imagine, going back and tweaking one measure inthe middle of the song is kinda tricky.
here's a video showing this technique, note you can also click and drag the markers after the fact:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=5337
Quote:
What I would like to see is a way to edit the grid without changing the MIDI's global timing ... i.e. I want to edit the grid to fit the MIDI of a loose performance
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Right click on midi object, goto "Item Properties", then click "Properties" button near bottom of window, then check "Ignore project tempo information"... then tempo map changes won't modify timing of that midi object.
Not sure of a faster way to do this for multple midi objects
Last edited by Tomm; 09-20-2010 at 12:21 PM.
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09-20-2010, 12:27 PM
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#96
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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just to add to the above, concerning midi... once you create the tempo map to match the midi performance, you can uncheck this option, then erase the tempo map, and you are left with a straight non-tempo changing midi performance... this trick may be useful when importing the performance into another daw, or if you wanna re-create a tempo map
to do this sorta stuff in most other daws is a nightmare, or impossible... still, it could be easier in reaper. I hope the developers notice this is just lacking a bit of polish
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09-20-2010, 12:29 PM
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#97
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Glasgow UK
Posts: 83
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Tomm: thanks so much ... that'll improve things a lot for me even if there isn't a legitimate solution.
Upto now I've had NO way of doing this ... so it'll really help,
Cheers
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10-11-2010, 08:34 AM
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#99
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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* BUMP *
AdamWathan, thanks for that, still doesn't address the issue we're talking about though, but it's a fine alternative to getting the basic tempo map layed out. I personally think the hotkey set were you hover over the first beat and click "o" to drop in the tempo changes is faster and more accurate. See here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=15
other methods:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=5337
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10-14-2010, 09:10 PM
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#100
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 156
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Still looking forward to seeing this get implemented.
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10-19-2010, 06:23 AM
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#101
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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Well, I put this feature in the tracker, but it was shot down pretty quick, even deleted. Not sure why, very strange...
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10-19-2010, 06:27 AM
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#102
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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woops, nevermind, it's still there... just all the new comments were removed and it was buried accordingly.
Anyways here it is in case anyone wants to vote for it or whatever:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2966
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10-20-2010, 01:07 PM
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#103
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Far North
Posts: 191
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Melodyne editor
This may solve part of the problem. If you have a song/track you can load into ME, it will automatically detect the tempo, also variations. Export to midi track, import the midi track into Reaper. Reaper asks if you want to create tempo markers, say yes and voala it moves the grid to fit the tempo. Sometime you have to nudge the audio track somewhat to find the right start position. Cockle and/or Celemony should look closer into this particular issue.
Unbelievable !!!!
So download and try......I have used it many times......
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11-04-2010, 03:02 PM
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#104
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by producer
This may solve part of the problem.
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Well, creating a basic tempo map isn't the problem, it's fine tuning, and going back and adjusting measure in between, etc... this feature would make that process much MUCH easier.
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11-05-2010, 01:10 AM
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#105
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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+1
I've not read all the posts, but could it be possible to:
- Lock a tempo marker to time
- Select an area, position the mouse somewhere in that area, and adjust tempo just inside that area, with relative changes towards the edges of the selection. Tempochanges in curves or lines (not steps) preferably.
(And this could be done the same way with audio as well across multiple takes)
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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01-02-2011, 08:27 PM
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#106
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 192
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G-sun, thank you! That's partly what I had in mind when I chimed in, to be able to not just adjust Reaper's idea of tempo to match an already-recorded piece of music, but to AID IN THE PROCESS OF CREATIVITY, when the canvas is blank or nearly so.
So what you're saying I think goes to my goal of this working for composition as well as tweaking, or for non-musically skilled players or composers to play with ideas. Causing a grid to be smoothly increased or decreased at will (that musical event objects can be snapped to or simply created from in series), seems ridiculously tedious without the aid of software. Much of it comes down to curvature. It seems that human beings hear these kinds of musical curves emotionally, but it takes a great player to lay them down, but the math should be basic, since it all boils down to tension (dissonance) and release (consonance) in terms of temporal smoothness.
I can see how present tools are useful when there is already a musical part, and you want to connect the tempo to it, but what I am trying to do is gain insight and control as a composer, into time elements in music.
So you see the ass-backwards process of creating a series of "arbitrary" points for composing, when the idea is to use algorithmic firepower to automate the production of a smooth-able truss- work for furthering ideas - for instance if you want to add nuances to a solo section created via software rather than real musicians. Wanting to breath, pull or push, when musicians improvise they do these sorts of things all the time, slowing down during resolutions in the music, or rushing/lagging a couple of notes here or there as a kind of musical premonition before the rest of the music follows.
Its listening to multi-ethnic music, including island music I think, that really rammed this home to me (because there's a lot of deviation and playfulness). Or you could think of a case of two 'solo' pianists both improvising with one another.
So there are cases where it might not work to think of there being only one tempo. Its like when they tried to impose church music on folk musicians. "No, you can only use fifths, those are the devils intervals..." It's not really that we're oddballs. Instead, we musicians are what's real. "Tempo" should be thought of as virtual rather than all-imposing - its just what we experience when timings are co-ordinating, when they align along certain points. The convention of a single tempo at a time along some sequencer timeline is just an aid. Just like the idea of a single key for a song on sheet music was an aid; what if everyone was forced to stay in that key until the song changed?
I'm frustrated. Can't some rebel programmer program music software to its fullest where tools are there but are pretty flexible in terms of the core elements of music theory? Reaper would seem to be the perfect vehicle for this. It doesn't even need to be a bloated program that offers this flexibility; its more important that it be a flexible one.
(Musical Timing Grid: a series of pre-positioned points in time along which events can be fixed or based on which they can be generated.)
I think there need not be only one grid, one "aid" for musical time that everything else must adhere to. Instead, a really innovative program, by now in the year 2011, should have a non-destructive edit where you could produce a series of smoothly accel/decelerating notes using some user-adjustable grid 1) not fixed to the "actual" 'main' tempo except at an initial affixation point, or 2) offset from the master-(track's) tempo (along with any other sub-master tempo curves) but still having its grid points dependent to and affixed upon the master track's tempo, so that if that master tempo changes they follow based on all their multiple affixation points.
Just ideas I guess.
Of course I wouldn't want to be the programmer....Man, kind of reminds you of Reaper, which must have made the guys at Steinberg green with envy. Now, creating features at even lower over-head, that would make cockos envious,is much, much harder, but these non-standard tempo tools are some of the features...I hope Reaper has them first.
Last edited by jesussaddle; 01-02-2011 at 09:07 PM.
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01-02-2011, 08:36 PM
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#107
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Chi-town
Posts: 62
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i love this idea and have often begged sonar to do this ...
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01-03-2011, 09:07 AM
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#108
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Finally someone who understands tempo
Relief..
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Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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01-03-2011, 10:03 AM
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#109
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Rafael
Posts: 11,594
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want beat but want no beat?
Maybe I am confused here.
Someone does not like to play with a click (beat), but wants the result to be integrated into music that has a beat.
Which thing do you want?
Is that similar to the common problem in songwriting, where the songwriter writes non-melodic melodies, but wants someone to come along and SING them melodically?
__________________
My religion is all or none.
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01-03-2011, 10:10 AM
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#110
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Rafael
Posts: 11,594
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two modes of creativity
Another expression of my confusion, you know, to clarify what is unclear???
There are already in Reaper two modes of expression. MIDI has strict time, and audio recording does not.
Is that not the basis for working EITHER in strict time or flexibly AROUND strict beat-centered time?
There is another similar way of seeing the two modes of expression. Recorded music is more time-defined, but LIVE playing is not constrained by recorded time. There you go, you have two ways of creating music, and they can be used together.
So where is the best place to implement "time-stretching"? Perhaps in the head and ear of the musician. Is it the job of programmers to give us "automatic" tools for working with time?
__________________
My religion is all or none.
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01-03-2011, 10:43 AM
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#111
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msore
Someone does not like to play with a click (beat), but wants the result to be integrated into music that has a beat.
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To me it's both. I'd like to:
- Record without click, tempomap the song down to 16th, then maybe record some more/ add midi
- Record without click, tempomap the song, tweek some passages where I played to sloppy (with regard to tempo). Record more /add midi
- Arrange the song with some midi first, tweeking tempo as needed. Then record the rest.
To me musical expression is so much about tempo
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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01-03-2011, 10:51 AM
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#112
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msore
There is another similar way of seeing the two modes of expression. Recorded music is more time-defined, but LIVE playing is not constrained by recorded time. There you go, you have two ways of creating music, and they can be used together.
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Of course we could just record midi and audio without click, and without regard to a DAW's timline/beatline. That's what most people do today when the feel a DAW's click/beat is not right for them.
But people like me, want the best of both worlds. Musical/human tempochanges (made easy) and the ability to quantize midi/audio, slave delay-tempos to song and more.
__________________
Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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01-03-2011, 02:37 PM
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#113
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msore
Maybe I am confused here.
Someone does not like to play with a click (beat), but wants the result to be integrated into music that has a beat.
Which thing do you want?
Is that similar to the common problem in songwriting, where the songwriter writes non-melodic melodies, but wants someone to come along and SING them melodically?
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Sort of
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun
Of course we could just record midi and audio without click, and without regard to a DAW's timline/beatline. That's what most people do today when the feel a DAW's click/beat is not right for them.
But people like me, want the best of both worlds. Musical/human tempochanges (made easy) and the ability to quantize midi/audio, slave delay-tempos to song and more.
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I Agree.
I'm going to think about this some more. These guys here at Reaper are the best we've got. If they're waiting for users to grasp it before they implement, I realize we'll need to make these more flexible tools ourselves; I would try to think about it and describe it, but I'd be shooting myself in the foot, cuz maybe I'll end up needing to do it and pay for it. Ouch! Trouble is its awfully formidable. I remember those teams of 3-D programmers who made the Amiga 3-D animation programs, when stuff like that went for $100,000. and they knocked the price down to $100.00 Users wouldn't have supported that or understood it, but it was just fun for the college guys to mess with so they did it. This is a case like that, except now everyone is stuck with windows OS.
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01-03-2011, 08:55 PM
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#114
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 192
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I'm very new to Reaper actually, and my poor eyesight makes learning new stuff hard, but correct me if I'm wrong, but if we create our own GUI that can spit out a series of timeline positions in some standard clock format, then various actions in Reaper can be automated using this set of points? I haven't studied the actions list, but... I'm assuming you could, as a set of repeated actions for example, import sample clips to them, or create midi note events at them..
Maybe what I'm after goes beyond the basic purposes of a DAW and a plug-in, and is in some nether world between the two....
Last edited by jesussaddle; 01-03-2011 at 11:43 PM.
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03-09-2012, 01:11 PM
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#115
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,167
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I just learned that Samplitude can do this in the same manner which I initially illustrated. Here is a demo of the functionality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT9ECtYBaZs
I'd still be super happy to have tempo markers behave like this.
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03-09-2012, 01:57 PM
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#116
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,923
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Digital Performer had this feature and it was great
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03-10-2012, 01:24 PM
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#117
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 7,318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Youn
I just learned that Samplitude can do this in the same manner which I initially illustrated. Here is a demo of the functionality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT9ECtYBaZs
I'd still be super happy to have tempo markers behave like this.
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Oh yes +1
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Reaper x64, win 11
Composer, text-writer, producer
Bandcamp
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03-18-2012, 04:45 PM
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#118
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Super Moderator (no feelings)
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: On or near a dike
Posts: 9,834
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Discussion transfer from IID#2966
Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun
More advanced: The warp-method could be set differently, using curves. That's how music is..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomm
+1
yes, we can currently do linear tempo changes, so stretching/warping should behave correctly in that case as well.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yep
Something along these lines would be incredibly helpful when trying to map a project to a "live" solo performance (e.g., an acoustic guitarist/singer recorded without a click).
So far as I can tell, the best ways to tempo-map a project in REAPER currently involve create tons of markers and then slicing the track item into measures (examples):
http://en.wikiaudio.org/Reaper:Tempo_map
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar1...-tech-0311.htm
These methods are fairly easy and doable when you are working with 4/4 material that has consistent and audible measure-divisions. The problem is threefold:
1. It is extremely difficult to "adjust" the resulting tempo map if you guessed your measure-divisions incorrectly (e.g. a "free-time" solo or mixed-tempo/mixed time-signature project where the best measure divisions are not always obvious until you start adding other tracks)
2. It severely restricts overall functionality with regards to project markers, take-management, item-divisions, etc. I.e., the kinds of material where this would be most useful are also often the kinds of things where markers, take-splits, etc are also common.
3. It makes for really ugly and difficult-to-manage projects when you have to set markers and split takes at every measure division/tempo change.
I suspect that there is already an easier and more elegant way to do this with REAPER's current capabilities, but I haven't been able to figure it out.
3. It's a really ugly and inelegant
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03-20-2012, 04:32 PM
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#119
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 346
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+yes for tempo marker stretch
Using "create measure from time selection" I make tempo maps all the time--I start with live performance then match the grid to it. However, changing a tempo in the tempo map involves removing and redoing all the tempo changes after the tempo marker so, yes, I would love to have tempo marker stretch. I think logic has this.
Also, having curved envelopes between tempo change would help match flowing tempo changes.
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03-20-2012, 08:52 PM
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#120
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,923
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the issue of curves is complicated - recall that "straight" lines actually result in a curve (as the rate of change varies with the tempo)
supposedly linear changes (where bpm really do change linearly with respect to time)are curved as well - if it takes 60 seconds to double from 60 to 120 it will take 120 seconds to double again.
DP had curvature - it was rarely useful - most any natural playing could be well approximated with "straight" segments...
Last edited by semiquaver; 03-20-2012 at 08:59 PM.
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