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Old 08-31-2016, 10:06 AM   #1
EpicSounds
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Default Second pass rendering for loops (DONE 6.20)

Musicbynumbers wrote this in one of the Pre-release threads but I couldn't find a thread in requests


Quote:
Please consider implementing what is commonly called "2nd pass render" option


what's it do?
It means that upon rendering, reaper will first play the render area through once and on the 2nd time, will render the audio.

What's it used for?
It's used to make sure that effects (like reverb, delays etc) have had time to build up to their full amount over time.

This means that if you are trying to create seamless loops (where the start should have the same amount of reverb on it as the end of the loop) then 2nd pass can do this.

Without 2nd pass the start of the loop is dry as it has not had time to build up delays and reverbs yet.

At the moment we have to copy the loop 2 times and render both loops out and edit it to just the last of the 2 loops. This would stop that.

Another use is in games you need sample accurate loops and as soon as you use any EQ or processing that can cause "phase distortion", you then can't render out the loop in one pass as the frequencies are the sound are now shifted depending on frequency and leave "holes" in the sound on looping.

Anyway.. please devs, it's a bigger and hopefully all you have to do there is make reaper play through once before rendering on the 2nd time round

Here's a video I just made on the current workflow for creating seamless loops. The process takes many steps and second bounce rendering would save a lot of time.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahsbmzAqXUM




=================

Done in 6.20
Thank you devs!
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Last edited by EpicSounds; 01-21-2021 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 08-31-2016, 10:13 AM   #2
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Yes. Please. This would be very useful.
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Old 09-02-2016, 07:55 AM   #3
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This would be fantastic.
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Old 09-11-2016, 05:20 PM   #4
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What is it really for?
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Old 09-11-2016, 06:11 PM   #5
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I can see some use for that.
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Old 09-11-2016, 07:54 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
What is it really for?
its for making seamless wet loops without any extra steps. Instead of exporting a 3-bar loop, reimporting, cutting out bar 1 and 3, then exporting as a second file.

It's not a big deal for a few files once in a while but sample libararies and games are made with hundreds of these kinds of files.
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Old 09-12-2016, 12:09 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicSounds View Post
...files.
Thank you for the explanation. Yeah, it should be a good thing. +1 for this FR.
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:00 AM   #8
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+1
Would be very handy for loop based music.
Should also be build into the freeze-render functions...
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Old 01-05-2017, 11:05 AM   #9
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Bookmarking this thread so I can bump next time if no miracle happens soonish

(aka +1)
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Old 04-08-2017, 02:13 AM   #10
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Bump!

This is an absolute must for loop makers from music libraries to sound design for games.

It's such a big win for hopefully not that much work.
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Old 04-08-2017, 08:59 AM   #11
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YES PLEASE!!!
+1,000,000
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Old 04-09-2017, 12:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
Bump!

This is an absolute must for loop makers from music libraries to sound design for games.

It's such a big win for hopefully not that much work.
Absolutely agree.

Reaper NEEDS THIS. COME ON. PLEASE. Automation clips happened.

Anything is possible This needs to happen! Second pass rendering is stupidly obviously essential.
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Old 04-09-2017, 03:00 PM   #13
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Yes please. I have a (buggy) complex custom action to accomplish this, please make it so I don't have to use it any more
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Old 04-09-2017, 03:01 PM   #14
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I should add that I'm a sound designer for games, and that seamless looping is at the core of what we do
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Old 04-09-2017, 03:34 PM   #15
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+1
Game sound designers are increasingly ditching ProTools, etc for Reaper, this feature would be a great way to acknowledge and encourage these users
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Old 04-09-2017, 03:49 PM   #16
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Seamless looping and game audio people won't stay long in Reaper unless things change imho. This feature needs to be added.
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Old 04-10-2017, 01:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowellben View Post
Seamless looping and game audio people won't stay long in Reaper unless things change imho. This feature needs to be added.
I'll add that when I deal with "converts" after about a week of being amazed they finally ask about glitch free rendering of loops and then I have to show them the laborious workarounds.

They still love reaper but this feature would be a quick win to their hearts devs!
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Old 04-15-2017, 05:23 AM   #18
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Also for sound design for games, where you create loops of ambiences for games and have reverb set up for example. This would greatly help and speed up workflow.

+1
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Old 09-21-2017, 05:00 AM   #19
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Adding my vote for these features
+1
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Old 09-21-2017, 12:56 PM   #20
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Yes, please. Endless loops for endless fun.

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Old 09-21-2017, 03:15 PM   #21
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why not ! after area selection tool is done and grid values on transport bar ! :P
this sounds scriptable ! probably it could be suggested/ requested in Script Forum Section
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:19 AM   #22
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+1 always wanted something like this but never thought of doing it this way!
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:56 PM   #23
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so whatever happened to this..?
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Old 12-10-2018, 07:35 PM   #24
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Nothing at the moment but I'm hoping Justin might see this thread now that it's been bumped.

Not having this causes me to have to render out the files then edit and render again in a different project.

It literally quadruples the work load to get loops done properly without it.

Please Justin/Schwa.. hear our cries!
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Old 12-11-2018, 12:52 PM   #25
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Perhaps even "nth pass rendering" in cases where the verb/whatever takes more than one loop to come to full fruition?
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Old 03-26-2019, 05:12 AM   #26
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I sincerely hope this gets added. I am one of many who are trying to move from another DAW (in my case, Logic) to 100% Reaper, and this is a huge-to-us feature that would bring Reaper that much closer to being the best DAW out there.
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Old 03-26-2019, 11:47 AM   #27
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This really needs to be added
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Old 03-26-2019, 12:34 PM   #28
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It seems like a perfect fit for Reaper. One of those technical functions that if you need it, you need it.

+1
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:22 PM   #29
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I remember FL Studio 8 having this feature. I can definitely see the use for it.
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Old 03-27-2019, 01:30 AM   #30
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Me too.

This would save hours of time as I currently have to create a secondary project every time I've got a bunch of loops for games that need to seamlessly loop or that have some form of non linear processing on them.

Please devs! Hopefully it's not too hard.
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Old 03-27-2019, 06:58 AM   #31
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I have been thinking about this and I wonder if anyone Could make a licecap showing how logic or other daws do this?

The most natural way would be a render option, selected time line render 2 times and a 3rd time for the tail.

An option in render settings to keep all rendered cycles, just tail or just second cycle or both.

There is another related feature which I sometimes need which would be render repeating several Cycles of the time selection. Since i want to ear the loop repeating N cycles .. instead of arranging them my self and then delete them after.

The second pass feature could also happen on apply take FX to tail to new take, to second pass or both ..

What could be the best approaches you can think of?

Last edited by deeb; 03-27-2019 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 03-27-2019, 08:30 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
<proposal>
+1 to all of that, though I'll again suggest 'start rendering on Nth time through loop' instead of hard-coding '2nd time', for cases where the reverb tail lasts longer than one loop.

There's also the question of how to handle these settings across a large project with lots of rendered clips. Presumably what you proposed was a global choice for rendering the entire project. Seems the appropriate choice, especially for a v1.0. I don't know if sound designers might want some kind of matrix instead for more complicated projects.
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Old 03-27-2019, 10:01 AM   #33
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Could you elaborate on 3rd and more pass renderings?

I understand how a 2nd-pass-rendering would work and what you could achieve with that, but not the benefits of more passes.
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Old 03-27-2019, 10:54 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mespotine View Post
Could you elaborate on 3rd and more pass renderings?
Say you want to generate a 2-second long looping clip of the sound of a hammer on an anvil, but the decay on the reverb is like 10 seconds long. In that case, 2nd-pass rendering will hear the reverb of one previous hammer blow only. You'd want to use the 5th or 6th pass to properly capture all the previous strikes. Whether anyone would ever notice, or whether this really matters... not sure. It seems like especially with complicated convolution reverbs that include echos and so forth you might want this. And since (presumably) 99% of the implementation work is already done to handle 2nd pass rendering, it seems like an easy bonus to do Nth instead.

But I'm not a sound designer (usually). Maybe most use cases here don't involve situations where the reverb decay is longer than the clip length.
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Old 03-27-2019, 11:16 AM   #35
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wow--lolz =what an absolute mess of a very simple proceedure!
this can be done in a variety of ways--

imo, the better method being what soundforge does..user simply sets 2 regions..1 for a sustaining event,the other is the releasing event....a set # of repeats can be set with prefs... and micro loop zero crossfading is done by a simplified loop tuner..which offsets and crossfades both sides of a waveform..
it's sooo easy like that^..imo.
rs5k can loop easy--but does not write any markers,or show any playback line..currently..


the real trick is basically getting the zero crossings to line up--they do not even have to be zero crossings,just simply be a 'continuous waveform'....with stereo files this is harder,because 2 channels can be offsetting the crossovers...per channel.

simplez,right?

*edit afterthought: this soundforge loop proceedure can be emulated with sws playlisting in theory+practice..i thunk..

Last edited by Bri1; 03-27-2019 at 11:23 AM. Reason: 1xtra
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Old 03-27-2019, 11:38 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
wow--lolz =what an absolute mess of a very simple proceedure!
this can be done in a variety of ways--
: ) it's not the method showed in the video, also useful but for different results! right?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bri1 View Post
edit afterthought: this soundforge loop proceedure can be emulated with sws playlisting in theory+practice..i thunk..
m o r e . i n f o . a b o u t .t h i s . p l e a s e !

PS: Soundforge your prefered audio editor to use with Reaper?
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:37 PM   #37
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Another enhancement suggestion for the FR:


Limit second pass rendering to last X seconds
If you know that your reverb tail is only 2 seconds long for a usual mix it would be sufficient to just prerender the last, say, 8 seconds to get a proper tail instead of a complete first run. This would benefit rendering timing for CPU-heavy longer loops.

Last edited by Luster; 03-27-2019 at 01:03 PM. Reason: More precise wordening
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luster View Post
Limit second pass rendering to last X seconds
How would this be different than adding a tail in render settings?
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:57 PM   #39
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Quote:
m o r e . i n f o . a b o u t .t h i s . p l e a s e !

PS: Soundforge your prefered audio editor to use with Reaper?

nope. but,imo,sf is a proper tool in this department-reaper currently is not.
but,why not? loops are as old music itself...sighz..lolz
as suggested previous> "this can be done in a variety of ways".
esc does this nice also..dedicated loop tuning etc..

deeb,do you have any experience of sws region playlists?
if not,then get on it m8 =learn and experience for yourself,as it's a better teacher,imo. (found a bug? feel like reporting it? either do it,or not!)

1 must put in the brain efforts,as well the touchy feely stuff..
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Old 03-27-2019, 12:59 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxAsteria View Post
How would this be different than adding a tail in render settings?
The FR is about loops. So it's putting the tail in the beginning.
Instead of rendering a complete first pass it may be enough to just use the last seconds.
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